rigorousintuition.ca

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:46 pm**

Family cleared in JonBenet Ramsey’s death

New DNA test finds no link, DA says in letter to Colorado girl’s father

MSNBC and NBC News
updated 12:26 p.m. PT, Wed., July. 9, 2008

DENVER - Newly discovered DNA evidence in the notorious JonBenet Ramsey murder case does not match any Ramsey family members or anyone in law enforcement DNA databases, NBC affiliate KUSA reported Wednesday.

The discovery, from a new testing method, prompted the Boulder district attorney’s office to release a letter officially clearing the Ramsey family, including John, Patsy and their immediate relatives, of any involvement in the December 1996 death of 6-year-old JonBenet.

John and Patsy Ramsey, who died in 2006, had been the subject of intense suspicion in the disappearance of their daughter, a beauty queen whose innocent face smiled out at Americans in countless news reports for a dozen years.

But in a letter to John Ramsey, Boulder District Attorney Mary Lacy, who met with Ramsey and his defense attorneys Wednesday morning, apologized for the family’s ordeal and promised that in the future, they would be treated as victims, not as suspects.

Lacy based her decision, according to the letter, on the results of new DNA samples secured and tested at Bode Technology Group in Lorton, Va. The DNA technology, called “touch” analysis, was not available in 1996.

The recent testing was conducted on a different area of the girl's clothing, and it matches previous DNA tested from the child’s panties in 1997. It is DNA from an unknown male.

“There is now one step left in finding the killer of the little girl,” a source close to the investigation told KUSA. “And that’s to match the DNA to the right person.”

John Ramsey’s personal attorney, Lin Wood, would not comment, telling NBC News that he had not seen the letter. But Patsy Ramsey’s sister, Pam Paugh, said the exoneration was “a long time in coming and a very pleasant gift.”

The letter means “we have a killer on the loose,” Paugh said in an interview with MSNBC. “That killer remains at large.

“In the long run, we have to say [that] whoever did this to JonBenet, if they do not receive earthly justice, than clearly they are going to receive an afterlife justice that is not going to be pretty."

...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25608543

...apologized for the family’s ordeal and promised that in the future, they would be treated as victims, not as suspects

And not as possible accomplices?

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:03 pm**

Jeff wrote:And not as possible accomplices?

That is my question. I haven't thought John or Patsy personally murdered JonBenet for some time, but I am convinced they were involved in an elite pedophile ring and gave their little girl over to the Sr. White, father of Fleet who was with John when he found the child's body.

Here is a quote from Project Willow from an early JonBenet thread:

Quote:
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There is no evidence in pedophile research of strangulation as a means of sexual gratification for a child molester.
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Blahh. Bullshit, any sexual device or procedure that is used among adults has also been used by pedophiles with kids. If you can imagine it, it's been done.

Yes, I remember a woman who came forward, a survivor, who had some evidence but she was largely ignored.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the woman, detectives also said they didn't contact or investigate several people whose names she gave them and refused to say if they had interviewed others.

Police also declined her offer to show them evidence, including a card sent to her the same week she came forward with her allegations.

That card, sent to her by a member of her family, contains a large picture of a cartoon bear holding a pink heart. She earlier came foward with claims that members of her family involved her in a child sexual explotation ring.

A pink heart was also reportedly found written on the back of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey 's hand when her body was found on Dec. 26, 1996.

The only word written on the card is the first-name signature of the sender.

The woman said she offered Boulder detectives other evidence of alleged threats against her but was told to give them to police in California. Some of those messages, according to documents shown to the Times-Call, invoke the names of people with "lots of money" and connections in the Boulder Police Department.

Jeanne Adams, an Ogden, Utah-based advocate for survivors of ritual abuse who accompanied the woman to Boulder, called her story credible.

"I have listened to her story and she has shared some information with me," Adams said. "As a ritual abuse survivor, she is very credible, and her story is consistent with that of other survivors."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe Jonbenet was killed accidentally during a Christmas ritual. The Ramsey's were more than likely hosts, and when their daughter succumbed to the uses of a high ranking male in the cult, they had to scramble to figure out how to explain her death. Then it took them all night to figure it out and clean up the remnants of the night's festivities.

Just a hunch on my part, but it would fit.
PW

I am not sure at all that a sample of Fleet White's DNA was taken at the time of the muder, and it is almost a certainty that Fleet Sr.'s was not. So this could really be the end.

Here is the long thread from the time of John Mark Karr's arrest.

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:51 pm**

Just got finished reviewing some of the evidence in the case. Specifically, the construction of the garotte found by the body. You can jump into this anywhere, obviously, but this seemed like a good place to start because if the argument made below is true, it clearly implicates the Ramsays and rules out the 'intruder' hypothesis almost as clearly.

At http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/ ... php?t=6109 the first poster (Delmar England) makes an argument to the effect that:

1. the garotte was incredibly poorly constructed, unsuited for any purpose associated with the actual cause of death, and thus was likely created after the fact as a distraction from the true cause of death;

2. the police (Lou Smit) terribly screwed up in not seeing this essential fact about the garotte, which anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of knots would have seen (makes you go hmm...);

3. The red herring aspect of the garotte dramatically increases the likelihood that the perpetrator was not an intruder, and therefore either someone in the family or someone known to the family; and

4. JBR was probably murdered by accident, though prior sexual assault (or even that evening) is not ruled out; the role of any sexual assault in her death is not established however.

So the police 'screwed up' again, it seems. Further down on the thread, it's claimed by another poster that there is evidence that Patsy staged the garrotte scene (fibers from here jacket found in the paint tote, on the blanket, in the duct tape and in the wrapper of the broker paintbrush handle)

Can anyone with knowledge of the crime show problems with guy's analysis? Thanks

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:14 pm**

bks wrote:Just got finished reviewing some of the evidence in the case. Specifically, the construction of the garotte found by the body. You can jump into this anywhere, obviously, but this seemed like a good place to start because if the argument made below is true, it clearly implicates the Ramsays and rules out the 'intruder' hypothesis almost as clearly.

At http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/ ... php?t=6109 the first poster (Delmar England) makes an argument to the effect that:

1. the garotte was incredibly poorly constructed, unsuited for any purpose associated with the actual cause of death, and thus was likely created after the fact as a distraction from the true cause of death;

2. the police (Lou Smit) terribly screwed up in not seeing this essential fact about the garotte, which anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of knots would have seen (makes you go hmm...);

3. The red herring aspect of the garotte dramatically increases the likelihood that the perpetrator was not an intruder, and therefore either someone in the family or someone known to the family; and

4. JBR was probably murdered by accident, though prior sexual assault (or even that evening) is not ruled out; the role of any sexual assault in her death is not established however.

So the police 'screwed up' again, it seems. Further down on the thread, it's claimed by another poster that there is evidence that Patsy staged the garrotte scene (fibers from here jacket found in the paint tote, on the blanket, in the duct tape and in the wrapper of the broker paintbrush handle)

Can anyone with knowledge of the crime show problems with guy's analysis? Thanks

First thing you have to remember is that Forums for Justice is a rabidly Patsy Ramsey-did-it-because-she-was-enraged-over-potty-issues, very, very pro Fleet White forum. Tricia, the owner, once accidentally admitted to knowing Fleet. All evidence pointing to a pedophile ring involving him and John Ramsey is assiduously deleted and any member trying to follow these lines of inquiry are banned.

See this thread. (Webbsleuths is the sister site to FFJ, both owned by Tricia Griffith)

Lou Smit was brought in by the BPD, but was later hired by the Ramseys.

Strangulation was the true cause of death. Dr. Cyril Wecht has insisted that JonBenet died of asphyxiation during "sex games". The "Mystery Woman" Nancy Krebs, a witness who came forward in the case, claimed she was a child victim of a pedo ring involving Fleet White and John Ramsey, in which it was SOP to "strangle" the child in order to elicit a sexual response. Krebs thinks JonBenet was accidentally killed this way and then hit over the head to cover it up. This fits with the evidene-there was hardly any blood from the head injury, indicating she was dead or nearly dead when it occurred. The garrote was placed on her to expain her neck injuries. (curiously, JonBenet was buried with a scarf) It is entirely possible, even probable, that Patsy staged the garrotte herself, just not for the reason insisted upon by FFJ.

Read Nancy Krebs' interview with Boulder Police here:

JonBenet Ramsey Wiki under the heading Boulder Police Department Interviews.(PDF. The transcripts used to be hosted in html format at FFJ but I can no longer find them)

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:36 am**

Thanks, sunny. The poster did offer an argument for cause of death that included strangulation but not by the garrotte, as he holds to his contention that the garotte as constructed could not have been used in the way suggested by authorities.

Do you happen to know if Nancy Krebs' therapist was ever asked (and if she was whether she confirmed) whether Krebs had mentioned being abused by Fleet White Jr. and Sr. prior to JBR's death? Seems that a great deal hangs on that.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:39 am**

An article in the Daily Camera says that a public exoneration of any suspects like this is uncommon. Usually a suspect would only be exonerated by the conviction of someone else.

It’s also not clear that Boulder police embrace Lacy’s public exoneration.

In a statement released by Chief Mark Beckner on Wednesday, he called the DNA that Lacy used as evidence to eliminate the Ramseys “a significant finding.” But he didn’t echo or acknowledge Lacy’s opinion or issue a similar apology. He declined all further comment.

But experts also said the letter — and subsequent exoneration — wouldn’t prevent prosecutors from ever trying a member of the Ramsey family. If there was enough evidence to support bringing murder charges against them, Lacy’s letter alone wouldn’t be enough to raise reasonable doubt.

“Public announcements don’t control the outcomes of a trial,” said Trip DeMuth, a former Boulder prosecutor who worked on the Ramsey case. “I am not in the camp that believes that a public announcement of innocence makes it impossible to change your mind later.”

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008/ju ... sting-imp/

Odd statement by Patsy's sister Pam Paugh (with an incorrect headline -- Patsy was smiling before the apology):

"For the past four or five nights, I have been dreaming about nothing but Patsy. She was smiling, she was happy, telling me everything was OK, everything was good, this stuff on Earth doesn't matter.

And then this call comes today."

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2 ... fter-says/

Does "this stuff on Earth doesn't matter" include JonBenet's death, or just being accused of it?

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:03 pm**

bks wrote:Do you happen to know if Nancy Krebs' therapist was ever asked (and if she was whether she confirmed) whether Krebs had mentioned being abused by Fleet White Jr. and Sr. prior to JBR's death? Seems that a great deal hangs on that.

Nancy said so herself in her BPD interview. The abuse from Sr. was ongoing, beginning at a sickeningly young age, while Fleet Jr. raped her once, when she was in her early teens, iirc.

Avalon, that is a very interesting developement in re BPD. Of course pro-Ramsey forces will insist they are bitter and bring up all the mistakes they made during the investigation, and they did, but I think it's important if for no other reason than it will somewhat dampen the universal declaration of innocence coming out of the DA's office.

This "touch DNA" should be understood in context. It truly does not exonerate anyone, only emphasizes the prospect that there is an additional suspect involved.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:08 pm**

I'm reading the Krebs interviews, and it was Lee Hill, I think, who says to the police that Krebs told her therapist the Whites had abused her well prior to 1995. Maybe she says this as well, but I believe it's Hill who first mentions this.

If it's true she told her therapist about the abuse in 1990, it would greatly help credibility for her claims that White was an abuser, obviously. What I'm asking is whether her therapist has corroborated this.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:16 pm**

sunny,

I see an article that reports her therapist did support her claims. Thanks for the help thus far.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:27 pm**

bks wrote:If it's true she told her therapist about the abuse in 1990, it would greatly help credibility for her claims that White was an abuser, obviously. What I'm asking is whether her therapist has corroborated this.

Oops, I'm sorry I misunderstood you. Yes, if you read on in the interview they are actually waiting for her therapist records to be faxed to them, which prove she had made these claims prior to the death of JonBenet.

BTW, I found the transcripts hosted a FFJ.

Nancy Krebs BPD interview

Here is the transcript to a radio interview Nancy did with a woman named Mary Suma, "Mame" on the internet.

MAME: Right, right. You have turned over, you have chronicled and archived, with your therapist, documents, photographs, some, not really medical records, well Some medical records, school records, throughout the years and you have turned all of that over.

MW And I have signed a release for my therapist for all my records to the Boulder Police Dept. There's nothing that I have that I want to hide.

eta: I see you've found what you were looking for. Bienkowski was also threatened by members of Nancy's family, if you haven't come across that yet.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:56 pm**

Yup, saw that.

What reasons did the Boulder police ultimately give for discounting her and Krebs?

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:03 pm**

sunny wrote:This "touch DNA" should be understood in context. It truly does not exonerate anyone, only emphasizes the prospect that there is an additional suspect involved.

Agreed.

I would presume that since the 'touch' DNA results can rule someone out from having made the 'touch', these same results can be used to identify the person who did so.

And, since it's an open murder investigation, requests for DNA samples can still be made or otherwise obtained, and charges can still be brought.

So, what this says to me is that the investigation can once again be actively pursued using full investigatorial and prosecutorial authority.

If this is not the case, one would need to wonder about the objectivity/competence of the BPD and/or the DA.

Physical evidence.

Yup, it can work if the proper investigative process is followed.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:28 pm**

bks wrote:Yup, saw that.

What reasons did the Boulder police ultimately give for discounting her and Krebs?

Just that she was "unstable" and her claims were not credible. She had made some allegations along these lines concerning her family members in San Luis Obispo, California and the PD there, without investigating, had given her a "crazy" classification. (I can't remember the official designation) Boulder used this to discredit her, and they never aggressively investigated her claims either.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:01 pm**

I find the timing of this "revelation" to be amusing. The media must be running out of missing/dead blonde girls/young women stories to lead their "news" broadcasts, and with summer quickly speeding towards the primaries, well, I guess someone gave the order "SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING NOW!!!"

So we "dig up" Jon Benet Ramsey.

Any updates on the romantic relationship between John Ramsey and the mother of the missing/assumed dead blonde cheerleader from Texas who disappeared on a class trip? Can't remember the name off hand, but I know I can count of you guys to refresh my tired old memory cells. But I found that arrangement to be somewhat weird.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:09 pm**

Asta wrote:Any updates on the romantic relationship between John Ramsey and the mother of the missing/assumed dead blonde cheerleader from Texas who disappeared on a class trip? Can't remember the name off hand, but I know I can count of you guys to refresh my tired old memory cells. But I found that arrangement to be somewhat weird.

Natalie Holloway from Alabama. "Dr. Phil" has claimed she was abducted into a forced prostitution ring. As far as I know, her mother and Ramsey are still an item.