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I'm hoping for input on this idea as a possible solution, let me know if it's completely screwy or not: Take vast amounts of the money being spent on military offense/defense, and buy out as many as possible of those Palestinians who want to destroy Israelis, giving them enough strictly-purposed resources and seed money to emigrate to a new "Palestine" located far away in a sparsely-populated land, the infrastructure for which would also be built using capital transferred from war funds. How to convince Palestinians who will obviously find the idea repellent and passive and an unmanly/ungodly act of surrender or whatever: Use their own arguments, compare their situation to that of the Jews, and plead with them not to make the same mistakes that Jews and others on behalf of Jews have made, to be wiser than the Jews were, to choose life not land, to beat Israelis to the punch. Meaning: Jews could have opted to establish a state of Israel in Uganda or elsewhere but didn't, Jews persecuted by the Nazis could have been deported to Madagascar or elsewhere before the extermination began but weren't, Jews could have been ransomed to safety during WWII more often than they were. So basically, the message would be: Be better than the Zionists. Is this basic idea unprecedented? Is it totally fucking bonkers and/or unfeasible? Is it worth trying to develop as an actual strategy? If you see any problematic assumptions in the idea, any potential for backfiring, trust me I know -- the motive behind the idea is not to assign blame for the past and present accurately one way or the other, but to find an improbably simple way to solve the crisis, period. And I really have no horse in the race, so please don't infer any kind of bias in me one way or the other. I simultaneously believe everyone is to blame and no one is at fault.

It's completely screwy

kenoma wrote:It's completely screwy

Okay, and I can obviously see why it might be since it's my idea, but...why?

If the actual issue were that the Palestinians lacked a place to call their own, it'd be a wonderful plan. In that case, though, original partition would have served, and we'd not be having this discussion. The actual issue is the anti-semitism of the Palestinians and the Arabs, and their desire to prevent the Jews from having a place of their own.

Please, JAHWEH, you fuckwit, not this bullshit discussion again...

Sepka wrote:If the actual issue were that the Palestinians lacked a place to call their own, it'd be a wonderful plan. In that case, though, original partition would have served, and we'd not be having this discussion. The actual issue is the anti-semitism of the Palestinians and the Arabs, and their desire to prevent the Jews from having a place of their own.

In the context of the idea, what matters isn't whether Palestinians actually do or do not lack a place of their own, but only whether the most militant Palestinians believe they do. The way I see it, whatever the solution it's unlikely to involve militant Palestinians living adjacent to militant Israelis. The idea wouldn't be to rectify the situation according to justice, or even reason. All that would matter, to use your words, is Palestinian anti-semitism: Namely, appealing to it, using it. All that would matter is if it would work or not. If what you say is right -- the crisis is all about Palestinians who want to deny Jews something, and nothing one could provide them will make that go away -- then yeah that would comprise a crippling hole in the idea. I think it's about more than that, however.

Penguin wrote:Please, JAHWEH, you fuckwit, not this bullshit discussion again...

Right, please...so STFU, please? I mean that nicely. I'm hoping for input on a specific idea, input for me, input from everyone, no matter how right or wrong the input is. I'm not looking to create a general discussion. I know it'll wind up going there anyway, but I'd like to forestall that as long as possible. Thanks.

I have a better suggestion. In the first place, the Jews should have been given the entire country of Germany after WWll for compensation. Well, and the Poles, and all the rest of the victims It isn't too late. Offer either the Israelis and the other victims a piece of Germany for every victim and survivor of victims. Or, if they collectively decide that they don't want it, divide it between the Palestinians. Problem solved.

FourthBase wrote:giving them enough strictly-purposed resources and seed money to emigrate to a new "Palestine" located far away in a sparsely-populated land.

There is no such sparsely populated land anymore except parts of Sinai. but the Sinai is a total desert wasteland.

It's pretty easy to solve. Israel must withdraw to their 1967 borders, recognize Palestine as a sovereign state grant equal-citizenship to Israeli-Palestinians if Palestine does the same to Israeli's living in Palestine. Then you pay for some of Israeli transportation highways and a few of the settlements to be dismantled in Palestine. Then you tear down this wall. No, I don't mean a metaphorical wall.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

chiggerbit wrote:I have a better suggestion. In the first place, the Jews should have been given the entire country of Germany after WWll for compensation. It isn't too late. Offer either the Israelis a piece of Germany for every Israili. Or, if they collectively decide that they don't want it, divide it between the Palestinians. Problem solved.

Great sentiment, but even if my idea is unfeasible it still poses a neutral and relatively open destination for a new Palestine, like Uganda had been for Jews who weren't obsessed with Israel being located in its original place. Also, practically speaking, Germany would just be another frying pan -- sure many Germans might be willing to sacrifice room to satisfy their collective guilty feelings, but there are still a shitload of virulent racists there who'd attack either group of semites.

Occult Means Hidden wrote:There is no such sparsely populated land anymore except parts of Sinai. but the Sinai is a total desert wasteland.

There is no sparsely populated land on the entire planet? There might be a good reason to keep a new Palestine close, but I think it's just as important to keep these two groups (their radicals, especially) far the fuck away from each other.

It's pretty easy to solve. Israel must withdraw to their 1967 borders, recognize Palestine as a sovereign state grant equal-citizenship to Israeli-Palestinians if Palestine does the same to Israeli's living in Palestine. Then you pay for some of Israeli transportation highways and a few of the settlements to be dismantled in Palestine. Then you tear down this wall. No, I don't mean a metaphorical wall.

That would solve it? You think the violence and wars would end after that?

FourthBase wrote:If what you say is right -- the crisis is all about Palestinians who want to deny Jews something, and nothing one could provide them will make that go away -- then yeah that would comprise a crippling hole in the idea. I think it's about more than that, however.

I'd hope to be wrong. I don't think I am, though.

For what it's worth, there's a very similar plan advertising for subscribers now and again in the 'Jerusalem Post'. It's a privately funded plan intended to raise money to settle Palestinians in (IIRC) Jordan or Egypt, where they would eventually become citizens.

last I checked no stakeholders were accepting suggestions from the peanut gallery. I agree though that the time has come to settle this matter, in any way possible. At the least the Palestinians need to be relocated to somewhere minimally habitable and out of range. It's almost unbelievable the conditions they endure presently.

nomo wrote:...Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Considering the present atmosphere in this country, I'm not sure a subnation of Palestinians would fare too much better in any area of America. Canada, maybe? Mexico, since the temperature might be more suitable? Obviously, any theoretical destination would have to consent to an allocation of land. Otherwise it would just create a new war.