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next round ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:28 am
by hava1
Hi again. formally cease fire, at last. Could the next round be Egypt ?
just tossing...

Lurking sometimes, and writing elsewhere...

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:25 am
by Col. Quisp
Cease fire already over...I can't tell who fired first..lots of conflicting reports. Why can't we get the truth for once? I read Israel is dropping white phosporous bombs. What the hell is going on? And now North Korea is threatening to nuke South Korea? Can we say WWIII?

ISRAEL INITIATES UNILATERAL CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA; ARMY REMAINS READY TO CONTINUE

Israeli forces initiated a unilateral cease-fire in the Gaza Strip on Sunday at 2:00am local time. Although Hamas had rejected the pause in hostilities, the first several hours of truce produced no rocket fire. Then, at about 9:00am local time, a barrage of at least six rockets was unleashed against the southern Israeli town Sderot. Previously, rockets had been fired immediately after Israel’s prime minister announced the plan and the time it would go into effect. There was also an exchange of machinegun fire between Israeli soldiers and Hamas gunmen. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said on Saturday night that for the time being the army would remain in place as the response by Hamas was measured. The army remains prepared to resume fighting and even expand operations if the order is given. Barak insisted that the military goals of the operation had been met, although Hamas remains capable of firing rockets into Israel and Israel’s captive soldier, Gilad Shalit, appears no closer to being repatriated than he was at the start of Operation Lead Cast, which began on December 27. Palestinian sources say at least 1,200 people died in the fighting and 4,000 residential buildings were destroyed.


http://www.themedialine.org/news/news_mideast_daily.asp?Date=01/18/2009&category_id=8

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:48 am
by Joe Hillshoist
And now North Korea is threatening to nuke South Korea? Can we say WWIII?


WTF????

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:35 am
by Col. Quisp
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/01/19/200901190045.asp
is one source re Korea

Seoul on alert over N. Korea threats


The South Korean government has upped military readiness in response to North Korean threats of "total" confrontation, while stressing that it would remain calm and not overreact.

An unidentified spokesman for the chief of the General Staff of the North`s Korean People`s Army on Saturday delivered a message on the state-run Korean Central Broadcasting Station denouncing the South and declaring a showdown with the Lee Myung-bak administration.

"As Lee Myung-bak and his followers have chosen the road to confrontation with the help of outside powers, we have no other choice but to assume a full confrontational stance," the spokesman said.

The message also indicated that the North may attempt military provocation, as Pyongyang said that if further provoked, it would act to "maintain its territory in the West Sea" where the two Koreas remain at odds over naval demarcation.

The North, which protests the de-facto border set by the Northern Limit Line, claimed that the South has continuously invaded its maritime territory.

Naval ships from the two Koreas have engaged in a number of bloody clashes in the West Sea on North Korean provocation.

The confrontational statement came amid an inter-Korean deadlock that started shortly after President Lee`s inauguration in February last year.

The two Koreas clashed over Seoul`s new policy which, while open to dialogue, sees denuclearization coming ahead of all else. Ignoring the calls, Pyongyang demands Seoul first deliver on agreements reached between Kim Jong-il and Lee`s predecessors.

Experts yesterday ruled out the possibility of Pyongyang delivering on its threats, but the South Korean military has been put on high alert.

Cheong Wa Dae said the military would be "fully prepared" but would refrain from overreacting.

"We plan to maintain a low-pitched stance," an official said following emergency meetings.

The ruling Grand National Party`s response was more expressive.

The GNP yesterday severely upbraided the North, saying the Saturday statement mirrored North Korea`s fear and anxiety over the lack of dialogue with the South and the unwavering U.S.-South Korea alliance.

"It has painted itself into a corner, and now it has no idea how to get back to talks with Seoul. It also tried to sabotage the U.S.-South Korea alliance, but that did not work either, so we are seeing a very fearful and nervous North Korea," the party said in a statement.

It urged Pyongyang to return to inter-Korean talks.

"Only the United States and South Korea can help you at this time," the statement said.

In a separate statement on Saturday, Pyongyang said it would hang onto its atomic weapons program until it feels safe from what it called "an ever-present United States nuclear threat."

Hours before the People`s Army message, the North Korean Foreign Ministry declared that it may not abandon its nuclear weapons program even if it normalizes ties with the United States.

Pyongyang`s ties with Washington, despite several breakthrough denuclearization agreements, have remained cool under the outgoing U.S. president George W. Bush.

The impoverished communist state reportedly anticipates a softer Washington after President-elect Obama is sworn in this week so as to enlist more economic and political support from the world`s most powerful nation.

But Obama, despite his campaign promises to meet with the North Korean leader to settle the nuclear issue, has recently indicated that he may not be as accommodating as the North expects.

Secretary of State-designate Hillary Clinton in a confirmation hearing last week pledged to "aggressively" address denuclearization talks to get Pyongyang to give up its nuclear ambitions.

By Kim Ji-hyun

(jemmie@heraldm.com)


Looks like North Korea is waking up to Obama's true colors along with the rest of us!

Here's another story:


North Korea suggests bombs built

SEOUL: The North Korean military has declared an "all-out confrontational posture" against South Korea as an American scholar said North Korean officials told him they had "weaponised" enough plutonium for roughly four to six nuclear bombs.

US intelligence officials had previously estimated that the North had harvested enough fuel for six or more bombs, although it was never clear if the North constructed the weapons.

The scholar, Selig Harrison, said the officials had not defined what "weaponised" meant, but the implication was that they had built nuclear arms.

After the threats, made on Saturday, South Korea ordered its military to heighten vigilance along its heavily fortified border with North Korea, a spokesman with the South Korean military joint chiefs of staff said.

North Korea's saber-rattling towards the South has increased in intensity since the President, Lee Myung-bak, took office in Seoul a year ago, vowing to take a tougher stance on the North, reversing 10 years of his liberal predecessors' efforts to engage it with economic aid. But what made the threat on Saturday more worrisome to some South Korean analysts was the way it was delivered: in a statement read on North Korean television by a uniformed spokesman for the North's joint chiefs of staff.

Usually the North Korean Government issues written statements that are delivered by the country's state-controlled media.


http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/north-korea-suggests-bombs-built/2009/01/18/1232213448850.html

Looks like the Gaza situation has changed since the middle of the night...headlines say Gaza accepts cease fire...I'm not fully awake yet, after spending a sleepless night on the couch...what's going on over there?

ceasefire

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:19 am
by hava1
To the best of my understanding there is a mutual ceasefire, for the visit of those who must be obeyed (sarkozi, brown, merkel and Italian MP all came tonight to visit Olmert).
In the next two days they will decide how they want israel to stick it up to the USA, or something, and we'll know more.

I was thinking about Egypt, given the bizarre statements by Lieberman (our, not the american) against Egypt short before the war in Gaza, and the subtle game around the border policy of Egypt, the smuggling etc.
Mind u, Olmert is desperate, everything is possible.

I get the feeling, or paranoia, that the new administration is planning a big war, and ISrael will serve both as a side fire in the ME (to keep everyone busy) and lastly, perhaps as the dessert for whoever they really want to knock out. we might get a nuclear bomb from Russia or Pakistan here, who knows. And i would not be surprised if the bomb that falls here, chemical or so, is going to be "made in Israel"...

Its crazy here, i at least want to believe Obama wishes to avoid that, and so i am waiting for the 20th. Perhaps the warmongers are testing his command, and i hope he stands up and rises up to the worlds expectations.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:43 pm
by alwyn
Thanks for the update, Hava...

You said you're writing elsewhere, anything you'd like to link to?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:07 pm
by Joe Hillshoist
Cheers Col.

I seem to remember North Korea saying that sort of thing all the time years ago... I spose they do have the potential to use nukes now, possibly.

Anyway lets hope the ceasefire holds for a while.

Re: ceasefire

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:19 pm
by kenoma
hava1 wrote:To the best of my understanding there is a mutual ceasefire,


Not true - it was a unilateral "ceasefire" (already broken), with Israel maintaining the "right" to continue their murderous occupation of Gaza. Olmert and the rest of Israel made clear they had no intention of entering into mutual agreements with representatives of the untermenschen. Hamas and the other resistance organizations announced a separate seven-day ceasefire conditional upon the withdrawal of the Israeli terrorists from Gaza (something that is in line with international law).

hava1 wrote:for the visit of those who must be obeyed (sarkozi, brown, merkel and Italian MP all came tonight to visit Olmert).


Poor Israel: always being pushed around! (In fact that visit was about those leaders grovelling before the Israelis, promising their support in the war against legitimate Palestinian resistance -specifically by helping Israel in its war against the pseudo-threat of arms "smuggling").

Re: ceasefire

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:23 pm
by kenoma
...And I'm sorry, I know you're a respected contributor to this board, but in the present circumstances, this is nonsense bordering on obscenity:

hava1 wrote: I get the feeling, or paranoia, that the new administration is planning a big war, and ISrael will serve both as a side fire in the ME (to keep everyone busy) and lastly, perhaps as the dessert for whoever they really want to knock out. we might get a nuclear bomb from Russia or Pakistan here, who knows. And i would not be surprised if the bomb that falls here, chemical or so, is going to be "made in Israel"...


Without once acknowledging the utterly depraved conduct of your country's army in the Gaza strip over the last three weeks, or the equally depraved cheerleading of your country's media and the vast majority of its population, you ask us to entertain paranoid fantasies about poor little Israel being annihilated by Russian or Pakistani nukes - ludicrous scenarios I have never heard before even from the most paranoid Zionists. Consciously or not, you are reinforcing the now utterly discredited idea that Israel is essentially a victim state with only a precarious foothold in the imperial order of things. But the world has just watched while your country embarked on a murderous rampage on a defenceless people with complete impunity. Your country was able to repeatedly and deliberately attack UN compounds knowing that it would not suffer anything but the mildest of rebukes from the UN (everyone knows the war crimes charges will come to nothing). Your country was able to carry out its decimation of Palestinian infrastructure knowing that the EU, which paid for a good deal of that infrastructure, would just sit back and accept "Israel's right to self defence", and then pick up the tab for rebuilding that infrastructure. And not only was Israel not punished for its blatant and shameless war crimes - it was actually rewarded: the US and other Western powers have promised Israel assistance in preventing the smuggling of weapons over the Rafah crossing to the legitimate Palestinian resistance.
So please, hava1, spare us: don't expect an iota of sympathy from any right-thinking person when you propose these ludicrous fantasies about Israel as a country surrounded on all sides by enemies who want to annihilate it. Because not only are they completely divorced from reality - they are, whether you know it or not, an alibi for genocide.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:51 pm
by justdrew
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index_en.html

Unilateral + Unilateral = Bilateral
19/01/09

"Every cease-fire has two sides" said today former Knesset Member Uri Avnery, Gush Shalom activist. "A unilateral arrogant proclamation by Olmert and Barak, in front of the TV cameras, did not stop the shooting of missiles at the Negev, and it still continued this morning. Only when Hamas added a unilateral cease-fire of its own was a bilateral cease-fire created in practice, enabling the shooting to stop in practice.

At long last we have come to a moment of sanity, an end to the terrible blood-bath which shocked people all over the world and aroused them to come out in protest on the streets of cities across the globe – including on the streets of Israeli cities. But the bloodshed might burst out, even more terrible, should the government persist in the folly of ignoring the main fact: Hamas was and remains the dominant power in the Gaza Strip, even when its military power was damaged – due to a strong base of support among the Palestinian population. There is no solution – either to the immediate and very urgent problems or to the longer range – without talking to Hamas, either through mediators or directly.

Israeli troops must be immediately removed from the Gaza Strip, the siege removed, and the passages between the Strip and the outer world opened widely. The inhabitants of Gaza, like those of every other place in the world, have the full right to leave their country and return to it by land, sea, and air, revive and develop their economy by exporting their produce and importing whatever they need, without asking for anybody's permission.

Accelerated negotiations must be opened in order to return swiftly to their homes and families the Israeli soldier Gilead Shalit, captured by Hamas, and a significant number of Palestinians prisoners in the Israeli prisons. The government must pay the price fixed long ago for the release of Shalit, and the entire terrible war in Gaza had not changed it. The hypocritical argument of "blood on the hands", raised against such a deal, must be removed from the vocabularies once and for all. At least half of the 1300 Palestinians killed by the State of Israel in the past weeks were unarmed civilians, including hundreds of children. From now on, the term "blood on the hands" in the mouth of an Israeli politician or military officer would be a sad mocker of simple effrontery".
Image

Re: ceasefire

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:14 pm
by kenoma
hava1 wrote:To the best of my understanding there is a mutual ceasefire, for the visit of those who must be obeyed(sarkozi, brown, merkel and Italian MP all came tonight to visit Olmert).


The falsity of this insinuation that poor little Israel was somehow strongarmed into a truce by the Europeans has to be underscored.

This is what actually transpired:

Haaretz:


EU leaders commit to helping prevent Hamas from rearming
One day after Israel announced a unilateral cease-fire in the Gaza Strip, six key European leaders on Sunday pledged to work to prevent Hamas from rearming.

The commitments were offered both at the Sharm al-Sheikh summit in Egypt and at a meeting in Jerusalem with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

The six leaders - British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, French President Nicolas Sarkozy, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Italian President Silvio Berlusconi, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero and Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek, who currently holds the European Union's rotating presidency - offered to provide troops and technological assistance to prevent Hamas from smuggling weapons and terrorists into the Gaza Strip, in cooperation with Egypt and the United States. They expressed support for the cease-fire in Gaza and for an end to Palestinian rocket fire on southern Israel. Olmert said that on Saturday, he also received a letter from EU leaders pledging cooperation in halting the arms smuggling into Gaza.

At the start of the Jerusalem meeting, Olmert said that Israel has no intention of staying in the Gaza Strip or reconquering it, despite its three-week offensive on the Hamas-ruled coastal territory.

The six leaders met with Olmert following the Sharm al-Sheikh conference, where they spoke with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. During the meeting, Olmert reiterated his regret over the Palestinian civilians killed and wounded during Operation Cast Lead in Gaza.

"We did not want to hurt them or their children," he said. "They are the victims of Hamas."

None of the European leaders condemned Israel for these casualties.

After the meeting, Olmert said that Israel would withdraw its troops from Gaza soon.

At a press conference preceding a dinner in honor of the visiting European leaders, Sarkozy vowed that the European Union would never harm the security of Israel.

Sarkozy also said that France would be willing to provide monitors to prevent arms smuggling into Gaza and supply technology to help locate smuggling tunnels.
...
Merkel said that Israel has the right to live in peace and not under threats. Merkel added that arms smuggling into Gaza, whether by sea or by land, must be prevented and that Germany was willing to help address that matter if necessary.

Brown said that the European Union will do everything to support the cease-fire, as a step toward achieving a comprehensive peace.

The British prime minister called on Hamas to stop firing rockets on Israel and also expressed willingness to help in the effort to stop weapons smuggling into Gaza. And he urged Israel to open the border crossings into the coastal strip and to allow humanitarian aid in as soon as possible.

Berlusconi, who looked very tired during the press conference in Jerusalem Sunday, said that he was proud of the fact that it was he who put Hamas on the European Union's list of terrorist organizations. Berlusconi also promised that that he would work toward inducting Israel as a full member of the European Union.

The Italian leader also expressed willingness to provide military personnel to battle arms smuggling into Gaza. "When I heard about the rocket fire at Israel, I felt that it was a danger to Italy, and to the entire West," he said.

Zapatero, who had never visited Israel before Sunday, joined his colleagues in voicing his support for Israel, despite the harsh criticism he had expressed toward Israel during the three-week operation in Gaza. "I am moved that the cease-fire was announced when I came to Israel,"
he said, adding that he hoped for a renewal of the peace process.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:55 pm
by Joe Hillshoist
kenoma fuck off.

Now you are putting words in Hava1's mouth because she is living in Israel!!!

Thats one of the worst, lowest, piece of shit things I have seen on this board. And one of the few, thankfully.

What country do you live in?

I want to start abusing you cos of whatever evil your government has done. So come on out with it.

Re: ceasefire

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:22 pm
by epi
hava1 wrote:I get the feeling, or paranoia, that the new administration is planning a big war, and ISrael will serve both as a side fire in the ME (to keep everyone busy) and lastly, perhaps as the dessert for whoever they really want to knock out. we might get a nuclear bomb from Russia or Pakistan here, who knows. And i would not be surprised if the bomb that falls here, chemical or so, is going to be "made in Israel"...


I think that is entirely possible. Are you staying? If I had those feelings I would get out.

Santiago, September 12 (2003)
A Buenos Aires daily newspaper, InfoBae, has published an article today stating that the commander of Argentina’s armed forces, General Roberto Bendini, has warned that “small groups of Israelis” intend to take over the resources of Argentinean Patagonia. According to InfoBae, in a visit to combat units at the War School as well as in an article published in the military journal “Soldados”, Bendini explained the military’s current strategic policy and referred to the risks facing Patagonia. InfoBae reports that General Bendini explained to a group of captains that President Nestor Kirchner had “defined the aspirations on the part of foreign powers regarding Patagonia and the Littoral (Southern Argentinean coastline) as the principal conflict hypothesis facing the (Argentinean) armed forces”. The report stated that the military leader added that the activities of ´”small groups of Israelis” coming to Argentina “behind the curtain of tourism” are being watched. In spite of this (veil of tourism), the general said that “the supposed interest is in the largest continental reserve of potable water and hydrocarbons”, located in Patagonia.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:32 pm
by American Dream
InfoBAE wrote:
The commander of Argentina’s armed forces, General Roberto Bendini, has warned that “small groups of Israelis” intend to take over the resources of Argentinean Patagonia.


I think we should take this with a grain of salt. There is no doubt that Israeli operatives a re currently up to nefarious and secretive acts at many places around the globe. There is also no doubt that the Argentine military has long harbored out and out fascists, friends and ideological allies of National Socialists form Germany, who also make up a lot of crap to explain why somebody else is the problem.

So, that Israeli operatives are running money, guns, coke and ecstasy, engaging in sexual blackmail and "signals intelligence" gathering, no doubt.

That they intend to openly take over the Patagonia seems doubtful, however...

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:07 am
by kenoma
Joe Hillshoist wrote:kenoma fuck off.

Now you are putting words in Hava1's mouth because she is living in Israel!!!

Thats one of the worst, lowest, piece of shit things I have seen on this board. And one of the few, thankfully.


Fuck off yourself. I didn't put words in hava's mouth. I quoted her. I challenged factual inaccuracies (eg "mutual ceasefire") she presented. Her statement that EU leaders "must be obeyed" by Israel is absurd: I contested it on the basis that those leaders are entirely complicit with and enabling of Israeli war crimes: Olmert and his gang have nothing to fear from the EU, and they know it.
And it's indisputable that hava completely ignores the actual effects of the recent genocidal attack on Gaza and chooses to present instead a bizarre theory about Israel being attacked by Russian or Pakistani nukes. "Consciously or not" (to quote my original post) the effect of that is to occlude the actual reality that has just unfolded - naked Israeli aggression unfettered by the "international community" - by presenting an alternative narrative (Israel as potential victim of nuclear holocaust) that is based on nothing but completely implausible hypotheses.
So I'm not putting words in her mouth: I am saying she is ignoring the only thing that matters today about Israel - its unspeakable war crimes - and instead choosing to concentrate on a hypothetical scenario that is, quite frankly, bullshit. Had a Canadian or a Peruvian poster written what hava wrote, I would have responded in the same way. And if an American had responded to the Fallujah massacre by speculating on nuclear threats to the US, I would have called them on their bullshit too.
But in general terms, do I think citizens of the supremacist state of Israel have a particular moral duty to condemn their government's criminality as loudly and as frequently as possible? Absolutely. Don't you?


Joe Hillshoist wrote:What country do you live in?


Since you asked so nicely, Ireland.