Berlet: Conspiracies, Demonization & Scapegoating

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Berlet: Conspiracies, Demonization & Scapegoating

Postby American Dream » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:19 am

Ironic that Berlet does what those he critiques also do- taking valid critiques and then grossly overgeneralizing. Anti-Semitism is indeed one element of far-Right conspiracy discourse, but Berlet uses this problem to tar conspiracy investigators in general with this same brush.

Even though Berlet has sway with certain sectors of "the Left", I'm not sure that a wholesale railing against "the Left" nor simply tagging Berlet as an agent of the CIA or Israel are the best responses. Far more important is to respond with reason, utilizing a coherent argument grounded in solid evidence... >AD


Toxic to Democracy: Conspiracies, Demonization &
Scapegoating

by Chip Berlet
Political Research Associates
June, 2009


Executive summary:
http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/toxic ... m-exec.pdf

[The full text of the report may be
found here:
http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/toxic ... 2Dem-1.pdf]

Executive Summary

Even before Barack Obama was sworn in as the 44th
President of the United States the Internet was seething
with lurid conspiracy theories exposing his alleged
subversion and treachery. Among the many false claims:
Obama was not a proper citizen of the United States (and
his election as President should thus be overturned); he
was a secret, fundamentalist Muslim; he was a tool of
the New World Order in a plot to merge the government of
the United States into a North American Union with
Mexico and Canada.

Hours following a flubbed inaugural oath of office, the
Internet circulated claims that Obama was not really
President of the United States because the wording of
the oath of office had been scrambled by U.S. Supreme
Court Chief Justice John Roberts. A few days after the
inauguration came a warning that Obama planned to impose
martial law and collect all guns.

Many of these false claims recall those floated by
right-wing conspiracy theorists in the armed citizens
Militia Movement during the Clinton administration -
allegations that percolated up through the media and
were utilized by Republican political operatives to
hobble the legislative agenda of the Democratic Party.
Assertions that President Clinton assisted drug
smugglers, ran a hit squad that killed his political
enemies, and covered up the assassination of his aide
Vincent Foster first circulated on right-wing
alternative media, spread to right-wing information
networks, and eventually appeared in mainstream media
outlets.

A similar scenario could add to the already daunting
challenges of the Obama administration. When Obama's
"web-savvy" aides saw "conspiracy theories building up
on the internet," they staged a repeat swearing in as
"the fastest way to stop the speculation getting out of
control." Such events illustrate the power and
pervasiveness of conspiracism. What Richard Hofstadter
described as the "paranoid style" in U.S. right-wing
movements derives from belief in an apocalyptic struggle
between "good" and "evil," in which demonized enemies
are complicit in a vast insidious plot against the
common good, and against which the conspiracist must
heroically sound the alarm. As seen in the
aforementioned examples, this type of conspiracism can
move easily from the margins to the mainstream.

This study challenges the validity of conspiracy theory
as a form of political analysis, and traces the roots
and dynamics of conspiracism through United States
history. Drawing on his extensive scholarly as well as
popular writing on the topic, author Chip Berlet shows
that the development of modern conspiracismis rooted in
bigotry and that the conspiracist analytical model
itself encourages demonization and scapegoating of
blameless persons and groups. In so doing, conspiracism
also serves to distract society and its would-be agents
of change away from ongoing, structural causes of social
and economic injustices.

Examining various episodes spanning more than 200 years
of U.S. history, Toxic to Democracy demonstrates how
conspiracy theories have repeatedly garnered mass public
followings. Throughout, the basic dynamics of
conspiracism remained the same regardless of the
ideological leanings of the conspiracists, or the (often
interchangeable) identity of their targets. The
resurgence of conspiracy theories-on both the Right and
the Left - since the September 11, 2001 terrorist
attacks, and the tendency for antisemitic conspiracies
to surge during times of financial crisis, makes the
lessons of this study particularly urgent. What follows
is a summary of key findings from Toxic to Democracy:
Conspiracies, Demonization & Scapegoating:

THE CONSPIRACIST ANALYTICAL MODEL: TOOLS OF FEAR

The conspiracist narrative is built upon four key
elements, which Berlet calls "tools of fear": 1)
Dualism; 2) Scapegoating; 3) Demonization; and 4)
Apocalyptic Aggression.

Dualism is an overarching theme or "metaframe" in which
people see the world as divided into forces of good and
evil. Scapegoating is a process by which a person or
group of people are wrongfully stereotyped as sharing
negative traits and are singled out for blame for
causing societal problems, while the primary source of
the problems is overlooked or absolved of blame.
Demonization, a process through which people target
individuals or groups as the embodiment of evil,
facilitates scapegoating.

Even the most sincere and well-intentioned conspiracy
theorists contribute to dangerous social dynamics of
demonization and scapegoating. Apocalypticism, also
ametaframe, involves the expectation that dramatic
events are about to unfold during which a confrontation
between good and evil will change the world forever and
reveal hidden truths. Apocalyptic Aggression occurs when
scapegoats are targeted as enemies of the "common good,"
and this can lead to discrimination and violent acts.

INTERCHANGEABLE TARGETS/BROAD APPEAL

The way in which the tools of fear are employed allows
for scapegoat targets to change along with historic
circumstances, even as the process by which these
targets are vilified using the "Tools of Fear" remains
the same.

A central motif of the 1950s Red Scare was that the
enemy - communists, both at home and abroad - threatened
the common good. Today Arabs and Muslims are portrayed
in a similar demonizing way as an alien force conspiring
to destroy Western culture from without and within. It
is not that threats do not exist; it is that these
threats are hyperbolized in a way that harms civil
society and weakens homeland security.

The Christian Right, which in the 1960s mobilized to
battle "Godless Communism," now battles "Godless Secular
Humanism" which they see as supporting sinful abortion
and gay rights. Since these views are often wrapped
around conspiracist theories claiming liberal sedition
or satanic collaboration, the ability to resolve
disputes through civic compromise is hobbled.

THE TERROR ATTACKS ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2001 MOVED
CONSPIRACY THEORY TO CENTER STAGE IN THE UNITED STATES.


Immediately following the attacks, stories began to
circulate about 4,000 Jews being warned to avoid the
twin towers on 9/11. Reporters traced the contention
back to a series of rumors and claims by unnamed sources
that bounced around the Internet, becoming more
elaborate with each retelling. Within weeks of the 9/11
attacks, some on the Left circulated claims that
government officials were "Guilty for 9- 11." This has
turned into a "9/11 Truth Movement" where conspiracists
debate whether then-President Bush and Vice President
Cheney allowed the attacks to happen to gain political
advantage, or actually planted explosives to collapse
the World Trade Center and sent amissile into the
Pentagon. Outlandish conspiracies fingering then-Vice
President Dick Cheney and "the neoconservatives" have
been injected into mainstream anti-Iraq War venues and
documents. Sometimes these claims carry the baggage of
antisemitism.

CONSPIRACISM'S BIGOTED ROOTS

The roots of contemporary conspiracism can be traced
back more than 200 years to the French Revolution.
Conspiracists claimed the French Revolution was not due
to long simmering public resentment due to poverty and
despotism, but was orchestrated by the Illuminati, a
secret society evolved from the ranks of Freemasonry,
who were allegedly scheming to turn contented peasants
into violent rebels.

In the early 1900s, the merger of Freemason and Jewish
scapegoats took hold in the United States with the
publication of the influential hoax, entitled the
Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. The Protocols
purports to be the minutes of secret meetings of a
Jewish ruling clique conspiring to take over the world.
It incorporates many of the core conspiracist themes
outlined in the Freemason attacks, and overlays them
with antisemitic allegations. A common conspiracist
interpretation of the Protocols is that, peeling away
the layers of the Freemason conspiracy, past the
Illuminati, exposes a rotten Jewish core.

Some contemporary conspiracy theorists directly mention
the Protocols and claim they are an authentic document.
This is easily found on Far Right websites, Conspiracy
Theories, Demonization, & Scapegoating especially those
affiliated with Neonazis and Christian Identity.
However, mentions of the Protocols cut across the
political spectrum.

RIGHT-WING CONSPIRACISM

In the 1960s the John Birch Society (JBS) and other
Patriot Movement groups peddled the anti- Freemason
ideology from the 1790s, using it to explain the
communist threat. Communists allegedly were just one
guise of the Mason's Illuminati leadership. Later the
Illuminati were variously said to control Wall Street,
Hillary Clinton, and Dick Cheney. In terms of public
discourse, when the JBS blamed the secret elites and
plutocrats for the vast conspiracy, the organization was
not covertly blaming the Jews. Instead a favorite theme
of the JBS continues to be that the liberal globalists
are planning a New World Order run by a totalitarian One
World Government through the United Nations.
Nonetheless, the JBS cites books and other works that
perpetuate stereotypes about Jews, banking, and global
power.

The right-wing group Populists American takes a step
further toward antisemitism. For this group, the problem
is not all Jews. Rather, its website explains that the
real "enemy of all mankind" is the "Zionist Jews" who
are "not to be confused with other Jews." The website
then posts the text of the Protocols with a disclaimer
typical of this genre.

Out on the fringes of conspiracism are organized White
supremacist groups and neonazis who are mad about what
they call ZOG: the Zionist Occupational Government
(their name for the U.S. government in Washington,
D.C.). The National Alliance, Aryan Nations, and
Christian Defense League are White racist groups that
cite the Protocols.

LEFT-WING CONSPIRACISM

Contemporary Leftist conspiracism gained a significant
foothold as a response to blows suffered by social
justice movements, starting with the assassination of
President John F. Kennedy in 1963, and increasing after
the 1968 assassinations of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther
King, Jr. and Senator Robert F. Kennedy. Conspiracism
percolated at the margins of the Political Left until
the mid 1980s. In 1986 the liberal Christic Institute
filed a lawsuit, Avirgan v. Hull (known in the popular
press as the La Penca bombing case), which unwittingly
helped pull at the seam of what would soon unravel into
the Iran-Contra scandal.

The Christic Institute charges originally concerned a
series of allegations of CIA misconduct involving covert
action and gunrunning in Central America to assist the
overthrow of the socialist Sandinista government in
Nicaragua. Christic soon wrapped the case in conspiracy
stories dating back to the Kennedy assassination and the
Vietnam War - diverting attention from the illegal
activities of the Reagan administration. The case was
dismissed, but the conspiracist claims lived on.

TRACKING FROM RIGHT TO LEFT

Leftist conspiracy theories of the '60s and '70s
established conspiracism as a form of discourse and
analysis on the Political Left as well as some leftof-
center countercultures, thereby facilitating the
migration of (somewhat sanitized) right-wing conspiracy
theories from Right to Left

In its signature Avirgan v. Hull lawsuit (mentioned
above) the left-leaning Christic Institute incorporated
the central, conspiracist claims of The Secret Team, a
book by right-wing populist L. Fletcher Prouty.
Christic's investigators maintained back channel
communications with right-wing groups known to purvey
antisemitic conspiracy theories. Christic inadvertently
took conspiracy allegations rooted in the Protocols,
sanitized the antisemitic references, and peddled the
results to the Political Left and gullible liberal
funders.

The 9/11 conspiracy theory alleging 4,000 Jews were
warned of the attacks is a clear case of antisemitic
conspiracism peddled by certain Political Right groups
as a recruitment tool. Their ultimate goal is mobilizing
people to oppose progressive social and economic justice
campaigns by targeting vulnerable communities as
scapegoats. The progressive version of the 9/11
conspiracy generally avoids blatant antisemitic
references. Some on the Left, however, picked up phrases
such as "international bankers," "globalist elites,"
"secret government," "international bankers," and
"banksters," that historically have been used as coded
references to alleged Jewish power.While their target
was Bush and Cheney, the accusations and catchphrases
employed were laden with antisemitic bigotry.

SEEMINGLY UNBIGOTED CONSPIRACISM ENCOURAGES SCAPEGOATING
AND DEMONIZATION


While some theories reject overt bigotry, as in the main
branch of the "9/11 Truth Toxic to Democracy Movement,"
they fail to appreciate that the analytical model of
conspiracy thinking normalizes the process of demonizing
a scapegoated group. Once researchers embrace the
conspiracist mindset in which a vast global conspiracy
is effectively an analog of the allegations about
conniving secret elites found in the Protocols, the step
from a Secret Team to a Secret Jewish Team is a very
small one. Even when conspiracist theories do not center
on Jews, homosexuals, people of color, immigrants, or
other scapegoated groups, they still create an
environment where racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia,
xenophobia, homophobia, and other forms of prejudice,
bigotry, and oppression can flourish.

GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACISM: COUNTERSUBVERSION

Conspiracy theories are not confined to the margins of
the political spectrum. Conspiracist theories have been
used by governments to preserve the status quo against
those they characterized as subversive alien outsiders
and their sympathizers. Countersubversive conspiracy
theories can be utilized by governments to build mass
support for the surveillance, disruption, and crushing
of dissident social and political movements in the U.S.,
as was done during the McCarthy era and again with the
backlash against the social justice movements of the
1960s and '70s. With the fall of the Berlin Wall,
anticommunists both inside and outside government moved
away from conspiracy theories about global communist
subversion and embraced a new target- terrorists. These
conspiracy-based fears are present in hardline U.S.
foreign and domestic counterterrorism policies that
undermine First, Fourth, and Fourteenth Amendment
protections for dissidents and religious and ethnic
minorities whose views span the political spectrum. This
could have potentially far ranging implications for how
the United States prosecutes the "war on terror" abroad.
Antiterrorism policies based in hyperbolic conspiracy
theories reduce the effectiveness of homeland security.

THE (IL)LOGIC OF CONSPIRACISM

Conspiracism is neither a healthy expression of
skepticism nor a valid form of criticism; rather it is a
belief system that refuses to obey the rules of logic.
These theories operate from a pre-existing premise of a
conspiracy based upon careless collection of facts and
flawed assumptions. What constitutes "proof" for a
conspiracist is often more accurately described as
circumstance, rumor, and hearsay; and the allegations
often use the tools of fear-dualism, demonization,
scapegoating, and aggressively apocalyptic stories-which
all too often are commandeered by demagogues.

Thus conspiracism must be confronted as a flawed
analytical model, rather than a legitimate mode of
criticism of inequitable systems, structures, and
institutions of power. Conspiracism is nearly always a
distraction from the work of uprooting hierarchies of
unfair power and privilege.

CONSPIRACISM IS PERILOUS TO IGNORE

Conspiracist theories are attractive in part because
they start with a grain of truth embedded in preexisting
societal beliefs.

Conspiracy theorists are correct about one thing: the
status quo is not acceptable. Conspiracists have
accurately understood that there are inequalities of
power and privilege in the world-and threats to the
world itself-that need to be rectified. What conspiracy
theorists lack is the desire or ability to follow the
basic rules of logic and investigative research.
Conspiracy theories spotlight lots of fascinating
questions- but they seldom illuminate meaningful
answers.

While conspiracists tell compelling stories, they
frequently create dangerous conditions as these stories
can draw from pre-existing stereotypes and prejudices.
Cynical movement leaders then can hyperbolize false
claims in a way that mobilizes dangerous forms of
demonization and scapegoating. People who believe
conspiracist allegations sometimes act on those
irrational beliefs, and this has concrete consequences
in the real world. Angry allegations can quickly turn
into aggression and violence targeting scapegoated
groups. Conspiracist thinking and scapegoating on a mass
scale are symptoms, not causes, of underlying societal
tensions; and while conspiracism needs to be opposed,
the resolution of the grievances themselves is necessary
to restore a healthy society. Whether conspiracist
claims are circulated by angry populists or anxious
government officials, the dynamics generated by
conspiracy theories are toxic to democracy.

___________________________________________
"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
-Malcolm X
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby sunny » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:27 pm

I haven't read the whole thing yet but right off the bat I see Berlet is throwing facts into a blender.

Assertions that President Clinton assisted drug
smugglers, ran a hit squad that killed his political
enemies, and covered up the assassination of his aide
Vincent Foster first circulated on right-wing
alternative media, spread to right-wing information
networks, and eventually appeared in mainstream media
outlets.



While this is true, he doesn't mention the fact that most right-wing conspiracy theories and their proponents that bubble up into the mainstream are treated with respect and seriousness while left-wing conspiracies are only brought up to be debunked and the proponents demonized.

Immediately following the attacks, stories began to
circulate about 4,000 Jews being warned to avoid the
twin towers on 9/11. Reporters traced the contention
back to a series of rumors and claims by unnamed sources
that bounced around the Internet, becoming more
elaborate with each retelling.


Again, he's mixing up facts. The right wing anti-semitic theory was that 4,000 Jews didn't show up for work that day. This has been proven false. But it is true, and was reported in Israeli press including Haaretz, that the Israeli company Odigo did send out a warning.
Choose love
sunny
 
Posts: 5220
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 10:18 pm
Location: Alabama
Blog: View Blog (1)

Postby Hammer of Los » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:53 pm

Chip Berlet?

It was very many years ago that I came to the conclusion that Berlet was a disingenous hack, on a crusade against "conspiracy theorists."

I certainly consider it very likely that he has connections with american military intelligence.

I'm not going to read the article, though.

American Dream wrote:I'm not sure that a wholesale railing against "the Left" nor simply tagging Berlet as an agent of the CIA or Israel are the best responses.


Well, I'm certainly not going to "rail against the left," at least not today. As for tagging him an agent of the CIA, I consider it highly likely.

American Dream wrote: Far more important is to respond with reason, utilizing a coherent argument grounded in solid evidence.


Now, whilst I agree in principle, I am far too familiar with Berlet's past "journalism" to bother addressing this piece. Life's just too short man.

AD, surely you got something more interesting to bring to the table than Berlet? I quite enjoyed the hitpiece you posted about Chogyam Trungpa, for instance, having read (and been suitably unimpressed with) several of his written works.
Hammer of Los
 
Posts: 3309
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:48 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby yathrib » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:36 pm

He was interviewed on NPR's Fresh Air:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... 67&ps=cprs
yathrib
 
Posts: 1880
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 11:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby American Dream » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:43 pm

Hammer of Los wrote:
AD, surely you got something more interesting to bring to the table than Berlet? I quite enjoyed the hitpiece you posted about Chogyam Trungpa, for instance, having read (and been suitably unimpressed with) several of his written works.


I think he's interesting, not just because of the valid point about "Right woos Left" but also all the bullshit that he extrapolates from it. If your enemy is going to hit you with a certain blow again and again, it serves to understand how they're going to hit you...
"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
-Malcolm X
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Berlet is long time CIA infiltraitor of Left.

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:17 pm

Chip Berlet is one of the oldest CIA infiltraitors of the Left and keeps showing up on Democracy Now and National Propaganda Radio.

His strategic line is "paranoid conspiricism is the trademark of right-wing anti-semites."
http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/conspiracism.html

This is a good way to scare the Left away from the history of the CIA and Pentagon which function almost exclusively through secret planning, conspiracism, in other words.

Only as a credibility prop to sucker the Left, Berlet will steer you to FBI abuses like COINTELPRO but almost none of CIA's. (CIA and FBI do that to each other.)

He especially targets for badjacketing people who write about CIA criminal culture and the murder of JFK, like Mark Lane ('Rush to Judgement') and L. Fletcher Prouty ('The Secret Team: CIA and its Allies in Control of the World') and Victor Marchetti ('The Cult of Intelligence').

Ole Chip disses John Judge, David Emory, and Pacifica Radio-
http://www.publiceye.org/media/spooky.html
Pacifica affiliates and scores of small FM stations play tapes by or air interviews with a cast of characters including John Judge, David Emory, Sherman Skolnick, Bo Gritz, and Craig Hulet (aka K.C. Depass). These "experts" weave webs so intricate they make a Hitchcock plot seem like a script for Mr. Rogers...


His anchor for this 'conspiricism=paranoid hater' line is Larouche. Larouche is not a good guy worth defending but is highly visible and pointing people at CIA crimes. So it serves two purposes to demonize him and portray others as being like Larouche with 'guilt by contrived association.'

Now ole Chip is steering us away from the inside job of 9/11, too, natch.
Just like Douglas Rushkoff, BTW.

The Chipster has targeted David Ray Griffin due to his 9/11 Truth visibility and series of books exposing the NIST's report as just another Warren Commission-type cover-up.

When the Holocaust Museum shooting was discussed by Amy Goodman, Chip Berlet was on her show doing his thing - tying everything the Left abhors to "dangerous conspiricism," just like the CIA media that portrayed that hateful killer as a 9/11 truther.

CIA, all the way. That's Chip Berlet. Here to stay. Watch what he say.
Last edited by Hugh Manatee Wins on Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
CIA runs mainstream media since WWII:
news rooms, movies/TV, publishing
...
Disney is CIA for kidz!
User avatar
Hugh Manatee Wins
 
Posts: 9869
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:51 pm
Location: in context
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby American Dream » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:56 pm

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:
He especially targets for badjacketing people who write about CIA criminal culture and the murder of JFK, like Mark Lane ('Rush to Judgement') and L. Fletcher Prouty ('The Secret Team: CIA and its Allies in Control of the World'). His anchor for his line is Larouche. Larouche is not a good guy worth defending but is highly visible and pointing people at CIA crimes. So it serves two purposes to demonize him and portray others as being like Larouche with 'guilt by contrived association.'


Mark Lane may be a good researcher, but then again maybe not. His involvement with bringing MLK witness Grace Stephens to Jonestown does raise some serious questions...

As to Prouty, I think he really was a whisteblower but he never transcended his world view from his cold warrior days. So he does bring that hardcore right wing bias to his presentation, sincere though he may be.

As to LaRouche, he has enjoyed such connections to Paperclip Nazis, CIA spooks and the like that you've got to wonder who he's really helping. Henry Kissinger ought to pay him big bucks for making him look like a victim of insane radical loonies, rather than the perpetrator that he actually is...


.
"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
-Malcolm X
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Berlet is long time CIA infiltraitor of Left.

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:14 pm

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:Chip Berlet is one of the oldest CIA infiltraitors of the Left and keeps showing up on Democracy Now and National Propaganda Radio.

His strategic line is "paranoid conspiricism is the trademark of right-wing anti-semites."
http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/conspiracism.html


Fair enough.

This is a good way to scare the Left away from the history of the CIA and Pentagon which function almost exclusively through secret planning, conspiracism, in other words.

Only as a credibility prop to sucker the Left, Berlet will steer you to FBI abuses like COINTELPRO but almost none of CIA's. (CIA and FBI do that to each other.)


IIRC, that's an insupportable statement. I'm now going to go do a Chip Berlet review myself to see whether I don't, in fact, recall correctly. But if you have supporting material at you fingertips, it would be very helpful to be set straight by you as well as, ultimately, by myself.

He especially targets for badjacketing people who write about CIA criminal culture and the murder of JFK, like Mark Lane ('Rush to Judgement') and L. Fletcher Prouty ('The Secret Team: CIA and its Allies in Control of the World') and Victor Marchetti ('The Cult of Intelligence').

Ole Chip disses John Judge, David Emory, and Pacifica Radio-
http://www.publiceye.org/media/spooky.html
Pacifica affiliates and scores of small FM stations play tapes by or air interviews with a cast of characters including John Judge, David Emory, Sherman Skolnick, Bo Gritz, and Craig Hulet (aka K.C. Depass). These "experts" weave webs so intricate they make a Hitchcock plot seem like a script for Mr. Rogers...


His anchor for this 'conspiricism=paranoid hater' line is Larouche. Larouche is not a good guy worth defending but is highly visible and pointing people at CIA crimes. So it serves two purposes to demonize him and portray others as being like Larouche with 'guilt by contrived association.'

Now ole Chip is steering us away from the inside job of 9/11, too, natch.
Just like Douglas Rushkoff, BTW.

The Chipster has targeted David Ray Griffin due to his 9/11 Truth visibility and series of books exposing the NIST's report as just another Warren Commission-type cover-up.

When the Holocaust Museum shooting was discussed by Amy Goodman, Chip Berlet was on her show doing his thing - tying everything the Left abhors to "dangerous conspiricism," just like the CIA media that portrayed that hateful killer as a 9/11 truther.

CIA, all the way. That's Chip Berlet. Here to stay. Watch what he say.


That's either an incomplete or selective presentation, given that a number of the above-named are closely enough affiliated with one another to represent one target, rather than several targets. For example, Gritz and Prouty are both aligned with Larouche, also IIRC, and as I'll also now go double-check. And Mark Lane isn't exactly squeaky clean either, if I'm not mistaken.

Further, to say that LaRouche is highly visible and pointing people at CIA crimes, while omitting to say that LaRouche himself has done business with the CIA, as well as been duped into doing business with con artists who were (at a minimum) fraudulently representing the extent and nature of their CIA connections, if indeed they had any, but whom he believed to be CIA at the time he happily entered into an alliance with them, is not exactly distinguished by the rigor of the observation.

And still further, to say that LaRouche is highly visible and pointing people at CIA crimes, while omitting to say that whatever Larouche points to, including CIA crimes, points to the view that the world is controlled by an inner oligarchy composed, inter alia, of Jewish bankers, the British monarchy, the Rockefeller family, and the Council on Foreign Relations, suggests that you've either missed the point of what he's pointing to or that you're in agreement with it.

In short, I got some problems with what you just wrote there, Hugh.

I'll be back with some cites, and am sorry if I've overstated or misstated my case in advance of them.
User avatar
compared2what?
 
Posts: 8383
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:31 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Berlet: Conspiracies, Demonization & Scapegoating

Postby lupercal » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:50 pm

That's some serious lunchmeat. I'd never encountered a Berlet masterpiece before so thanks for a healthy serving. It looks like he put every psyops distraction the spooks have pumped out since 1963 and probably before into the meat grinder. Leaping to the grand finale, below, my take is that this delicacy is meant to coincide with the Tiller and museum shootings to kick off a campaign to criminalize the propagation of "perilous" conspiracy theories:

American Dream wrote:CONSPIRACISM IS PERILOUS TO IGNORE

Conspiracist theories are attractive in part because
they start with a grain of truth embedded in preexisting
societal beliefs.

Conspiracy theorists are correct about one thing: the
status quo is not acceptable. Conspiracists have
accurately understood that there are inequalities of
power and privilege in the world-and threats to the
world itself-that need to be rectified. What conspiracy
theorists lack is the desire or ability to follow the
basic rules of logic and investigative research.
Conspiracy theories spotlight lots of fascinating
questions- but they seldom illuminate meaningful
answers.

While conspiracists tell compelling stories, they
frequently create dangerous conditions as these stories
can draw from pre-existing stereotypes and prejudices.
Cynical movement leaders then can hyperbolize false
claims in a way that mobilizes dangerous forms of
demonization and scapegoating. People who believe
conspiracist allegations sometimes act on those
irrational beliefs, and this has concrete consequences
in the real world. Angry allegations can quickly turn
into aggression and violence targeting scapegoated
groups. Conspiracist thinking and scapegoating on a mass
scale are symptoms, not causes, of underlying societal
tensions; and while conspiracism needs to be opposed,
the resolution of the grievances themselves is necessary
to restore a healthy society. Whether conspiracist
claims are circulated by angry populists or anxious
government officials, the dynamics generated by
conspiracy theories are toxic to democracy.

___________________________________________
User avatar
lupercal
 
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:06 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:35 am

lupercal wrote:That's some serious lunchmeat. I'd never encountered a Berlet masterpiece before so thanks for a healthy serving. It looks like he put every psyops distraction the spooks have pumped out since 1963 and probably before into the meat grinder. Leaping to the grand finale, below, my take is that this delicacy is meant to coincide with the Tiller and museum shootings to kick off a campaign to criminalize the propagation of "perilous" conspiracy theories:...[etc.]


Given that he explicitly states that in the wake of those and other shootings, his aim is to clearly delineate the propagation of perilous conspiracy theories originated by and relying on far-right sources, one might well ask:

Lupercal, what was your first clue?

Also, whom do you envision campaigning for the criminalization of conspiracy theory? And would that be as a federal offense, or...what, exactly?

Chip Berlet is, imo, a big fuckin' drag whose apparent belief that the best way to expose various fascist and neo-fascist groups and movements of the far right is by spending a disproportionate amount of time and energy dwelling on how successfully they've infiltrated the left is toxic enough on its face that it doesn't much matter to me whether it's toxic by design and if so, whose.

However, having refreshed my memory and done some additional random-sample checking-through, I have to say that as far as it goes, most of what he has to say is responsibly reported and factually correct, in letter if not in spirit.

For example, he's not wrong to point out that Fletcher Prouty's career as a whistleblower was underwritten by and beneficial to both the Liberty Lobby, and to various outlets in the far-flung international intelligence and media operations of the LaRouche conglomerate. Nor is he wrong that both the Liberty Lobby and the LaRouchies are totalitarian fascist groups that, at best, don't always proudly announce their ties to white supremacist and/or Nazi ideologies.

Although he doesn't point it out, he could have added that Prouty also had a long and mutually beneficial relationship with the Church of Scientology. Which, incidentally, quietly infiltrated and took control of the Liberty Lobby and its affiliated publications back in the early '90s. Which was some years before one of its imprints published a new edition of Prouty's book, of which Hugh speaks with such unreserved praise.

He's also not wrong to point out that Mark Lane has a very similar profile and set of affiliations. And although there's more room for debate on this one, owing to the complexity of the subject, there's not much question in my mind that if the Christic Institute had kept its eye on the ball wrt litigation arising from its investigation of the La Penca bombing, rather than taking its cues from Prouty's book and LaRouche's operatives, it might have succeeded in both exposing and convicting some of the criminals who were involved in a little conspiracy called Iran-Contra. Instead of going bankrupt as a result of the heavy penalties they had to pay when evidence and/or testimony in support of their Prouty-and-LaRouche-derived affidavit failed to materialize.

In short, I'd say that conspirators working for the executive branch, the Defense Department and the CIA non-theoretically succeeded in fucking over the Christic Institute's case. And while Chip Berlet doesn't use the word "conspiracy" when reporting the basic factual elements on which that theory is based, he does point them out. And not wrongly, to the best of my knowledge.

Most of the features that ended up in the narrative promoted as 911 Truth, v Popular-but-politically-and-legally-useless-points-2-through-whatever-number-v-we're-on-now also originated in the white supremacist precincts of the far right. Incidentally.

Information with that kind of provenance is always toxic, ultimately. Not that I'm very optimistic about my chances of convincing anyone who doesn't already know that truth that it is one. For one thing, it's already been rendered too unappetizing by Chip Berlet to rebrand it as anything very tasty. Funny how that works, isn't it?
User avatar
compared2what?
 
Posts: 8383
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:31 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:04 am

This is for you, too, c2w.

American Dream wrote:.....
Mark Lane may be a good researcher, but then again maybe not. His involvement with bringing MLK witness Grace Stephens to Jonestown does raise some serious questions...

I've only found disinfo smears on Lane, nothing authentically negative.
There's an article about Jonestown online that seems to be the most thoroughly damning one to be found. I've been meaning to warn Alex Constantine about it because he's got it at his site, too. He must've missed the turd in the middle of a very long piece.
Because there in the middle of this piece are totally unfounded charges that Mark Lane is a spook, a "vacuum cleaner" of facts. Nonsense. Just another attempt to badjacket one of the most thoroughly documented whistleblowers on the JFK cover-up. His documentary film and book called 'Rush to Judgement' was devastating to the Warren Commission and included testimony on the suppression of witnesses. In the 1990s Lane nailed E. Howard Hunt for lying about not being in Dallas on the big day and wrote it up in 'Plausible Denial.'

And he did it by defending the Liberty Lobby's Spotlight for having printed a story about the CIA possibly throwing Hunt under the JFK bus based on Victor Marchetti's whistleblowing account of what was being said at high-level CIA meetings.

So you have to keep that in mind when you read Chip CIA Berlet waving his arms about Prouty's or Lane's 'links to the Liberty Lobby.'

Mark Lane was once attorney for James Earl Ray, another CIA patsy like Oswald, and Lane was trying to keep a key witness alive.
Some witnesses to the FBI murder of MLK were killed, just as with JFK.

Lots of people were fooled by Jim Jones' 'liberal' act and I wouldn't be surprised if an attempt was made to dirty Lane up because of his investigative books on the JFK cover-up (1966) and Vietnam atrocities (1970) by embroiling him with a secret CIA skunk like Jim Jones.
What could be more perfect than to get both Mark Lane and this witness into the CIA's clutches? They managed to murder Congressman Leo Ryan who was writing legislation reigning in CIA covert ops. Lane is probably very lucky to be alive.

As to Prouty, I think he really was a whisteblower but he never transcended his world view from his cold warrior days. So he does bring that hardcore right wing bias to his presentation, sincere though he may be.

Have you read 'The Secret Team?' It is the single most authoritative history of how the National inSecurity State metastisized from 1945-1963 written by a man who was there as Pentagon liason with CIA. Prouty documents how a clique of individuals took over the government right under Eisenhower's nose and ran their own wars. You call this act of whistleblowing "hardcore right wing bias?"

Prouty wrote in 'The Secret Team' (1973) that the secret government was an atrocity that must be exposed. That's more of an informed authoritative stand against fascism than most progressives make today, primarily because they're so damn ignorant about military government.
If they'd read Prouty's book(s), they'd know what we're up against.

Prouty was largely responsible for the JFK Records Act and the administering of it by the Assassination Records Review Board in the 1990s.
Because Prouty shared info with Oliver Stone who then made the movie and created pressure on Congress.

After you've read 'The Secret Team,' c2w, which was published in 1973 and nothing to do with Scientology-
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/
...do read Prouty's
'JFK – The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy.'
Prouty was one of the authors of the all important NSAM 263 ending US involvement in Vietnam which gatekeepers like Noam Chomsky piss themselves over.

Here's an excerpt-
http://www.maebrussell.com/Prouty/JFK%20by%20Fletcher%20Prouty%20excerpts.html

Remember, Scientology is CIA. I wouldn't be surprised if the CIAntology spooks sold their prison drug program 'virtue' to Prouty to get him to endorse them. Or something like that. Getting dirt on Prouty would be a CIA imperative so the likes of Chip CIA Berlet could dissuade you from even reading his whistleblowing books that are so dangerous to CIA.

Also do read Prouty at a website dedicated to him-
http://www.prouty.org/

And at-
http://www.ratical.org/rhrIndex/authorP-Q.html
L. Fletcher Prouty

* The Fourth Force -- initial CIA "expansion" via 40s Pentagon War Plans, 12/75
(ASCII text)
* The Guns of Dallas, 10/75
(ASCII text)
* How the CIA Controls President Ford, 7/75
(ASCII text)
* Indonesia 1958: Nixon, the CIA, and the Secret War, 8/76
(ASCII text)
* An Introduction to the Assassination Business, 9/75
(ASCII text)
* Playing God With the Forty Committee, 2/75
(ASCII text)
* The Sabotaging of the American Presidency -- the U-2 debacle, 1/78
(ASCII text)
* THE SECRET TEAM, The CIA and Its Allies in Control of the United States and the World, 1997 (entry point to ASCII text format)
o Acknowledgments
o Author's Note
o 1972 Preface
o 1992 Preface
o 1997 Preface
1. The "Secret Team" -- The Real Power Structure
2. The Nature of Secret Team Activity: A Cuban Case Study
3. An Overview of the CIA; SECTION I: Intelligence versus Secret Operations
4. An Overview of the CIA; SECTION II: Origins of the Agency and Seeds of Secret Operations
5. An Overview of the CIA; SECTION III: A Simple Coup d'Etat to a Global Mechanism
6. From the Word of the Law to the Interpretation: President Kennedy Attempts to Put the CIA Under Control
7. "Defense" as a National Military Philosophy, the Natural Prey of the Intelligence Community
8. "It Shall Be the Duty of the Agency: to Advise, to Coordinate, to Correlate and Evaluate and Disseminate and to Perform Services of Common Concern..."
9. From the Pines of Maine to the Birches of Russia: The Nature of Clandestine Operations
10. CIA: The "Cover Story" Intelligence Agency and the Real-Life Clandestine Operator
11. The Coincidence of Crises
12. The Dulles-Jackson-Correa Report in Action
13. The Dulles Era Begins
14. Personnel: The Chameleon Game
15. The Nature of Secret Team Activity: A Cuban Case Study
16. Transportation: Anywhere in the World -- Now
17. Logistics by Miracle
18. Cold War: The Pyrrhic Gambit
19. Mission Astray, Soviet Gamesmanship
20. Defense, Containment, and Anti-Communism
21. The New Doctrine: Special Forces and the Penetration of the Mutual Security Program
22. Krushchev's Challenge: The U-2 Dilemma
23. Time of Covert Action: U-2 to the Kennedy Inaugural
24. Camelot: From the Bay of Pigs to Dallas, Texas
25. Five Presidents: "Nightmares We Inherited"
o Appendix I
o Appendix II
o Appendix III
o Bibliography
o Index


As to LaRouche, he has enjoyed such connections to Paperclip Nazis, CIA spooks and the like that you've got to wonder who he's really helping. Henry Kissinger ought to pay him big bucks for making him look like a victim of insane radical loonies, rather than the perpetrator that he actually is...

Yes, LaRouche is ugly.
However, he's a loose cannon as far as CIA is concerned and they don't want people hearing him. He got jailed when he wouldn't shut up about the October Surprise deal with the Iranians and this threatened the GHWBush presidency.

Now he's got college kids handing out pamphlets on campuses and that can easily lead to finding CIA's historical skeletons on the internet.

Plus, say what you want about Webster Tarpley's hyperbolic style and sloppiness, the spooks have been fighting off his 1991 'Unauthorized Biography of George Bush' since the internet opened. They even tried to sensitize spam-filters to that since it was being passed around so much. I wrote about this as 'spamjacketing' a few years ago.
Tarpley's version of a 9/11 expose, 'Synthetic Terror: Made in USA,' makes him even more a headache for CIA.

So Chip CIA Berlet demonizing LaRouche as much as possible also serves to deter people from learning anything from Tarpley by implied association, although Tarpley says the association never was much anyway.

The whole point, c2w, is that Berlet methodically shoos people away from any source where they might learn something about CIA and military-intelligence culture.

And that information is THE most important information people are missing.
CIA runs mainstream media since WWII:
news rooms, movies/TV, publishing
...
Disney is CIA for kidz!
User avatar
Hugh Manatee Wins
 
Posts: 9869
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:51 pm
Location: in context
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:31 am

compared2what? wrote:...having refreshed my memory and done some additional random-sample checking-through, I have to say that as far as it goes, most of what he has to say is responsibly reported and factually correct, in letter if not in spirit.

"Responsibly reported?"
You mean..."conspiricism?" Plus his badjacketing of Pacifica, John Judge, etc?

Congratulations. You caught the tiny tiny little bone that Chip threw you to keep you away from the rogue elephant in the room.

And the rest of what you wrote could've been written by Chip CIA Berlet himself. You bit on the turd.

For example, he's not wrong to point out that Fletcher Prouty's career as a whistleblower was underwritten by and beneficial to both the Liberty Lobby, and to various outlets in the far-flung international intelligence and media operations of the LaRouche conglomerate.

You must be joking. "His career as a whistleblower?" Utter nonsense.
Obviously you haven't even read his books or you would've noticed how searingly dangerous they are to CIA, NSC, and Pentagon.

Nor is he wrong that both the Liberty Lobby and the LaRouchies are totalitarian fascist groups that, at best, don't always proudly announce their ties to white supremacist and/or Nazi ideologies.

Um, just like...the CIA. And Chip Berlet is CIA.

Perhaps "don't always proudly announce their ties" would be why many years ago pre-internet some people were glad to atleast be published by someone, even the LL's Spotlight. Hmm?

Although he doesn't point it out, he could have added that Prouty also had a long and mutually beneficial relationship with the Church of Scientology.

That's a grandiose puffed up caricature.
You (and most people) have completely missed that compared to CIA's effect on people's lives, Liberty Lobby and Scientology are nothing.
And Chip CIA Berlet's strategy is to confuse the proportionality, just as you are here.
Which, incidentally, quietly infiltrated and took control of the Liberty Lobby and its affiliated publications back in the early '90s.Which was some years before one of its imprints published a new edition of Prouty's book, of which Hugh speaks with such unreserved praise.

Somehow you keep omitting the actual content of Prouty's book.
Just like Chip CIA Berlet. Have I mentioned that this is his goal? Right.

Notice what you wrote. That CIAntology took over the Liberty Lobby which had been printing dirt on CIA. Makes sense, doesn't it?
I don't know where you're getting the notion that CIAntology did a printing of 'The Secret Team.'

It was on the shelf of Borders in paperback recently. Good.
My hardback copy is the 1973 printing and is signed by Prouty with a personal dedication to the previous owner, Congressman Leo Ryan's chief aide, Joseph Holsinger. Prouty wrote, "Thank you for the important work that you are doing." After Ryan's murder, Holsinger determined that Jonestown was a CIA op. His boss was a watchdog against CIA covert ops.

Make what you will of that but I have it in Prouty's own handwriting.

He's also not wrong to point out that Mark Lane has a very similar profile and set of affiliations.

He's completely wrong.

And although there's more room for debate on this one, owing to the complexity of the subject, there's not much question in my mind that if the Christic Institute...

Perhaps you didn't know that the Christic Institute's former counsel, Daniel Sheehan, has taken to promoting UFOs from outer space working for disinfoteer Dr. Greer and his bogus 'Disclusure Project.'
Greer...Greer...where have I heard that name? Oh. JFK's 'incompetent' Secret Service driver. Golly, what a coincidence!

Now do you get what happened to the Christic Institute and who did it?
Not Prouty and Lane, the whistleblowers against the CIA.

And while Chip Berlet doesn't use the word "conspiracy"...

He SCORNS the very concept of conspiracy.
That's the CIA's anchor of misdirection ever since 11/22/63.

You have the brains. I know you'll get it eventually.
:P
Most of the features that ended up in the narrative promoted as 911 Truth, v Popular-but-politically-and-legally-useless-points-2-through-whatever-number-v-we're-on-now also originated in the white supremacist precincts of the far right. Incidentally.

:shock: :x I might have to take that back. You must be kidding.
I hope you're kidding.
CIA runs mainstream media since WWII:
news rooms, movies/TV, publishing
...
Disney is CIA for kidz!
User avatar
Hugh Manatee Wins
 
Posts: 9869
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:51 pm
Location: in context
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby compared2what? » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:51 am

Hugh, Prouty worked for Scientology, which is -- per your view -- CIA.

Your take on LaRouche as "ugly" is a vast understatement. And you're simply not correct in suggesting that he has not sometimes worked for the CI-fucking-A.

Almost all of the guys you're championing have career-long ties to fascist, neo-fascist and totalitarian groups on the far right. And -- PS -- the pamphlets LaRouche has kids passing out on college campuses are full of the rantings of Lyndon LaRouche, and not of eye-opening histories of the CIA's crimes.

Furthermore, if they're passing out pamphlets for LaRouche, they're highly unlikely to be living free and self-determined lives, in which they -- for example -- get to make money or decisions for themselves. LaRouche troops also have a long history of causing sometimes violent disturbances at protests that no one invited them to join.

"Ugly" does not begin to cover it. LaRouche and Prouty in particular give every appearance of being (or having been) disinfo agents from the far right. Whose function is to keep places like the Christic Institute too busy chasing Secret Team evidence that doesn't exist to have time to do stuff like, oh, I don't know, successfully try CIA criminals for their crimes in court. And Lane and Marchetti have some very questionable items on their whistle-blowing resumes as well.

I don't like Berlet. But he's not a threat to anyone's sanity or civil liberties. Or life. LaRouche is. And so are the paymasters of most of the rest of your little gang of fair-haired boys. And if you don't understand that Scientology, LaRouche and the Unification Church (among others) all work on-and-off with the CIA, and with one another, as well as with the intelligence agencies of other countries, as well as (of course) for themselves, you're missing a pretty big part of the global intel picture. Please say it ain't so.

I've read excerpts of Prouty's writings, and that's all. I'm sure his book is a very satisfying read, and that some -- maybe almost all -- of what he says is either verifiable or perfectly reasonable. However, in my experience, sources that have no problem shaking the bloody hands of ruthless and homicidal organizations with a declared interest in taking over the world, then killing or enslaving certain undesirable segments of its populace -- not to mention an explicit policy of lying in order to manipulate public opinion -- always turn out to be steering you wrong in some way, sooner or later. And usually fucking up your mind while they do. Because that phenomenon's not unique to the CIA. It's more of what I'd call, oh, I don't know. A universal truth.
User avatar
compared2what?
 
Posts: 8383
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:31 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby compared2what? » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:54 am

You must be joking. "His career as a whistleblower?" Utter nonsense.
Obviously you haven't even read his books or you would've noticed how searingly dangerous they are to CIA, NSC, and Pentagon.


Funny how they've survived without a scratch, then, isn't it?
User avatar
compared2what?
 
Posts: 8383
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:31 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:58 am

Chip Berlet is a lying sack of shit and he's been caught using sock puppets at wikipedia and taking spook funding etc.

Do search up the many articles outing him as a spook, c2w.

Here are outright lies and distortions by Chip CIA Berlet.
He does the CIA trick of characterizing all 'conspiracy theory' (anything about CIA crimes) be really just anti-semitism.

He can only fool the most ignorant and naive but that's lots of people.

In its signature Avirgan v. Hull lawsuit (mentioned
above) the left-leaning Christic Institute incorporated
the central, conspiracist claims of The Secret Team, a
book by right-wing populist L. Fletcher Prouty.
Christic's investigators maintained back channel
communications with right-wing groups known to purvey
antisemitic conspiracy theories. Christic inadvertently
took conspiracy allegations rooted in the Protocols,
sanitized the antisemitic references, and peddled the
results to the Political Left and gullible liberal
funders.

False. There's nothing about the Protocols even written or said by Prouty or Mark Lane or any of Berlet's targets.

Not one word of 'The Secret Team' was about anything other than post-WWII military-intelligence history.

But Chip CIA Berlet tries to make the reader think the worst views associated with the Liberty Lobby were involved in some way to deter the Left from learning what the CIA doesn't want them to know.

More religion-baiting and lies from Berlet-
The 9/11 conspiracy theory alleging 4,000 Jews were
warned of the attacks is a clear case of antisemitic
conspiracism peddled by certain Political Right groups
as a recruitment tool. Their ultimate goal is mobilizing
people to oppose progressive social and economic justice
campaigns by targeting vulnerable communities as
scapegoats. The progressive version of the 9/11
conspiracy generally avoids blatant antisemitic
references. Some on the Left, however, picked up phrases
such as "international bankers," "globalist elites,"
"secret government," "international bankers," and
"banksters," that historically have been used as coded
references to alleged Jewish power.While their target
was Bush and Cheney, the accusations and catchphrases
employed were laden with antisemitic bigotry.


So, according to Berlet's spiel, all the recent criticism of the bank bailout and ALL 9/11 Truth investigation is just 'cloaked anti-semitism.'

If you believe this, c2w, I'm going to be very concerned about you.
CIA runs mainstream media since WWII:
news rooms, movies/TV, publishing
...
Disney is CIA for kidz!
User avatar
Hugh Manatee Wins
 
Posts: 9869
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:51 pm
Location: in context
Blog: View Blog (0)

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 51 guests