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Crows' fabled ingenuity shines in intelligence tests.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:35 am
by seemslikeadream
Bird's Tool Use Called 'Amazing'

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Crows' fabled ingenuity shines in intelligence tests.
Posted August 6, 2009
By Charles Q. Choi, LiveScience

Just like in Aesop's fable, scientists now find that crows might indeed learn to drop stones in pitchers to raise the height of water inside, in this case to bring a tasty, floating worm within reach.

This suggests the fanciful millennia-old tale might actually have been based on fact.

In Aesop's fable, "the crow and the pitcher," a thirsty crow dropped stones in a pitcher to raise the water level and quench its thirst. Past experiments have shown that crows and their relatives — altogether known as corvids — are indeed "remarkably intelligent, and in many ways rival the great apes in their physical intelligence and ability to solve problems," said researcher Christopher Bird at the University of Cambridge in England.

Smart as primates?

In recent years, scientists revealed that orangutans were able to use water as a tool, much as in the crow and pitcher fable, spitting water into a tube to bring a peanut within their grasp. Researcher Nathan Emery, a comparative psychologist at Queen Mary University of London, noted those experiments were a challenge to see if crows were capable of the same feat.

Bird and Emery tested four adult rooks — intelligent birds belonging to the corvid family — with a clear plastic tube 6 inches high (15 cm) filled partly with water and large and small stones. These rooks had previously shown experience using and manufacturing tools, such as making hooks out of wire to pull in a bucket containing food, or employing sticks and stones to release a trap door to deposit a meal.

All four rooks lived up to the fable. Rooks named "Cook" and "Fry" were successful on their first attempt, and "Connelly" and "Monroe" took two tries.

"The behavior of the rooks reported in the paper is amazing," said biologist Natacha Mendes at Institute of Cognitive Neurology and Dementia Research in Magdeburg, Germany, who did not participate in this study. (Mendes and her colleagues performed the experiments where orangutans mimicked the crow and pitcher fable.)

The birds proved highly accurate, placing in only the precise number of stones needed to raise the water level to a reachable height. Instead of trying to get the worm after each stone was dropped, they apparently estimated the number required from the outset and waited until the time was right. The rooks selected larger stones over smaller ones for maximum effect.

"We've now found in many cases that the crows perform as well or even outperform the apes in these sort of tasks," Emery told LiveScience.

In the future, the researchers would like to vary aspects of the experiments — for instance, using birds that have no prior tool-use or tool-making experience, or using liquids that don't act like water, or using materials that do or don't float.

Could babies do it?

Also, they will not only test other species of corvids, such as Eurasian jays, but humans as well.

"It's not clear to me that even humans could do this without any knowledge of the properties of water or stones," Emery said. "We will therefore be giving the task to young infants."

Calling the rooks "feather apes," Mendes wondered what would happen if the researchers used large light stones and small heavier stones instead. "Would rooks be able to appreciate other physical properties of tools — e.g. weight — other than size?"

Despite the impressive abilities the rooks demonstrated here, they are not thought to use tools in the wild at all.

"Wild tool use appears to be dependent on motivation," Bird said. "Rooks do not use tools in the wild because they do not need to, not because they can't. They have access to other food that can be acquired without using tools."

As Bird noted, that fits nicely with Aesop's maxim: "Necessity is the mother of invention."

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:56 am
by Perelandra
Interesting, but this just seems like really bad writing.

Describing a fable as a "fanciful tale" is ignorant.

Despite the impressive abilities the rooks demonstrated here, they are not thought to use tools in the wild at all.

"Wild tool use appears to be dependent on motivation," Bird said. "Rooks do not use tools in the wild because they do not need to, not because they can't. They have access to other food that can be acquired without using tools."

As Bird noted, that fits nicely with Aesop's maxim: "Necessity is the mother of invention."

I wonder why the German biologist described this behavior as amazing. I don't know about rooks, but I observe crows in the wild using tools all the time.

Does this person mean to imply that the rooks use tools because they're incarcerated and wild birds are not "motivated"?

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:02 am
by Joe Hillshoist
Stone the crows!!!

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:03 am
by Joe Hillshoist
Hi Perelandra how are you?

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:13 am
by beeline
Pffft, crows. My parakeet scored 950 on the SATs. Would've been higher but he trouble with the written essay section.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:02 pm
by Perelandra
G'day Joe. I am very well and glad to see you. :cheers:

In the Brevia section of the 9 August 2002 issue of Science, Weir et al. report a remarkable observation: The toolmaking behavior of New Caledonian crows. In the experiments, a captive female crow, confronted with a task that required a curved tool (retrieving a food-containing bucket from a vertical pipe), spontaneously bent a piece of straight wire into a hooked shape -- and then repeated the behavior in nine out of ten subsequent trials. Though these crows are known to employ tools in the wild using natural materials, this bird had no prior training with the use of pliant materials such as wire -- a fact that makes its apparently spontaneous, highly specific problem-solving all the more interesting, and raises intriguing questions about the evolutionary preconditions for complex cognition. The crow's behavior was captured on an unusual video clip, available on Science Online.
Vidclip

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:16 pm
by Nordic
I had a Magpie (close relative of the crow) when I was a kid, I'd found it as a baby and raised it. It was probably smarter than a dog. Unbelievably smart how it could figure things out. It could get water out of a closed water bottle with a nipple on it but knocking the bottle over, squeezing the side of the bottle by pressing it down with its beak, then gobbling up the water droplets as they came out of the nipple.

Among other things.

Yet so many other birds are so damn stupid. Doves, for instance. Complete idiots. They'll lay their eggs anywhere. Then they break, or fall out of the crappy little nest they make, or predators will get them because the nest will be in a really easily-accessible place. Yet there are tons of doves where I live. I guess it's a numbers game with them, they just lay eggs everywhere and enough of them survive.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:46 pm
by Cosmic Cowbell
"According to Jamie Sams and David Carson, in their excellent book Medicine Cards (which accompanies a beautiful deck of animal cards), Raven's medicine is magic. She is the Great Mystery of the Void.

Black, to Native Americans, is a color of magical power, and only to be feared if misused. Raven symbolizes the void - the mystery of that which is not yet formed. Ravens are symbolic of the Black Hole in Space, which draws in all energy toward itself and releases it in new forms. The iridescent blue and green that can be seen in the glossy black feathers of the raven represents the constant change of forms and shapes that emerge from the vast blackness of the void. In Native American tradition, Raven is the guardian of both ceremonial magic and healing circles. She is also the patron of smoke signals.

Raven's element is air, and she is a messenger spirit, which Native American shamans use to project their magic over great distances.

In many northwestern American Indian traditions, Raven is the Trickster, much like the Norse Loki. Observing ravens in nature, we find that they often steal food from under the noses of other animals, often working in pairs to distract the unfortunate beasts. Anne Cameron has written several northwestern Indian tales (Raven and Snipe, Raven Goes Berrypicking, Raven Returns the Water, and others) with the Raven as Trickster theme."

http://www.druidry.org/obod/lore/animal/raven.html

"Science"... :roll:

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:10 pm
by Crow
Well, I didn't want to brag...

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:36 pm
by barracuda
The crows around here crack black walnuts by dropping them from great heights onto the street below, then once broken, they pick up the big pieces and fly off to a tree to chow. They all do it. Some days during the fall it's as if it's raining the occassional walnut. They must somehow know and remember that it works or teach each other; it's not like they rediscover the skill daily. They're fucking huge, by the way, and I've seen them catch and kill other birds on the wing.

Image

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:36 pm
by marmot
Fwiw, we've had a number of crow-threads on rigint since I've been around here. And, yes, I would consider crows smarter than dogs. Other smart birds of note that I've had personal experience with are macaws, hawks, and bluejays.

"He's a crow, Jim!"

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:49 pm
by Hugh Manatee Wins
Clever crows...hmmm...

This article wouldn't be timed to go with the anti-Obama-health-care whitey riots, would it?

As in, Jim Crow.
BTW, JimCrowHistory.org just went down.

Yesterday as the violence was breaking out at the Tampa health care town hall event, Nationalist Propaganda Radio (NPR) was running an article about the 'health hazards of left turns' in traffic...just before the rush hour traffic report insert which sounded like "there an accident holding up traffic at..."

All the psyops stops are being pulled out by Operation Mockingbird now.
Now there's a clever and dangerous bird.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:07 am
by LilyPatToo
Years ago, I befriended a very upset baby Western Scrub Jay (another corvid) just after he'd been kicked out by his parents. He was an amazing creature and the first bird I'd ever interacted with at length, outside of pet parakeets that I'd kept as a child and some finches my son and I had.

I called him Merlin and got him hooked on peanuts (which I think equal crack cocaine for jays), for which he would do just about anything. His intelligence amazed me--I'd thought all birds (other than maybe African gray parrots) were, well...bird-brains. But Merlin actually interacted and communicated with me daily. He had a long, soft, complex song which he would sing directly to me. If something interrupted our eye contact, he would pause and wait until he had my full attention before he would resume the song. I later learned that each scrub jay has their own individual song, sung in one of (I think) two known scrub jay regional languages.

He fledged his own babies in my yard and so have many generations of his family since. Some became so trusting that they would land on my lap to collect their peanuts and many visited daily. There is absolutely an intelligence in their bright, alert eyes. When I read about a scrub jay creating and using a simple tool in a scientist's lab, I wasn't surprised in the slightest--they're incredibly smart. After so many years of interacting with them, I think of them as feathered people, to be honest.

I can highly recommend the book Bird Brains: The Intelligence of Crows, Ravens, Magpies, and Jays if you're interested in learning more about this other intelligent life form with whom we're fortunate to share the planet.

LilyPat

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:06 am
by Zap
barracuda wrote:The crows around here crack black walnuts by dropping them from great heights onto the street below, then once broken, they pick up the big pieces and fly off to a tree to chow.


In the spring here, I have seen crows divebombing naive young squirrels playing in the branches of the high elms, way up over the street - it seemed clear they were trying to knock them down and break them open.

Now THAT's roadkill ...

- - -

Lilypat - even chickens - which we (not you and I, but our culture) love to conveniently think of as dumb-as-bugs, are actually quite intelligent, if given a chance. I even have a once-removed friend who has one as a beloved housepet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfbf5DHcUcs#t=1m22s

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/01/scien ... f=login&th


- - -

Hugh, have you ever considered the possibility that you are an unwitting patsy of the CIA - that perhaps they have programmed you to spout inane, ridiculous bullshit all over this board in order to discredit and derail the whole thing? That your relentless, omnipresent focus on "keyword hijacking" deters conversation about much more effective, direct, and nonfictional ways in which the PTB manipulate the masses through media?

Just a thought.

Chew...bacca...the....wookie. "Chew tobacco, rookie."

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:10 am
by tron
Image

nice to see he done well in the intelligence tests