Every Vertebrate Is Just a Little Bit Gay

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Every Vertebrate Is Just a Little Bit Gay

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:09 pm

Comment and context below.

http://seedmagazine.com/content/print/t ... al_kingdom

SEEDMAGAZINE.COM

The Gay Animal Kingdom

Evolution by Jonah Lehrer / June 7, 2006

The effeminate sheep and other problems with Darwinian sexual selection.

From the JUN/JUL 2006 issue of Seed:

Credit: Catherine Ledner

Joan Roughgarden thinks Charles Darwin made a terrible mistake. Not about natural selection—she’s no bible-toting creationist—but about his other great theory of evolution: sexual selection. According to Roughgarden, sexual selection can’t explain the homosexuality that’s been documented in over 450 different vertebrate species. This means that same-sex sexuality—long disparaged as a quirk of human culture—is a normal, and probably necessary, fact of life. By neglecting all those gay animals, she says, Darwin misunderstood the basic nature of heterosexuality.

Male big horn sheep live in what are often called “homosexual societies.” They bond through genital licking and anal intercourse, which often ends in ejaculation. If a male sheep chooses to not have gay sex, it becomes a social outcast. Ironically, scientists call such straight-laced males “effeminate.”

Giraffes have all-male orgies. So do bottlenose dolphins, killer whales, gray whales, and West Indian manatees. Japanese macaques, on the other hand, are ardent lesbians; the females enthusiastically mount each other. Bonobos, one of our closest primate relatives, are similar, except that their lesbian sexual encounters occur every two hours. Male bonobos engage in “penis fencing,” which leads, surprisingly enough, to ejaculation. They also give each other genital massages.

As this list of activities suggests, having homosexual sex is the biological equivalent of apple pie: Everybody likes it. At last count, over 450 different vertebrate species could be beheaded in Saudi Arabia. You name it, there’s a vertebrate out there that does it. Nevertheless, most biologists continue to regard homosexuality as a sexual outlier. According to evolutionary theory, being gay is little more than a maladaptive behavior.

Joan Roughgarden, a professor of biology at Stanford University, wants to change that perception. After cataloging the wealth of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom two years ago in her controversial book Evolution’s Rainbow—and weathering critiques that, she says, stemmed largely from her being transgendered—Roughgarden has set about replacing Darwinian sexual selection with a new explanation of sex. For too long, she says, biology has neglected evidence that mating isn’t only about multiplying. Sometimes, as in the case of all those gay sheep, dolphins and primates, animals have sex just for fun or to cement their social bonds. Homosexuality, Roughgarden says, is an essential part of biology, and can no longer be dismissed. By using the queer to untangle the straight, Roughgarden’s theories have the potential to usher in a scientific sexual revolution.

Darwin’s theory of sex began with an observation about peacocks. For a man who liked to see the world in terms of functional adaptations, the tails of male peacocks seemed like a useless absurdity. Why would nature invest in such a baroque display of feathers? Did male peacocks want to be eaten by predators?

Darwin’s hypothesis was typically brilliant: The peacocks did it for the sake of reproduction. The male’s fancy tail entranced the staid peahen. Darwin used this idea to explain the biological quirks that natural selection couldn’t explain. If a trait wasn’t in the service of survival, then it was probably in the service of seduction. Furthermore, the mechanics of sex helped explain why the genders were so different. Because eggs are expensive and sperm are cheap, “Males of almost all animals have stronger passions than females,” Darwin wrote. “The female…with the rarest of exceptions is less eager than the male…she is coy.” Darwin is telling the familiar Mars and Venus story: Men want sex while women want to cuddle. Females, by choosing who to bed, impose sexual selection onto the species.

Darwin’s theory of sex has been biological dogma ever since he postulated why peacocks flirt. His gendered view of life has become a centerpiece of evolution, one of his great scientific legacies. The culture wars over evolution and common descent notwithstanding, Darwin’s theory of sexual selection has been thoroughly assimilated into mass culture. From sitcoms to beer ads, our coital “instincts” are constantly reaffirmed. Females are wary, and males are horny. Sex is this simple. Or is it?

Indeed, biology now knows better. Nobody is hornier than a female macaque or bonobo (which mount the males because the males are too exhausted to continue the fornication). Peacocks are actually the exception, not the rule.

Roughgarden first began thinking Darwin may have been in error after she attended the 1997 gay pride parade in San Francisco, where she had gone to walk alongside a float in support of transgendered people. Although she had lived her first 52 years as a man, Roughgarden was about to become a woman. The decision hadn’t been easy. For one thing, she was worried about losing her job as a tenured professor of biology at Stanford. (The fear turned out to be unfounded.)

After living for a year in Santa Barbara while undergoing the “physical aspects of the transition,” Roughgarden returned to Stanford in the spring of 1999 and decided to write a book about the biology of sexual diversity. In particular, she wanted to answer the question that had first surfaced in her mind back in 1997. “When I was at that gay pride parade,” Roughgarden remembers, “I was just stunned by the sheer magnitude of the LGBT [Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender] population. Because I’m a biologist, I started asking myself some difficult questions. My discipline teaches that homosexuality is some sort of anomaly. But if the purpose of sexual contact is just reproduction, as Darwin believed, then why do all these gay people exist? A lot of biologists assume that they are somehow defective, that some developmental error or environmental influence has misdirected their sexual orientation. If so, gay and lesbian people are a mistake that should have been corrected a long time ago. But this hasn’t happened. That’s when I had my epiphany. When scientific theory says something’s wrong with so many people, perhaps the theory is wrong, not the people.”

Credit: Catherine Ledner

The resulting book, Evolution’s Rainbow, was an audacious attack on Darwin’s theory of sexual selection. To make her case, Roughgarden filled the text with a staggering collection of animal perversities, from the penises of female spotted hyenas to the mènage à trois tactics of bluegill sunfish. As Roughgarden put it, “What’s coming out [in the past 10-15 years] is to the rest of the species what the Kinsey Report was to humans.”

According to Roughgarden, classic sexual selection can’t account for these strange carnal habits. After all, Darwin imagined sex as a relatively straightforward transaction. Males compete for females. Evolutionary success is defined by the quantity of offspring. Thus, any distractions from the business of making babies—distractions like homosexuality, masturbation, etc.—are precious wastes of fluids. You’d think by now, several hundred million years after sex began, nature would have done away with such inefficiencies, and males and females would only act to maximize rates of sexual reproduction.

But the opposite has happened. Instead of copulation becoming more functional and straightforward, it has only gotten weirder as species have evolved—more sodomy and other frivolous pleasures that are useless for propagating the species. The more socially complex the animal, the more sexual “deviance” it exhibits. Look at primates: Compared to our closest relatives, contemporary, Westernized Homo sapiens are the staid ones.

Despite this new evidence, sexual selection theory is still stuck in the 19th century. The Victorian peacock remains the standard bearer. But as far as Roughgarden is concerned, that’s bad science: “The time has come to declare that sexual theory is indeed false and to stop shoe-horning one exception after another into a sexual selection framework…To do otherwise suggests that sexual selection theory is unfalsifiable, not subject to refutation.”

Roughgarden is an ambitious scientist. She believes it is impossible to comprehend the diversity of sexuality without disowning Darwin. Although she isn’t the first biologist to condemn sexual selection—Darwin’s theory has never been very popular with feminists—she is unusually vocal about cataloguing his empirical errors. “When I began, I didn’t set out to criticize Darwin,” she says. “But I quickly realized that most scientists are pretty dismissive about same-sex sexuality in vertebrates. They think these animals are just having fun or practicing. As long as scientists clung to this old dogma, homosexuality would always be this funny anomaly you didn’t have to account for.”

Roughgarden’s first order of business was proving that homosexuality isn’t a maladaptive trait. At first glance, this seems like a futile endeavor. Being gay clearly makes individuals less likely to pass on their genes, a major biological faux pas. From the perspective of evolution, homosexual behavior has always been a genetic dead end, something that has to be explained away.

But Roughgarden believes that biologists have it backwards. Given the pervasive presence of homosexuality throughout the animal kingdom, same-sex partnering must be an adaptive trait that’s been carefully preserved by natural selection. As Roughgarden points out, “a ‘common genetic disease’ is a contradiction in terms, and homosexuality is three to four orders of magnitude more common than true genetic diseases such as Huntington’s disease.”

So how might homosexuality be good for us? Any concept of sexual selection that emphasizes the selfish propagation of genes and sperm won’t be able to account for the abundance of non-heterosexual sex. All those gay penguins and persons will remain inexplicable. However, if one looks at homosexuality from the perspective of a community, one can begin to see why nature might foster a variety of sexual interactions.

According to Roughgarden, gayness is a necessary side effect of getting along. Homosexuality evolved in tandem with vertebrate societies, in which a motley group of individuals has to either live together or die alone. In fact, Roughgarden even argues that homosexuality is a defining feature of advanced animal communities, which require communal bonds in order to function. “The more complex and sophisticated a social system is,” she writes, “the more likely it is to have homosexuality intermixed with heterosexuality.”

Japanese macaques, an old world primate, illustrate this principle perfectly. Macaque society revolves around females, who form intricate dominance hierarchies within a given group. Males are transient. To help maintain the necessary social networks, female macaques engage in rampant lesbianism. These friendly copulations, which can last up to four days, form the bedrock of macaque society, preventing unnecessary violence and aggression. Females that sleep together will even defend each other from the unwanted advances of male macaques. In fact, behavioral scientist Paul Vasey has found that females will choose to mate with another female, as opposed to a horny male, 92.5% of the time. While this lesbianism probably decreases reproductive success for macaques in the short term, in the long run it is clearly beneficial for the species, since it fosters social stability. “Same-sex sexuality is just another way of maintaining physical intimacy,” Roughgarden says. “It’s like grooming, except we have lots of pleasure neurons in our genitals. When animals exhibit homosexual behavior, they are just using their genitals for a socially significant purpose.”

Roughgarden is now using this model of homosexuality to reimagine heterosexuality. Her conclusions, published last February in Science, are predictably controversial. While Darwin saw males and females as locked in conflict, acting out the ancient battle of their gametes, Roughgarden describes sexual partners as a model of solidarity. “This whole view of the sexes as being at war is just so flawed from the start. First of all, there are all these empirical exceptions, like homosexuality. And then there’s the logical inconsistency of it all. Why would a male ever jettison control of his evolutionary destiny? Why would he entrust females to serendipitously raise their shared young? The fact is, males and females are committed to cooperate.”

Consider the Eurasian oystercatcher, a shore bird that enjoys feasting on shellfish. A consistent minority of oystercatcher families are polygynous, in which a lucky male mates with two different females simultaneously. These threesomes come in two different flavors: aggressive and cooperative. In an aggressive threesome, the females are at war; they attack each other frequently, and try to disrupt the egg-laying process of their fellow spouse. So far, so Darwinian: Life is nasty, brutish and short. However, the cooperative threesome is everything Darwin didn’t expect. These females share a nest, mate with each other several times a day, and preen their feathers together. It’s domestic bliss.

Credit: Catherine Ledner

In Roughgarden’s Science paper, she uses “cooperative game theory” to elucidate the diverse mating habits of the oystercatcher. Whereas Darwin held that conflict was the natural state of life (we are all Hobbesian bullies at heart), Roughgarden sees cooperation as our default position. This makes mathematical sense: The family that sleeps together has more offspring. Why, then, do oystercatcher females occasionally engage in all out war? According to Roughgarden, violence occurs when “social negotiations” break down. Although the birds really want to get along (who doesn’t like being preened?), something goes awry. The end result is risky violence, in which one female or both will end the breeding season without an egg.

The advantage of Roughgarden’s new theory is that it can explain a wider spectrum of sexual behaviors than Darwinian sexual selection. Lesbian oystercatchers and gay mountain sheep? Their homosexuality is just a prelude to social cooperation, a pleasurable way of avoiding wanton conflict. But what about the peacock and all those other examples of sexual dimorphism? According to Roughgarden, “expensive, functionally useless badges like the peacock’s tail…are admission tickets”: they just get you in the door. If you don’t have a ticket, you are ruthlessly denied breeding rights, like an uncool kid at the prom.

Of course, most humans don’t see sex as a way of maintaining the social contract. Our lust doesn’t seem logical, especially when that logic involves the abstruse calculations of game theory. Furthermore, it’s strange for most people to think of themselves as naturally bisexual. Being gay or straight seems to be an intrinsic and implacable part of our identity. Roughgarden disagrees. “In our culture, we assume that there is a straight-gay binary, and that you are either one or the other. But if you look at vertebrates, that just isn’t the case. You will almost never find animals or primates that are exclusively gay. Other human cultures show the same thing.” Since Roughgarden believes that the hetero/homo distinction is a purely cultural creation, and not a fact of biology, she thinks it is only a matter of time before we return to the standard primate model. “I’m convinced that in 50 years, the gay-straight dichotomy will dissolve. I think it just takes too much social energy to preserve. All this campy, flamboyant behavior: It’s just such hard work.”

Despite Roughgarden’s long list of peer-reviewed articles in prestigious journals, most evolutionary biologists remain skeptical of her conclusions. For one thing, it’s tough to measure the benefits of diversity—or lesbian pair bonding. It’s even harder to imagine how traits that are good for the group get passed on by individuals. (As a result, group selection has largely been replaced by kin selection.) In the absence of anything conclusive, most scientists stick with Darwin and Dawkins.

Other biologists think Roughgarden is exaggerating the importance of homosexuality. Invertebrate zoologist Stephen Shuster told Nature that Roughgarden “throws out a very healthy baby with some slightly soiled bathwater.” And biologist Alison Jolly, in an otherwise positive review of Evolution’s Rainbow for Science, conceded that Roughgarden ultimately fails in her ambition to “revolutionize current biological theories of sexual selection.” As far as these mainstream biologists are concerned, Roughgarden’s gay primates and transgendered fish are simply interesting sexual deviants, statistical outliers in a world that contains plenty of peacocks. As Paul Z. Myers, a biologist at the University of Minnesota, put it, “I think much of what Roughgarden says is very interesting. But I think she discounts many of the modifications that have been made to sexual selection since Darwin originally proposed it. So in that sense, her Darwin is a straw man. You don’t have to dismiss the modern version of sexual selection in order to explain social bonding or homosexuality.”

Roughgarden remains defiant. “I think many scientists discount me because of who I am. They assume that I can’t be objective, that I’ve got some bias or hidden LGBT agenda. But I’m just trying to understand the data. At this point, we have thousands of species that deviate from the standard account of Darwinian sexual selection. So we get all these special case exemptions, and we end up downplaying whatever facts don’t fit. The theory is becoming Ptolemaic. It clearly has the trajectory of a hypothesis in trouble.”

Roughgarden’s cataloging of sexual diversity has challenged a fundamental biological theory. If Darwinian sexual selection—whatever its current variant—is to survive, it must adapt to this new data and come up with convincing explanations for why a host of animals just aren’t like peacocks.


I think Roughgarden is providing an important service, but she and this article unnecessarily pose her research as a challenge to Darwinian theory, rather than to the reductionist understanding of it typified by Dawkins. If you understand natural (and sexual) selection as operating primarily on discrete information packets you think you've isolated as genes conveying extremely specific properties and behavioral instincts, then yeah, this abundance of gay love in the animal kingdom seems to make no sense. But if you understand selection's primary mode being that of determining which species come to occupy given niches and habitats, as Gould did, then it makes sense that vertebrates who bond socially including through the means of constantly pleasuring each other will have an advantage.

Anyway, the above article has come up in the news again because an Illinois high school teacher was suspended last week after assigning it as an optional reading to an honors English class!

http://crooksandliars.com/logan-murphy/ ... ing-articl

Crooks and Liars wrote:IL Teacher Suspended For Assigning Article On Homosexuality In Animals
By Logan Murphy Saturday Oct 31, 2009 4:00pm


Bigotry is not a natural instinct, it is taught. Homosexuality is as natural as the sun in the sky, but ignorant, hateful people will never accept that fact. The suspension of this high school teacher in Piasa, Illinois is a perfect example of how this hatred and ignorance infests the minds of our children:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/gen ... osexuality

Yesterday, Mr. Delong, a 10th and 12th grade Honors English teacher in Piasa, IL was suspended for assigning an article about homosexuality in the animal kingdom to his students. Should teachers ask their students to read about controversial topics? Should we allow parents veto power over the curriculum

Mr. Delong is reportedly a married, heterosexual teacher who identifies as an ally of the GLBTQ community and clearly has the respect and admiration of his students. This is just one of many examples of how teachers are taught to be conservative and non-controversial and why GLBTQ youth don't feel safe in schools. If a school district considers teaching with a scientific article written by a professor at Stanford University and published in a popular science magazine as controversial and worthy of suspension - then how can we convince other educators to stand up and teach critically? In order to help students learn to become critical thinkers and active citizens in a participatory democracy, it is essential to have teachers encourage students to question normative thinking and learn to critically evaluate information for themselves -- particulary with respect to sex, gender, and sexuality.


I applaud Mr. Delong for attempting to teach his students the art of critical thinking and to open their minds to facts. There is a Facebook page supporting Mr. Delong, stop by and show your support if you like.


Discuss.
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Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:13 pm

Does this mean nature is unnatural?
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

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Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:40 pm

Could it be that homosexuality becomes more commonplace (more gay animals/people are born) when a species begins to fill up it's available localized living space? That would be a clever way for evolution to naturally prevent overpopulation. I'm pretty sure evolution doesn't work that fast, though... so probably not.

Great article. Thanks Jack.
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Postby JackRiddler » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:20 pm

Ahab, wow that's a fascinating thought. New to me, I wonder if any biologists have hypothesized along that line.

I'd be of the idea that people are lined up along an axis from exclusively hetero to exclusively gay, though it seems to be out of fashion. Men perhaps more so. At any rate, I'm under the impression that the old civilian army prior to Vietnam and many other all male institutions like English public schools were once a riot of man on man action. (With the excuse that "Hey, I'm not gay, I just like to fuck men," as Ray Cohn the character says in Angels in America.) On the other hand, maybe I'm relying over much on Gore Vidal. And Dr. Kinsey. It doesn't seem to be the case in the professional modern military, or the NFL. Yet. Should outing ever hit pro sports, half this country will truly believe the end of the world is nigh.
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Postby jfshade » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:32 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
If you understand natural (and sexual) selection as operating primarily on discrete information packets you think you've isolated as genes conveying extremely specific properties and behavioral instincts, then yeah, this abundance of gay love in the animal kingdom seems to make no sense.

It seems quite sensible if you accept this assertion by Roughgarden:
In our culture, we assume that there is a straight-gay binary, and that you are either one or the other. But if you look at vertebrates, that just isn’t the case. You will almost never find animals or primates that are exclusively gay. Other human cultures show the same thing.” Since Roughgarden believes that the hetero/homo distinction is a purely cultural creation, and not a fact of biology, she thinks it is only a matter of time before we return to the standard primate model.

Reproductively successful gay behaviors associated with genes carried by bisexual individuals.
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Postby JackRiddler » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:46 pm

jfshade wrote:JackRiddler wrote:
If you understand natural (and sexual) selection as operating primarily on discrete information packets you think you've isolated as genes conveying extremely specific properties and behavioral instincts, then yeah, this abundance of gay love in the animal kingdom seems to make no sense.

It seems quite sensible if you accept this assertion by Roughgarden:
In our culture, we assume that there is a straight-gay binary, and that you are either one or the other. But if you look at vertebrates, that just isn’t the case. You will almost never find animals or primates that are exclusively gay. Other human cultures show the same thing.” Since Roughgarden believes that the hetero/homo distinction is a purely cultural creation, and not a fact of biology, she thinks it is only a matter of time before we return to the standard primate model.

Reproductively successful gay behaviors associated with genes carried by bisexual individuals.


Well, you're right and that's that. I let myself be swayed by the strange skew in the article that her findings must force a revision. Monkeys don't have a culture defining a mostly gay monkey as off-limits for reproduction, and if gay is associated genetically with sociability, that's who's going to reproduce.
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Postby aimdrained » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:49 pm

Ahab: I don't think the overpopulation hypothesis for explaining homosexuality behavior works out well.
But for a second, consider that this was the case, that homosexuality emerged more and more as a population maximized the potential use of a location. We might be tempted to say that evolution is working here to control the population, that evolution is working in the best interest of the species.
But if that were true, 'what' would be making the decision?
It would entail some kind of higher-order decision-making 'something', and that's something I'm not comfortable accepting because its just conjecture.
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Postby jfshade » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:08 pm

Regardless of whether one believes that Roughgarden's ideas necessitate a reevaluation of sexual selection theory or that they merely attack a straw man version of it, her research findings of a range of bisexual behaviors across vertebrates to the near exclusion of binary gay/straight behavior is fascinating.
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Postby JackRiddler » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:34 pm

aimdrained wrote:Ahab: I don't think the overpopulation hypothesis for explaining homosexuality behavior works out well.
But for a second, consider that this was the case, that homosexuality emerged more and more as a population maximized the potential use of a location. We might be tempted to say that evolution is working here to control the population, that evolution is working in the best interest of the species.
But if that were true, 'what' would be making the decision?
It would entail some kind of higher-order decision-making 'something', and that's something I'm not comfortable accepting because its just conjecture.


aimdrained: Imagine different tribes of polygamous monkeys competing within the same habitat. Alphas have preferential or exclusive access to multiple females. Beta males are shut out of reproduction but the younger ones still compete for alpha status. Suppose the tribes as wholes vary in their inclination to enjoy non-procreative sexuality. It doesn't have to be a gay gene per se, but one conveying greater flexibility about when and with whom one does what for pleasure. Hypothesis is that the tribes with greater general proclivities will be likelier to cohere socially, compete less amongst themselves, and cooperate more effectively to defend against predators and the other, "less gay" groups, which are disadvantaged by more frequent fights for alpha status and generally surly manners because they're not sexually satisfied. In this scenario, the overpopulation becomes the selective force favoring the groups with the more flexible sexual proclivities over those without.
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Postby jfshade » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:53 pm

Jack, I think this is an interesting and plausible hypothetical of how enjoying "non-procreative sexuality" might have arisen in species like primates. My only quibble - and it is minor in the thrust of your argument, but important in the theory of how natural selection actually works - is with your statement that "the overpopulation becomes the selective force favoring the groups with the more flexible sexual proclivities over those without." I find this a little fuzzy when you get down to the biochemical mechanisms by which this process proceeds. The weight of opinion among people who actually do evolutionary biology rests on the hard-won conclusion that the selective pressure is exerted on and favors the genes that, when it's all sorted out, play nice with the other genes that form the organisms they design, and help to foster their own sustainability in their genomes through generations. The groups of organisms aren't favored; individual genes experience success in organisms and propagate, and hence bestow advantage upon the relatively reproductively isolated tribes they inhabit.
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Postby JackRiddler » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:02 am

jfshade wrote:Jack, I think this is an interesting and plausible hypothetical of how enjoying "non-procreative sexuality" might have arisen in species like primates. My only quibble - and it is minor in the thrust of your argument, but important in the theory of how natural selection actually works - is with your statement that "the overpopulation becomes the selective force favoring the groups with the more flexible sexual proclivities over those without." I find this a little fuzzy when you get down to the biochemical mechanisms by which this process proceeds. The weight of opinion among people who actually do evolutionary biology rests on the hard-won conclusion that the selective pressure is exerted on and favors the genes that, when it's all sorted out, play nice with the other genes that form the organisms they design, and help to foster their own sustainability in their genomes through generations. The groups of organisms aren't favored; individual genes experience success in organisms and propagate, and hence bestow advantage upon the relatively reproductively isolated tribes they inhabit.


As a political science major I'm allowed a bit of fuzziness!

Let's say the gene allowing sexual flexibility started with an alpha, and thus spread to the rest of the tribe over a number of generations. Turned out to encourage social cohesion, which became an advantage especially once the tribe was forced into greater competition with other tribes due to population growth. Call me dense, I don't really see that selection doesn't work on the group as well as individual level. Clearly it does, groups supplant and sometimes even exterminate other groups, thus disadvantaging even those individuals in the losing groups who as individuals may be more fit to the environment. No?
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Postby monster » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:20 am

JackRiddler wrote:disadvantaged by more frequent fights


Wouldn't that just make them better fighters?
"I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline."
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Postby JackRiddler » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:53 am

monster wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:disadvantaged by more frequent fights


Wouldn't that just make them better fighters?


Why don't you try it out and see?
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Postby monster » Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:13 am

JackRiddler wrote:
monster wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:disadvantaged by more frequent fights


Wouldn't that just make them better fighters?


Why don't you try it out and see?


My mistake - I thought I saw a serious, interesting discussion here.
"I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline."
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Postby jfshade » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:57 am

JackRiddler wrote:As a political science major I'm allowed a bit of fuzziness!

Let's say the gene allowing sexual flexibility started with an alpha, and thus spread to the rest of the tribe over a number of generations. Turned out to encourage social cohesion, which became an advantage especially once the tribe was forced into greater competition with other tribes due to population growth. Call me dense, I don't really see that selection doesn't work on the group as well as individual level. Clearly it does, groups supplant and sometimes even exterminate other groups, thus disadvantaging even those individuals in the losing groups who as individuals may be more fit to the environment. No?


Meant to respond yesterday, but when I saw that I had written the words "enjoying non-procreative sexuality", I was cast into a vortex of despondency for the rest of the evening. But, anyway, my view is that if you refer to selection working on the group you are speaking metaphorically. The real selection events happen at a lower level, though they certainly have consequences for individual organisms and their social groups.

But nobody has addressed the proximate cause of your original post - the teacher who has been suspended for assigning the Roughgarden article to his Honors English tenth graders. The witch hunting elders of the Piasa, IL, (pronounced "pie-a-saw") school board not only suspended him, but
... even called in state child welfare authorities to determine whether the assignment might amount to child abuse.
???
I can see I'm really going to enjoy the new Middle Ages here. My daughter is a junior at a highly regarded selective enrollment high school in Chicago. When her AP Lit teacher assigned "Lolita" to the class, quite a few parents of these high achievers raised strenuous objections. What the fuck are they worried about? Whence all the hysterical, ignorant fear? Am I missing some critical dose of bat shit crazy by neglecting to watch TV?
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