How Bad Is Global Warming?

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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:26 am

Dr.Evil said

DrEvil » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:20 am wrote:Pardon my french, but that daily maul article is garbage. If it's about climate change and in the daily mail there's a five sigma probability that it's bullshit. It's fake news. The last paragraph quoted should tell you they're full of shit:

The scandal has disturbing echoes of the ‘Climategate’ affair which broke shortly before the UN climate summit in 2009, when the leak of thousands of emails between climate scientists suggested they had manipulated and hidden data. Some were British experts at the influential Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia.


There was no fucking climategate. It was all cherry-picked bullshit. Eight different committees investigated the claims and none of them found anything wrong with the science, so pretty please, next time you see someone rail about climategate either ignore them or tell them to shut the fuck up and educate themselves.

Here's a detailed takedown of the daily mail fake news:
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-m ... ature-rise

And another:
http://www.lse.ac.uk/GranthamInstitute/ ... on-sunday/





quit the fucking derogatory babyish stupid name calling..this is RI not the kindergarten playground
Last edited by seemslikeadream on Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Blue » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:34 am

coffin_dodger » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:50 am wrote:drivel said:
so pretty please, next time you see someone rail about climategate either ignore them or tell them to shut the fuck up and educate themselves.

S'funny - when I first joined RI, I totally believed in man-made climate change.
But slowly, not least through the intolerance shown by the in-crowd, my perceptions have changed.
I still believe, but don't want to be associated in any way with a mindset that would treat dissent thus; "tell them to shut the fuck up and educate themselves".
And you think you're making a difference? :rofl2
You have. Just not in the way you imagine.


See, here's how science works: it's not about what you or anyone else believes. It's about the facts. Oh, and alt-facts.

Jeff Masters Explains it All

The battle over global warming
In 1988, the fossil fuel industry realized it had a serious problem. The summer of 1988 had shattered century-old records for heat and drought in the U.S., and NASA's Dr. James Hansen, one of the foremost climate scientists in the world, testified before Congress that human-caused global warming was partially to blame. A swelling number of scientific studies were warning of the threat posed by human-cause climate change, and that consumption of fossil fuels needed to slow down. Naturally, the fossil fuel industry fought back. They launched a massive PR campaign that continues to this day, led by the same think tanks that worked to discredit the ozone depletion theory. The George C. Marshall Institute, the Competitive Enterprise Institute, Heartland Institute, and Dr. Fred Singer's SEPP (Science and Environmental Policy Project) have all been key players in both fights, and there are numerous other think tanks involved. Many of the same experts who had worked hard to discredit the science of the well-established link between cigarette smoke and cancer, the danger the CFCs posed to the ozone layer, and the dangers to health posed by a whole host of toxic chemicals, were now hard at work to discredit the peer-reviewed science supporting human-caused climate change.

As is the case with any Manufactured Doubt campaign, a respected scientist was needed to lead the battle. One such scientist was Dr. Frederick Seitz, a physicist who in the 1960s chaired the organization many feel to be the most prestigious science organization in the world--the National Academy of Sciences. Seitz took a position as a paid consultant for R.J. Reynolds tobacco company beginning in 1978, so was well-versed in the art of Manufactured Doubt. According to the excellent new book, Climate Cover-up, written by desmogblog.com co-founder James Hoggan and Richard Littlemore, over a 10-year period Seitz was responsible for handing out $45 million in tobacco company money to researchers who overwhelmingly failed to link tobacco to anything the least bit negative. Seitz received over $900,000 in compensation for his efforts. He later became a founder of the George C. Marshall Institute, and used his old National Academy of Sciences affiliation to lend credibility to his attacks on global warming science until his death in 2008 at the age of ninety-six. It was Seitz who launched the "Oregon Petition", which contains the signatures of more than 34,000 scientists saying global warming is probably natural and not a crisis. The petition is a regular feature of the Manufactured Doubt campaign against human-caused global warming. The petition lists the "Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine" as its parent organization. According to Climate Cover-up, the Institute is a farm shed situated a couple of miles outside of Cave Junction, OR (population 17,000). The Institute lists seven faculty members, two of whom are dead, and has no ongoing research and no students. It publishes creationist-friendly homeschooler curriculums books on surviving nuclear war. The petition was sent to scientists and was accompanied by a 12-page review printed in exactly the same style used for the prestigious journal, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. A letter from Seitz, who is prominently identified as a former National Academy of Sciences president, accompanied the petition and review. Naturally, many recipients took this to be an official National Academy of Sciences communication, and signed the petition as a result. The National Academy issued a statement in April 2008, clarifying that it had not issued the petition, and that its position on global warming was the opposite. The petition contains no contact information for the signers, making it impossible to verify. In its August 2006 issue, Scientific American presented its attempt to verify the petition. They found that the scientists were almost all people with undergraduate degrees, with no record of research and no expertise in climatology. Scientific American contacted a random sample of 26 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to have a Ph.D. in a climate related science. Eleven said they agreed with the petition, six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember the petition, one had died, and five did not respond.

I could say much more about the Manufactured Doubt campaign being waged against the science of climate change and global warming, but it would fill an entire book. In fact, it has, and I recommend reading Climate Cover-up to learn more. The main author, James Hoggan, owns a Canadian public relations firm, and is intimately familiar with how public relations campaigns work. Suffice to say, the Manufactured Doubt campaign against global warming--funded by the richest corporations in world history--is probably the most extensive and expensive such effort ever. We don't really know how much money the fossil fuel industry has pumped into its Manufactured Doubt campaign, since they don't have to tell us. The website exxonsecrets.org estimates that ExxonMobil alone spent $20 million between 1998 - 2007 on the effort. An analysis done by Desmogblog's Kevin Grandia done in January 2009 found that skeptical global warming content on the web had doubled over the past year. Someone is paying for all that content.

Lobbyists, not skeptical scientists
The history of the Manufactured Doubt industry provides clear lessons in evaluating the validity of their attacks on the published peer-reviewed climate change science. One should trust that the think tanks and allied "skeptic" bloggers such as Steve McIntyre of Climate Audit and Anthony Watts of Watts Up With That will give information designed to protect the profits of the fossil fuel industry. Yes, there are respected scientists with impressive credentials that these think tanks use to voice their views, but these scientists have given up their objectivity and are now working as lobbyists. I don't like to call them skeptics, because all good scientists should be skeptics. Rather, the think tanks scientists are contrarians, bent on discrediting an accepted body of published scientific research for the benefit of the richest and most powerful corporations in history. Virtually none of the "sound science" they are pushing would ever get published in a serious peer-reviewed scientific journal, and indeed the contrarians are not scientific researchers. They are lobbyists. Many of them seem to believe their tactics are justified, since they are fighting a righteous war against eco-freaks determined to trash the economy.

I will give a small amount of credit to some of their work, however. I have at times picked up some useful information from the contrarians, and have used it to temper my blogs to make them more balanced. For example, I no longer rely just on the National Climatic Data Center for my monthly climate summaries, but instead look at data from NASA and the UK HADCRU source as well. When the Hurricane Season of 2005 brought unfounded claims that global warming was to blame for Hurricane Katrina, and a rather flawed paper by researchers at Georgia Tech showing a large increase in global Category 4 and 5 hurricanes, I found myself agreeing with the contrarians' analysis of the matter, and my blogs at the time reflected this.

The contrarians and the hacked CRU emails
A hacker broke into an email server at the Climate Research Unit of the UK's University of East Anglia last week and posted ten years worth of private email exchanges between leading scientists who've published research linking humans to climate change. Naturally, the contrarians have seized upon this golden opportunity, and are working hard to discredit several of these scientists. You'll hear claims by some contrarians that the emails discovered invalidate the whole theory of human-caused global warming. Well, all I can say is, consider the source. We can trust the contrarians to say whatever is in the best interests of the fossil fuel industry. What I see when I read the various stolen emails and explanations posted at Realclimate.org is scientists acting as scientists--pursuing the truth. I can see no clear evidence that calls into question the scientific validity of the research done by the scientists victimized by the stolen emails. There is no sign of a conspiracy to alter data to fit a pre-conceived ideological view. Rather, I see dedicated scientists attempting to make the truth known in face of what is probably the world's most pervasive and best-funded disinformation campaign against science in history. Even if every bit of mud slung at these scientists were true, the body of scientific work supporting the theory of human-caused climate change--which spans hundreds of thousands of scientific papers written by tens of thousands of scientists in dozens of different scientific disciplines--is too vast to be budged by the flaws in the works of the three or four scientists being subject to the fiercest attacks.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby coffin_dodger » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:54 am

Blue:
See, here's how science works: it's not about what you or anyone else believes. It's about the facts. Oh, and alt-facts.

Yep - yet again - so far up yer own arse you can't see the point I'm making.
It's the condescending nature of the way you address *anyone* who challenges any minutae of the established narrative at RI.
See, here's how science works:

This conjures the picture of a small, shrill-voiced child that is not getting their own way. It's snarky, assumptive (suggesting I'm stoopid, stoopid, stoopid) and patronising.
It's not going to work for much longer. It's lasted far too long as it is.
As I said, I believe in global warming, but if means standing amongst a mentality that considers any other views as those of untermenschen, you can occupy that space without me.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:05 pm

"What if the real global warming was the friends we made along the way?"
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:12 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:05 pm wrote:"What if the real global warming was the friends we made along the way?"


Then I would buy the world a Coke.

And keep it company.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VM2eLhvsSM

Cuz it's the real thing.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:28 pm

coffin_dodger » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:50 pm wrote:drivel said:
so pretty please, next time you see someone rail about climategate either ignore them or tell them to shut the fuck up and educate themselves.

S'funny - when I first joined RI, I totally believed in man-made climate change.
But slowly, not least through the intolerance shown by the in-crowd, my perceptions have changed.
I still believe, but don't want to be associated in any way with a mindset that would treat dissent thus; "tell them to shut the fuck up and educate themselves".
And you think you're making a difference? :rofl2
You have. Just not in the way you imagine.


You wanna know why I'm so intolerant of the denier crowd? It's because climategate was thoroughly debunked eight years ago, and they still bring it up. They have no interest in an honest debate, all they care about is twisting things to fit their narrative, so excuse me if I'm fucking sick and tired of that shit.
It's like playing whack-a-mole with a god damn hydra.

And why is it bad to tell someone to "shut the fuck up and educate themselves" when they're repeating a manufactured scandal that was debunked eight years ago? It's not dissent when they're repeating a demonstrable lie eight fucking years after it was shown as such, it's willful ignorance and misinformation and should be called out.

Sorry if you don't like my tone in doing so but I ran out of patience on that particular talking point about seven and a half years ago, and quantum physics is real.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:01 pm

DrEvil » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:28 pm wrote:
coffin_dodger » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:50 pm wrote:drivel said:
so pretty please, next time you see someone rail about climategate either ignore them or tell them to shut the fuck up and educate themselves.

S'funny - when I first joined RI, I totally believed in man-made climate change.
But slowly, not least through the intolerance shown by the in-crowd, my perceptions have changed.
I still believe, but don't want to be associated in any way with a mindset that would treat dissent thus; "tell them to shut the fuck up and educate themselves".
And you think you're making a difference? :rofl2
You have. Just not in the way you imagine.


You wanna know why I'm so intolerant of the denier crowd? It's because climategate was thoroughly debunked eight years ago, and they still bring it up. They have no interest in an honest debate, all they care about is twisting things to fit their narrative, so excuse me if I'm fucking sick and tired of that shit.
It's like playing whack-a-mole with a god damn hydra.

And why is it bad to tell someone to "shut the fuck up and educate themselves" when they're repeating a manufactured scandal that was debunked eight years ago? It's not dissent when they're repeating a demonstrable lie eight fucking years after it was shown as such, it's willful ignorance and misinformation and should be called out.

Sorry if you don't like my tone in doing so but I ran out of patience on that particular talking point about seven and a half years ago, and quantum physics is real.


Did you know that Arctic sea ice is not the lowest, youngest, and thinnest it's ever been in winter? Did you know that some regions in the Arctic are not 50º above normal right now?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:57 pm

I don't know! It's not insane!
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby KUAN » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:14 pm

It's looking like a hot summer eh
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:45 pm

Yup. This is purely anecdotal, but where I live in Norway we've had maybe two weeks barely below freezing and one week of snow (in December) so far this winter. Svalbard has had several days above freezing too. The weather around here has been going haywire for several years now, both winter and summer. We had wildfires in northern Norway in February a few years ago, and this in my neighboring village (also early February):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6FGzR2vcHc
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby KUAN » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:52 pm

The good news is that there is still time to prevent the worst climate changes from occurring


^ has long sounded like wry humour to me. We'll see what the committee comes up with :|
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:59 pm

FAKE NEWS ALERT

Climate change whistleblower alleges NOAA manipulated data to hide global warming 'pause'



DO NOT BUY THE HOUSE SCIENCE COMMITTEE’S CLAIM THAT SCIENTISTS FAKED DATA UNTIL YOU READ THIS
NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE SUPPORTS THAT NOAA FABRICATED DATA; EVIDENCE STILL POINTS TO CLIMATE CHANGE
By Kendra Pierre-Louis 6 hours ago

A killer whale swims amid floating ice in the Ross Sea.
Donald LeRoi, NOAA Southwest Fisheries Science Center

Climate scientists have worked hard for decades to prove climate change. Why is the US House Committee on Science, Space and Technology working so hard not to believe them?
On Sunday February 5th, the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Science, Space, and Technology published a press release alleging, based on questionable evidence, that the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) “manipulated climate records.”
The source of their evidence, according to Committee spokesperson Thea McDonalds, was a Daily Mail article. The Daily Mail is a British tabloid most famous for outlandish headlines such as "Is the Bum the New Side Boob” and "ISIS Chief executioner winning hearts with his rugged looks.” This is not the first time that the House Science Committee has used spurious evidence to dispute the existence of human-driven climate change.
The piece, which quotes John Bates—a scientist who NOAA once employed—challenges the data used in the famous 2015 Karl study. The study, named after Thomas R. Karl—the director of the NOAA’s Centers for Environmental Information (NCEI) and the paper's lead author—was published in Science and debunked the notion of a climate “hiatus” or “cooling.”
The White House Press release, which includes quotes from committee Chairman Lamar Smith as well as Darin Lahood (R-Ill) and Andy Biggs (R-Ariz), misrepresents a procedural disagreement as proof that human caused climate change is not occurring. It's akin to pointing to a family argument as proof that they aren't actually related.
"What the House Committee is trying to do, like they did in the past, is debunk the whole issue of global warming,” said Yochanan Kushnir, a Senior Scientist at the Lamont Doherty Earth Observatory.
At the center of the argument is contention over how NOAA maintains climate data records. Climate researchers receive grants to process and develop climate-related data sets. Once those data sets are fully developed, it becomes the responsibility of NOAA’s National Climactic Data Center (NCDC) to preserve, monitor, and update that data—which can sometimes be what data scientists refer to as messy.
“The problem,” said Kevin Trenberth a Distinguished Senior Scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, “is that this is quite an arduous process, and can take a long time. And, of course NOAA doesn't necessarily get an increase of funds to do this.”
Maintaining this data fell under the purview of Bates' group, and it’s this data that he has taken issue with publicly.
“Bates was complaining that not all of the data sets were being done as thoroughly as he wanted to," said Ternberth. “But there's a compromise you have to make as to whether you can do more data sets or whether you can do more really thoroughly. And the decision was made that you try and do more.”
Scientist holding an ice core sample
NOAA
Ice core samples are used as proxy indicators for past global climate temperatures and atmospheric CO2 concentrations.
Bates takes particular issue with the way Karl handled land temperature data in the Science study which addressed the so-called “climate hiatus." Early analyses of global temperature trends during the first ten years of this century seemed to suggest that warming had slowed down. Climate change doubters used this analysis to support their belief that—despite climatological data which includes 800,000 year ice-core records of atmospheric carbon dioxide—humans have not affected the atmosphere by releasing billions of tons of carbon dioxide per year.
“His primary complaint seems to be that when researchers at NOAA published this paper in Science, while they used a fully developed and vetted ocean temperature product, they used an experimental land temperature product," said Zeke Hausfather, an energy systems analyst and environmental economist with Berkeley Earth. Because climate data comes from a number of different sources, methods of handling that data go through a vetting process that ultimately dictates the use of one for the official government temperature product. That can mean controlling for known defects in the devices that gather climate data or figuring out the best way to put them together. The product that Karl used for land temperature data hadn't finished that process.
"That said," said Hausfather, "the land temperature data they used in the paper is certainly up to the standards of an experimental or research product.”
So what does that mean for those of us on the outside?
Not much.
The record data that Bates takes umbrage with showed roughly the same amount of warming as the old record. And the evidence that the Karl paper cites as to why there’s no hiatus is based on ocean temperatures—not land. A government source who does not wish to be named emphasized that there is no evidence or even a credible suggestion that NOAA falsified data in the Karl et al (K15) study. And even if Bates' critiques were valid—and given that this methodology, after much peer review, is now the default way that NOAA calculates land temperatures, his complaints seem problematic—it doesn't upend the study's conclusion. And —the evidence still supports As for the differences in water temperatures, that can be easily be accounted for by differences in the tools used to measure water temperatures. In the past, as PopSci previously reported, most ocean temperature data was taken by ships which pulled water into their engine rooms—rooms warmer than the ocean outside, making ocean temperature recordings slightly higher. When ocean temperature tracking switched to buoys, which stay in the water all of the time and don’t heat up, NOAA failed to control for the cooler (and arguably more accurate) water temperatures due to the lack of hot ship engines. The Karl study corrects for that temperature difference and Bates’ complaints do nothing to discredit it.
"People should be aware of the fact that there are different groups that analyze the data," said Kushnir. "if you look at all of the sources together you get a bigger, more reliable picture of what's happening. There's the Hadley Center from the UK meteorology office that puts together a data set of global mean temperatures, there's NASA, NOAA, then there's the Berkeley group and the Japanese who have their own way of putting information together."
graph of climate data
NOAA
Zeke Hausfather at Berkeley Earth independently developed an updated version of Figure 2 in Karl et al 2015. The black line shows the new NOAA record, while the thinner blue line shows the results from raw land stations, ships, and buoys with no corrections for station moves or instrument changes. The two are quite similar over the last 50 years; over the last 100 years the corrected data [the one Karl uses] actually shows less global warming.
The Karl paper is also not the only one to tackle the hiatus. Studies in Nature by Stephan Lewandowsky of the Cabot Institute University of Bristol, and this one in the journal Climate Change by Bala Rajaratnam of Stanford University, all say the same thing.
The Karl study’s high profile, however, has made it a frequent target for criticism.
“The whole issue of this hiatus issue was discussed quite heavily in science,” said Kushnir. "And as scientists we understand what happened in this long period.”
Basically, there’s the natural climate variability, and then there’s the variability caused by climate change. The natural variability during this period was cooler, but the climate change impact on top of it was not.
But that isn’t even Bates' complaint, as the House Committee would imply—his complaint is that the data wasn’t vetted heavily enough.
“I interpret a key part of the issue,” said Trenberth, “as, how deep do you go and how far into the research do you go for one particular data set, as opposed to moving onto the next data set and getting that into a much better state than it would have been otherwise.”
Trenberth points to a backlog of data that hasn’t yet been released or updated, pressuring NOAA to focus on volume over perfection. If this sounds to you like an argument for more funding for climate change research instead of less, you're not alone.
“Recommendations about doing these things have been made, but they've never been adequately funded. So we muddle along,” said Trenberth. “And Lamar smith under the house has been responsible for some of this, because they actually cut the funding to enable NOAA to properly deal with and process the data by 30 percent in 2012. So the ability to do this properly has actually been compromised by the House Science Committee and by Lamar Smith in particular.”
The current administration has talked a lot about the “politicization of science.” Meanwhile on the House Committee’s website, Representative Smith states that Bates has exposed the “previous administration’s efforts to push their costly climate agenda at the expense of scientific integrity.” With the House Committee misrepresenting both Bates' complaint and the overarching scientific consensus, it does indeed seem that the politicization of science is a problem the administration needs to deal with.
http://www.popsci.com/regardless-house- ... te-records
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They could still get him out of office.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Sounder » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:55 am

Climate scientists have worked hard for decades to prove climate change.



I got lost on the first sentence because that is not how science is done. Also, there is nothing here to prove, as semantically speaking, climate is always changing. It's just odd to start an article with such word salad, perhaps peoples entrainment levels are being tested.

While this kind of repetition illustrates the power of messaging, the volume is indicative of funding sources that prove this situation to be a political expression rather than being one of science. Because the thing is, as Judith Curry relates in her interview, ‘the job of scientists is to continually question the evidence, and challenge and re-interpret the conclusions, and disagreement is how science moves forward’.

If on the other hand one is working for decades trying to ‘prove climate change’, then that sounds more like doing penance for some original sin in our new, required to be attended, church.

Now contrast the volume of (publicly directed) articles and research related to AGW with that of radiation. Does this mean that Fukushima is no big deal? In contrast to the effects of warming, the effects of radiation seem to allow little room for adaptation. Everybody knows the fragility of nuclear power generation and that without outside power supply these monsters may go into meltdown mode, (because they are so incredibly stupidly designed), so please spare me the hysteria about ‘climate deniers’ (false label), when radiation poisoning, for both the long and short term, appears to common sense as being an orders of magnitude, greater threat to humanity than is the warming of the Earth by .86 degrees in the last hundred years.

There is a reason why folk do not talk about radiation, that shit is truly scary.

(Although I do agree that the climate does appear threatening ATM and that we must innovate beyond our current fossil fuel economy.)

All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby km artlu » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:34 am

Sounder ~ before the slings and arrows bury your post above, I'd like to say yes, science is not about proving orthodoxy. Thanks for saying so.

Most here are probably too young to have witnessed the many urgent warnings from scientists in the '70s of imminent and catastrophic global cooling. The kind that is said to have caused 600,000 famine deaths in France in 1709 - 1710.

As that period, the Maunder Minimum, is accepted to have been closely linked to cratering sunspot activity, it's baffling how the IPCC considers solar activity to be a negligible factor in climate change.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Sounder » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:58 am

km artlu wrote...
As that period, the Maunder Minimum, is accepted to have been closely linked to cratering sunspot activity, it's baffling how the IPCC considers solar activity to be a negligible factor in climate change.


Yes, baffling, or another sign of contrivance. Lack of interest or ability to account for undersea volcanoes produces another hole in the computer modeling.

We must not facilitate the death of common sense.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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