Wikileaks founder Julian Assange is 'annoyed' by 9/11 truth

[Joe Hillshoist]

For me and many of the people who reside in the US, it seems maintaining the official 9/11 narrative is the dominant means by which everything proceeds.
It is citied as the 'reason' for just about every action militarily, and socially. Destroying/exposing that as a false narrative seems a worthy goal.

Yeah but its one of those false false narratives.

Its like Kak Nan Tan's trap.

To know it is to be free of it.

In and of itself its no justification. There is no justification, thats the point. 9/11 doesn't justify any of the actions taken in its name, especially in the context of a democracy supposedly protecting its existence. The actions the US has done in response to 9/11 should be challenged on their own merits.

By definition they are undemocratic and unamerican, if you believe the hype in the constitution.

Therefore they are invalid and do not stand up on their own.


In 50 years people are gonna look at what happening now in your part of the world and say that was a far more significant event.

BTW Good luck with all that.

(I don't know what else to say, and I'm not being trite. The scale of that disaster just blows my mind. My heart breaks for everyone (human, plant and animal) living there.)

[Joe Hillshoist]

Hmmm... It seems to me protestation of 9/11 is coming from folks who are either not forced to live under the tyranny of the government of the U.S. or people who don't like the kitsch/hysteria rising up from the 'culture' of 9/11 truthers. In the field of UFOs we've certainly got some whack jobs, heck in the field of philatelists you've probably got the same. I'd warn those in other places, that faux terror could be coming to your pristine shores, sooner than you think, so to be a student of 9/11 I'd think is of paramount importance to all the peoples of the world. But I guess you're not objecting to having an understanding of 9/11, just??? Actually I still don't get it, but I can see you're pretty ingrained in your views...

The tyranny of govt in the US didn't start with 9/11. Either in the US or outside it.

I know people who escaped Pinochet in the 80s and East Timor in the 70s. Who resisted Marcos in the Phillipines.

And the US was tyrannical at home long ago.

I'd warn those in other places, that faux terror could be coming to your pristine shores, sooner than you think, so to be a student of 9/11 I'd think is of paramount importance to all the peoples of the world.

You mean like the Hilton Hotel bombing in Sydney 33 years ago?

Paramount importance ... some seppo rich country has a craptacular spectacle and the rest of the world is sposed to be caring about it 10 years later? Get some perspective....

Thats what is so irritating - do you think the rest of the world is so dumb, and what happens there so unimportant?

[Montag]

The tyranny of govt in the US didn't start with 9/11. Either in the US or outside it.

I know people who escaped Pinochet in the 80s and East Timor in the 70s. Who resisted Marcos in the Phillipines.

And the US was tyrannical at home long ago.

You don't think I know this? I didn't just crawl out of a hole on 9/11. The point is, it is a useful tool for some of those who were slumbering before 9/11 (it took me years to fully grasp some of this stuff about 9/11, I'm sure there are many other slow learners out there too). I assume you're familiar with Operation Northwoods, at the time Kennedy condemned that, 9/11 represented the ability of the empire to up the ante. Nothing's any longer sacred, apparently we've gone from militarists to sociopaths running the country in 50 years.

This is where your argument gets sketchy... You are concerned about dictators such as Pinochet and Marcos and massacres in places like East Timor. The twin towers were very cosmopolitan buildings, I'm sure some of your countrymen died there, and apparently Americans are subhuman to you so you're not too concerned about them (apparently you subscribe to the Churchillian theory of a bunch of Eichmanns slaving away for an insidious, demonic empire), citizens of all the world died in the Twin Towers. I'm concerned about my fellow man or woman being reduced to cannon fodder wherever that might occur. I don't consider myself to be an altruist or anything like that, but apparently you're not even in the discussion.

You mean like the Hilton Hotel bombing in Sydney 33 years ago?

Paramount importance ... some seppo rich country has a craptacular spectacle and the rest of the world is sposed to be caring about it 10 years later? Get some perspective....

Thats what is so irritating - do you think the rest of the world is so dumb, and what happens there so unimportant?

No I find your vision of the world to be quaint... Have you missed all this talk of globalization/the NWO etc.? The gulag will be global... The agenda is global, the playing field is global, there won't be too many safe harbors, or peaceful enclaves in the future I don't think. Enjoy the sands of the hourglass ticking away on the sanctuary that you've built for yourself in your neck of the woods, my friend.

[wintler2]

..
No I find your vision of the world to be quaint... Have you missed all this talk of globalization/the NWO etc.? The gulag will be global..

The gulag has been global since before i was born, you and i are merely having our accommodation downgraded, and you want to fight about the uniform on the guards.

The current incarnation '911= need for war on terror' is where it (systemic violence) is most bloody (still mostly for foreigners), but is no means the limit of it. Economic rationalism, growthism, anglosphere is best, might is right, men 'naturally lead' (women), 'you deserve it', those are some of the other lies covering for other wars by some more and some less organised forms of systemic violence.

If you believe 911 is the most important fight for you, thats fine, you are the best person to judge that. But its wrong to malign another for choosing a different part of much the same fight.

-

On a different track, i can think of good strategic reasons for Assenge to talk the mainstream line on 911 whatever his own views, to lie.

Doing so would a. avoid alienating a portion of his audience, b. avoid additionally antagonising some of wikipedia's more powerful enemies, c. possibly draw out a leaker with relevant info. a. & b. might be rephrased as 'why fight an enemy where it is strongest?'

[Joe Hillshoist]

The twin towers were very cosmopolitan buildings, I'm sure some your countrymen died there, and apparently Americans are subhuman to you so you're not too concerned about them (apparently you subscribe to the Churchillian theory of a bunch of Eichmanns slaving away for an insidious, demonic empire), citizens of all the world died in the Twin Towers.

The twin towers were the symbol of rich americans screwing the world.

I'm not sad they collapsed they way they did. I'm only sad that the majority of those killed were working stiffs and emergency workers. I'm certainly not outraged that some Aussies died there. Especially just cos they were Australian. Thats the worst sort of jingoism.

And its not that I'm not concerned for americans, just irritated the way some of them assume the only important things that happen ... happen to them.

The point is, it is a useful tool for some of those who were slumbering before 9/11

No it isn't. They are still asleep.

And they were asleep all the way through all the tyrannical bullshit that followed 9/11 that should have been resisted on its own merits because of its anti democratic, unconstitutional nature.

Ok maybe some people had their eyes opened by 9/11.

In those cases to me its more like 9/11 is a spotlight, and they are rabbits.

[norton ash]

Assange is okay with me.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=28995

Maybe he'll GET to 9/11.

[thatsmystory]

It appears (at least) two arguments are being made:

1) 9/11 truth is myopic. Too invested in the unlikely scenario that a public awakening or 9/11 whistleblower will magically transform US society for the better.

I get that argument. It's hard to dispute.

2) Criticizing high profile people on the left for failing to question 9/11 is unfair. After all, they are probably playing 20 dimensional chess.

I don't get this argument. No way am I going to pretend it's ok for someone to tell me Lee Hamilton got it right.

[Montag]

The twin towers were the symbol of rich americans screwing the world.

Your view of America is quaint also... Almost as if I would think that Crocodile Dundee represents some kind of a typical Australian. I had a Canadian friend ask me years ago, why the cities were all boarded up and there were so many condemned buildings in every American city that he'd been to. Decades of neoliberalism and market fundamentalism will tend to do that to a country... Whatever, I can tell the virulent opposition to exposing 9/11 is irrational, this was a very interesting learning experience.

The Wealth Distribution

from Wealth, Income and Power

In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2007, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 34.6% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 50.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth (total net worth minus the value of one's home), the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 42.7%. Table 1 and Figure 1 present further details drawn from the careful work of economist Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2010).

I'm not sad they collapsed they way they did. I'm only sad that the majority of those killed were working stiffs and emergency workers. I'm certainly not outraged that some Aussies died there. Especially just cos they were Australian. Thats the worst sort of jingoism.

And its not that I'm not concerned for americans, just irritated the way some of them assume the only important things that happen ... happen to them.

No it isn't. They are still asleep.

And they were asleep all the way through all the tyrannical bullshit that followed 9/11 that should have been resisted on its own merits because of its anti democratic, unconstitutional nature.

Ok maybe some people had their eyes opened by 9/11.

In those cases to me its more like 9/11 is a spotlight, and they are rabbits.

I can't disagree with much here, you finished strong.

[Joe Hillshoist]

I dunno if Assange is "on the left".

He is associated with an arganisation (typo but I'll leave it in) that provides a place for whistlebolwers to do their thing.

Thats about it really.

Apart from the propaganda effort that accompanied the video from the chopper in Iraq I dunno if wikileaks has ever had a "political" agenda. Other than providing information that is otherwise suppressed.

Its arrogant for those of us on "teh left" to assume anyone who does something we agree with is also a lefty.


Anyway for those of you that are interested...

http://911.wikileaks.org/



Dunno whats in it or if its any good.

Maybe Assange assumed that the truth movement had gone through that info with a fine tooth comb and found nothing, since it was well over 6 months ago that wikileaks released it.

Montag, just saw your post. "The twin towers were the symbol of rich americans screwing the world." (- me) The world includes unrich americans. And rich ones for that matter, as they are always trying to screw each other as well. The towers were the symbols for that whole dynamic.

Rich Americans doesn't mean all Americans.... Maybe I should have said Wall St.

In fact if the whole thing was portrayed as the attack on Wall St and the Pentagon, or the M.I.C. instead of the "attack on America" how different the last 9 years would have been.

[Joe Hillshoist]

From SLADs thread...

I admit we share the same first name, and I have a feeling he actually went to my school for a while (If the person I'm thinking of was him ... well his acne has cleared up), if not he hung out with guys who did in the v late 80s.

So I admit I like the idea of him being on the level, but I know that.

Anyway...


There were rumours about this document release when the video about the chopper came out. Since then he's copped alot of flack in the media - wired can get fucked too - pretty systematically.

Then an article that attempts to "bad jacket" him appears on a 9/11 truth site less than a week before the org he is associated with releases the documents this thread (well, the other one actually) is about.

[82_28]

But isn't the Internet itself not just one "wikileak" of far more vast proportions? The Internet is quickly becoming only a place to get weather, odd facts and to network with old friends. I don't see the need of a "wikileaks" honestly. It is placing a name and label on what used to be just what the Internet was. Sure, maybe it's good to have all the "leaks" in one place. But that would be in a perfect world and in a perfect world there would be no need for wikileaks in the first place. And that wikileaks now must be figureheaded by an up and coming Internet meme of a name and thus be subsumed in eventuality by the greater media at large as what the "Internet is up to", says something about what we're dealing with.

There is no "place" on the Internet to get info. The Internet IS info. If we put all eggs in one basket when it comes to how we filter our modern lives, it becomes so concentrated that it makes dilution of information and no heads or tails to be made of real information. There is a major weak link when it comes to wikileaks. And that is wikileaks.

Perhaps it is fully transparent. Perhaps it really is for real. Still, though, it is not safe. Outlets like cryptome I trust far more, as the dude has stayed out of the spotlight the best he could -- though he did have some legal shit a few months ago. Do I distrust wikileaks? No. It's fine. But there needs to be a million more wikileaks, not one memorable figurehead and it needs to not subvert the idea that the Internet is one BIG WIKILEAK as it is. Perhaps we've simply just reached the center of the Internet where it meets Human consciousness and that center just will not hold.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Perhaps it is fully transparent. Perhaps it really is for real. Still, though, it is not safe. Outlets like cryptome I trust far more, as the dude has stayed out of the spotlight the best he could -- though he did have some legal shit a few months ago. Do I distrust wikileaks? No. It's fine. But there needs to be a million more wikileaks, not one memorable figurehead and it needs to not subvert the idea that the Internet is one BIG WIKILEAK as it is. Perhaps we've simply just reached the center of the Internet where it meets Human consciousness and that center just will not hold.

Wikileaks on Cryptome:

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Cryptome.org_ ... 4_Feb_2010

So even while the dude from Cryptome was attacking them they were defending him. During those legal troubles you mentioned.

I agree with you that the internet should be one big wikileak.

But it isn't.

Thats why they claim to have so many people working to remove identifying info from the documents they release. Because although it should be anonymous the internet isn't.

[82_28]

Slashdot has also been doing this for years. The founder of a website need not become a subveris-ible celebrity in and of his amount of concern for spreading "leaks". Anybody ever seen a pic of Cmdrtaco? It dilutes the real leaks. More shit has been broken at slashdot than anywhere ever. Leaks happen, but you CANNOT CREATE A MARKET FOR THEM - otherwise they lose all meaning and cease to be "leaks". We all know these wars are frauds. We all know. Wikileaks and the figurehead of Assange, in my opinion is an attack on the freedom of the Internet, period. Remember how weird shit got after 9/11? They're amping up for a new barrage of shocking strangeness. The legacy of the Internet will be slung around our necks with a noose made out of things like wikileaks. Then the Internet will die. As we know it, I guess, it will die.

We're one big calamity away from doing away with the 'net. I am thinking it will be the erasure of a whole American city in one fell swoop. Net will be gone and then so will everything we have ever known.

[wintler2]

You're not making any sense to me, 82_28 - wikileaks is not creating a market for leaks, nor is Assenge a publicity hog. Your 'wikileaks is an attack on the freedom of the internet' stuff is pure Alex Jones and, with no substantiation, is juvenile at best.

[wintler2]

Since the release of the Apache helicopter video, there has been some evidence of low-level attempts to smear Wikileaks. Online stories accuse Assange of spending Wikileaks money on expensive hotels (at a follow-up meeting in Stockholm, he slept on an office floor); of selling data to mainstream media (the subject of money was never mentioned); or charging for media interviews (also never mentioned).

Earlier this year, Wikileaks published a US military document which disclosed a plan to "destroy the centre of gravity" of Wikileaks by attacking its trustworthiness.

Meanwhile, somewhere in Kuwait, Manning has been charged under US miitary law with improperly downloading and releasing information, including the Icelandic cable and the video of Apache helicopters shooting civilians in Baghdad. He faces trial by court martial with the promise of a heavy jail sentence.
Guardian