Who Parked The Moon?

[stickdog99]

Wrong, the 85 foot dish at Honeysuckle Creek was not capable of receiving the Apollo moon viideo, NASA contracted the CSIRO to use the 200 foot Parkes Radio Telescope. The TV signal from Parkes was relayed by the comsat station I was working at, OTC Moree. All three 24/7 video capable dishes used were around the 200 foot diameter size, anything you read to the contrary is just plain wrong. Btw, a movie was made of the Australian Parkes dish contribution....



I stand corrected on type of power supply used for Alsep. However I was correct in surmising there would not be enough power in time to run the transmitters and receivers, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Lunar_Surface_Experiments_Package

The ALSEP system and instruments were controlled by commands from Earth. The stations ran from deployment until they were turned off on 30 September 1977 due primarily to budgetary considerations. Additionally, by 1977 the power packs could not run both the transmitter and any other instrument, and the ALSEP control room was needed for the attempt to reactivate Skylab. ALSEP systems are visible in several images taken by the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter during its orbits over Apollo landing sites.

That's a hell of a lot of plutonium power, and it was supposed to decay in power by less than 10% over a decade. Plutonium-238 has a half-life of 87.7 years. This was just 1977, less than 5 years after the last Apollo mission. So roughly 95% to 97% power (depending on which Apollo Mission) was suddenly not enough power to run anything? I call total bullshit. I bet that a Systems Nuclear Auxiliary Power generator placed on the Moon in 1970 would still have more than 70% of its original power capacity today, and I bet that would be more than enough to power the transmitter.

[BenDhyan]

The LO camera had 200 feet resolution, the wide angle camera on LRO which mapped 98% of the moon was 300 feet so yes, but the narrow angle LRO camera had 19 inch resolution, no comparison, that's how it was possible to see detail of Apollo sites.

[RocketMan]

I gotta say at this point about the conversation generally that BenDhyan I very much appreciate your calm and friendly tone despite the fact that you have yourself been involved in the issue under a somewhat fringe-y type discussion, and I'm sure others do too.

[BenDhyan]

Thanks RocketMan, apt name on this thread btw, I do my best...

[BenDhyan]

I stand corrected on type of power supply used for Alsep. However I was correct in surmising there would not be enough power in time to run the transmitters and receivers, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Lunar_Surface_Experiments_Package

The ALSEP system and instruments were controlled by commands from Earth. The stations ran from deployment until they were turned off on 30 September 1977 due primarily to budgetary considerations. Additionally, by 1977 the power packs could not run both the transmitter and any other instrument, and the ALSEP control room was needed for the attempt to reactivate Skylab. ALSEP systems are visible in several images taken by the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter during its orbits over Apollo landing sites.

That's a hell of a lot of plutonium power, and it was supposed to decay in power by less than 10% over a decade. Plutonium-238 has a half-life of 87.7 years. This was just 1977, less than 5 years after the last Apollo mission. So roughly 95% to 97% power (depending on which Apollo Mission) was suddenly not enough power to run anything? I call total bullshit. I bet that a Systems Nuclear Auxiliary Power generator placed on the Moon in 1970 would still have more than 70% of its original power capacity today, and I bet that would be more than enough to power the transmitter.

Technical equipment have finite design lives, depending on the requirements, they can be made to last for shorter or longer periods....for a price. Here were the requirements....

1965 September 16-23 - .Radioisotope thermoelectric generators for Apollo ALSEP - . Nation: USA. Program: Apollo. Spacecraft Bus: Apollo LM. Spacecraft: Apollo ALSEP. NASA and the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) agreed that AEC would provide radioisotope thermoelectric generators which would power each Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package for an operating period of one year on the lunar surface..

http://www.astronautix.com/a/apolloalsep.html

ALSEP was a collection of geophysical instruments designed to continue to monitor the environment of each Apollo landing site for a period of at least a year after the astronauts had departed. Designed for a life of one year (Apollo 17 was for two), they ended up working for up to 8 years, the experiments permanently shut down by Mission Control on 30 September 1977.

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/HamishALSEP.html

Btw, some interesting reading in that article stickdog.

Over the 8 years of the ALSEP’s lives, around 10,000 moonquakes and 2,000 meteorite impacts were registered by the seismometers.

The seismic information, magnetometer, and heat flow experiments contributed the principal information about the Moon’s interior. It is now believed the Moon’s crust is multi-layered and 50 kilometers thick, with a secondary boundary occurring about 20 kilometers under the surface. The upper mantle has been determined to consist of olivine or olivine-pyroxene matter, and to be quite homogeneous, extending about 500 kilometers down. Below this level the seismic data infers the interior is iron-enriched, although there is insufficient data to determine if the Moon has a molten core.

Moonquakes were discovered to show periodicity and recur at several places in the interior. The time cycle of the deep focus moonquakes follows the tidal cycles so closely it appears likely that tidal forces are a major factor in triggering deep focus moonquakes.

The Moon rings like a bell when struck by a large object.

The first man-made crash directed at the Moon that could be detected by a seismometer occurred after the Apollo 12 astronauts had returned to the CSM and the LM ascent stage was sent smashing into the Moon's surface. The shock waves of this impact surprised the scientists - the Moon vibrated for over 55 minutes!! Also, the kinds of signals recorded by the seismometers were utterly different from any ever received before, starting with small waves, gaining in size to a peak, and then lasting for incredibly long periods of time. A seismic wave took 7 to 8 minutes to reach the peak of impact energy and then gradually decreased in amplitude over a period that lasted almost an hour. It was claimed that even after an hour the minutest reverberations had still not stopped.

When the Apollo 12 LM hit the lunar surface at 6,048 kilometers per hour, 72 kilometers from the landing site, digging an estimated 9 meter wide crater, the results were astonishing. All 3 seismometers in the package recorded the impact, which set up a sequence of reverberations lasting nearly an hour. Nothing like this had ever been measured on Earth.

[Belligerent Savant]

.

When the Apollo 12 LM hit the lunar surface at 6,048 kilometers per hour, 72 kilometers from the landing site, digging an estimated 9 meter wide crater, the results were astonishing. All 3 seismometers in the package recorded the impact, which set up a sequence of reverberations lasting nearly an hour. Nothing like this had ever been measured on Earth.

The photos I posted a couple pages ago* show absolutely NO indication of such a 'crater', and certainly no surface disruption that would suggest the LM landed, or "hit", the lunar surface at "6,048 kilometers per hour". Or are we to understand that the LM's final landing spot was further away from when it first hit the surface? Regardless, there's no noticeable visual indication of "impact" in those photos.

Here's the reported Seismometer reading (sadly, not available in raw/downloadable format, at least not within this site page), taken from the link provided above. Sure looks convincing.



*the photos in my prior posting depicted the Apollo 11 LM, but we can assume the 'impact' would be similar across LMs, with expected variances.

[DrEvil]

Here's the Apollo 12 impact site:



Here's a Google Earth style view of the entire moon, made from the LRO images:
https://quickmap.lroc.asu.edu/?extent=- ... AsjZwLrc0A

And the LROC (Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera) website:
https://www.lroc.asu.edu/

[Belligerent Savant]

.

But why don't the official photos of the Apollo 11 LM from 2 pages back display any such 'disturbance' of the lunar soil [~30 ft. 'crater' or otherwise]? Those photos are far more 'up-close' than anything the LRO is reportedly producing.

[haven't reviewed all of the 60s/70s-era photos yet -- perhaps there's a few out there that showcase soil dispersal resulting from of a vessel landing at 6K+ kilometers per hour]

[DrEvil]

If the crash site is 72 km away it won't show up in those pictures.

[stickdog99]

Here is an image of the Moon taken 53 years ago by the Lunar Orbiter 2.



Link: http://images.spaceref.com/news/LOIRP/2 ... _2.lrg.jpg

http://www.moonviews.com/2012/05/iconic ... eased.html

The amount of detail that the new image reveals is clear. Not only is the resolution much higher, but the dynamic range is greater so as to allow gradations in surface texture, shadows, etc. to be much more clearly pronounced.

LOL at the data transmitted from the Lunar Orbiters having so much better resolution than the data from the 2009 LRO mission. Maybe we could get some octagenerians from Kodak to get us those pictures of the Apollo landing site that NASA promised the LRO would provide?

[stickdog99]

I gotta say at this point about the conversation generally that BenDhyan I very much appreciate your calm and friendly tone despite the fact that you have yourself been involved in the issue under a somewhat fringe-y type discussion, and I'm sure others do too.

Yes, thanks very much for that. I like that this conversation is not treated as a life or death issue here because frankly this "controversy" is just not that important either way. Usually, any discussion of something this "fringey" devolves into useless recriminations unless there is unanimous agreement about its (lack of) merit.

I just find it interesting to speculate on possibilities. If we really did go to Moon successfully 6 times nearly 50 years ago, I can't help but wonder what other superior technological capabilities have been lost throughout human history. Maybe a lot more than we generally estimate?

Yet we still drive the same exact cars running on the same exact gasoline and type on the same QWERTY keyboards.

[Belligerent Savant]

If the crash site is 72 km away it won't show up in those pictures.

So are the LRO photos (from 2009, or thereabouts) of the 'crash' site, or are they photos of the site where the LMs launched from to reportedly dock with the Command Module? I'd think we'd be able to see the numerous ~30ft wide craters from the LRO photos, no? LM-created craters would all presumably be in the area of the landing/crash sites depicted in the LRO photos.

(also how did the LM move 72km from the 'crash' site? Wouldn't that also create some form of soil disturbance that would be evident in the photos from the 60s/70s?)

That photo stickdog shared, from 53 years ago, (besides the obvious differences in resolution compared to the LRO photos taken ~40 yrs later) depicts a seemingly more rocky/jagged landscape than what we've seen from the moon landing photos. Easy to say that from casual observation though. But what else do we have? The 'evidence' provided by NASA are like long-form trolling exercises. They don't need to 'prove' anything, because no one else apparently can go up there and [attempt to] prove them wrong.

Best we can do is speculate like fools. Or submit to the narrative.

(OR, perhaps select elite members of the human race have been partying up there on the moon for years, and we're all simply not invited; we're not part of the VIP club. Only those that have been tapped for entry are provided illumination and passage to the secret bases on the moon, where myriad 'Nation' representatives co-mingle peacefully, laughing in mocking tones at the facile notions of "borders" and "enemy states" back here on primitive Earth.

"...those silly Earthlings. Pass along that moonshine, cap'n, I need to loosen up before embarkin' on my next SpaceWalk..")

[BenDhyan]

You see at the beginning of this video images of the Apollo 12 LM lander descent stage taken by LRO. It was the ascent stage that after rendezvous with the Command Module was then sent to crash on the lunar surface.. It was SOP, all 6 LM ascent stages crashed on the moon.




So when the LM ascent stage launches, it has to match the CM in altitude and velocity in order to rendezvous. When the astronauts transfer to the CM, the LM detaches and is de-accelerated until it crashes, it hits the surface way around the lunar surface from the original landing site. I understand the Apollo 12 landing site was at approx 3 degree North Lat, and 21 degree East Long, and the LM crash site was at 4 degree South Lat, and 22 degree West Long.

[BenDhyan]

Here is an image of the Moon taken 53 years ago by the Lunar Orbiter 2.



Link: http://images.spaceref.com/news/LOIRP/2 ... _2.lrg.jpg

http://www.moonviews.com/2012/05/iconic ... eased.html

The amount of detail that the new image reveals is clear. Not only is the resolution much higher, but the dynamic range is greater so as to allow gradations in surface texture, shadows, etc. to be much more clearly pronounced.

LOL at the data transmitted from the Lunar Orbiters having so much better resolution than the data from the 2009 LRO mission. Maybe we could get some octagenerians from Kodak to get us those pictures of the Apollo landing site that NASA promised the LRO would provide?

Two points, the cameras on the LO were dual and forward looking, unlike LRO that looked down, and secondly the image of the inside of Copernicus Crater you have shown has been touched up. LOIRP stands for Lunar Orbiter Image Recovery Project "By adding modern computer interfaces and data handling techniques, the LOIRP was able to scan and record the data in ways that simply could not have been accomplished in the 1960s. As a result the images that were obtained had a much higher resolution and dynamic range than had been seen to date. Indeed, in many cases, these images often rival or exceed images taken by the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter which is currently surveying the Moon.
Today an iconic image from the initial exploration of the Moon is being re-released showing detail that could not have been seen using technology available at the time the photo was taken. This image features a dramatic view inside the majestic crater Copernicus – a view that left millions in awe when it was first released."

http://www.moonviews.com/2012/05/iconic_lunar_orbiter_image_of_copernicus_re-released.html

[stickdog99]

Here is an image of the Moon taken 53 years ago by the Lunar Orbiter 2.



Link: http://images.spaceref.com/news/LOIRP/2 ... _2.lrg.jpg

http://www.moonviews.com/2012/05/iconic ... eased.html

The amount of detail that the new image reveals is clear. Not only is the resolution much higher, but the dynamic range is greater so as to allow gradations in surface texture, shadows, etc. to be much more clearly pronounced.

LOL at the data transmitted from the Lunar Orbiters having so much better resolution than the data from the 2009 LRO mission. Maybe we could get some octagenerians from Kodak to get us those pictures of the Apollo landing site that NASA promised the LRO would provide?

Two points, the cameras on the LO were dual and forward looking, unlike LRO that looked down, and secondly the image of the inside of Copernicus Crater you have shown has been touched up. LOIRP stands for Lunar Orbiter Image Recovery Project "By adding modern computer interfaces and data handling techniques, the LOIRP was able to scan and record the data in ways that simply could not have been accomplished in the 1960s. As a result the images that were obtained had a much higher resolution and dynamic range than had been seen to date. Indeed, in many cases, these images often rival or exceed images taken by the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter which is currently surveying the Moon.
Today an iconic image from the initial exploration of the Moon is being re-released showing detail that could not have been seen using technology available at the time the photo was taken. This image features a dramatic view inside the majestic crater Copernicus – a view that left millions in awe when it was first released."

http://www.moonviews.com/2012/05/iconic_lunar_orbiter_image_of_copernicus_re-released.html

The raw data is better than LRO's. Far, far better. When you say "touched up", what you mean is that the LOIRP processed the raw returned data with modern computer algorithms that use far more memory and disk than existed in the 1960s.