Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

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Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:35 am

.

http://mobile.latimes.com/wap/news/text ... tle=Nation

Not really surprising, and explains much with regards to what passes for consensus thought [and also allows for easier thought control by those with the means to do so]. This excerpt in particular can be generally applied not only when it pertains to religion, but politics/science as well:

The Rev. Adam Hamilton, a Methodist minister from Leawood, Kan., and the author of "When Christians Get it Wrong," said the survey's results may reflect a reluctance by many people to dig deeply into their own beliefs and especially into those of others.

"I think that what happens for many Christians is, they accept their particular faith, they accept it to be true and they stop examining it. Consequently, because it's already accepted to be true, they don't examine other people's faiths. … That, I think, is not healthy for a person of any faith," he said.


Full Article:

Atheists, agnostics most knowledgeable about religion, survey says

By Mitchell Landsberg, Los Angeles Times
Story posted 2010.09.27 at 09:07 PM PDT

If you want to know about God, you might want to talk to an atheist.

Heresy? Perhaps. But a survey that measured Americans' knowledge of religion found that atheists and agnostics knew more, on average, than followers of most major faiths. In fact, the gaps in knowledge among some of the faithful may give new meaning to the term "blind faith."

A majority of Protestants, for instance, couldn't identify Martin Luther as the driving force behind the Protestant Reformation, according to the survey, released Tuesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. Four in 10 Catholics misunderstood the meaning of their church's central ritual, incorrectly saying that the bread and wine used in Holy Communion are intended to merely symbolize the body and blood of Christ, not actually become them.

Atheists and agnostics — those who believe there is no God or who aren't sure — were more likely to answer the survey's questions correctly. Jews and Mormons ranked just below them in the survey's measurement of religious knowledge — so close as to be statistically tied.

So why would an atheist know more about religion than a Christian?

American atheists and agnostics tend to be people who grew up in a religious tradition and consciously gave it up, often after a great deal of reflection and study, said Alan Cooperman, associate director for research at the Pew Forum.

"These are people who thought a lot about religion," he said. "They're not indifferent. They care about it."

Atheists and agnostics also tend to be relatively well educated, and the survey found, not surprisingly, that the most knowledgeable people were also the best educated. However, it said that atheists and agnostics also outperformed believers who had a similar level of education.

The groups at the top of the U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey were followed, in order, by white evangelical Protestants, white Catholics, white mainline Protestants, people who were unaffiliated with any faith (but not atheist or agnostic), black Protestants and Latino Catholics.

Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists were included in the survey, but their numbers were too small to be broken out as statistically significant groups.

Stephen Prothero, a professor of religion at Boston University and author of "Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know — And Doesn't," served as an advisor on the survey. "I think in general the survey confirms what I argued in the book, which is that we know almost nothing about our own religions and even less about the religions of other people," he said.

He said he found it significant that Mormons, who are not considered Christians by many fundamentalists, showed greater knowledge of the Bible than evangelical Christians.

The Rev. Adam Hamilton, a Methodist minister from Leawood, Kan., and the author of "When Christians Get it Wrong," said the survey's results may reflect a reluctance by many people to dig deeply into their own beliefs and especially into those of others.

"I think that what happens for many Christians is, they accept their particular faith, they accept it to be true and they stop examining it. Consequently, because it's already accepted to be true, they don't examine other people's faiths. … That, I think, is not healthy for a person of any faith," he said.

The Pew survey was not without its bright spots for the devout. Eight in 10 people surveyed knew that Mother Teresa was Catholic. Seven in 10 knew that, according to the Bible, Moses led the exodus from Egypt and that Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

The question that elicited the most correct responses concerned whether public school teachers are allowed to lead their classes in prayer. Eighty-nine percent of the respondents correctly said no. However, 67% also said that such teachers are not permitted to read from the Bible as an example of literature, something the law clearly allows.

For comparison purposes, the survey also asked some questions about general knowledge, which yielded the scariest finding: 4% of Americans believe that Stephen King, not Herman Melville, wrote "Moby Dick."
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:05 am

Happens to me all the time. I am very open with Christians I know in recent years and I have scriptural reasons when I tell them why I'm not a Christian. I find most of them to be really respectful, but a minority will definitely get angry, and interestingly, none of their responses are Scriptural when they start disputing me. There's a lot of intelligent Xtians I know who are well aware of all the arguments against their Faith and comfortable with the irrational foundations of their Faith. (Apparently, that's kinda what faith is, but science has not yet rendered a verdict either way.)

On a very related note, I only engage with Christians who engage with me and I find confrontational Athiests distasteful. There's no reason to attack Christians, they're 0% more or less deluded than the rest of us. I worship a fucking elephant, you know? Being able to state your case calmly is critical for style points, and when your deeds are reviewed upon entrance to the Afterlife, brothers and sisters, your style points are all that will save you.
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby Luther Blissett » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:10 am

I would chalk this more up to the average atheist or agnostic arriving at that stance due to their increased mental capacity - not becoming more knowledgeable about the subject of religion through careful examination. I'm sure atheists and agnostics would be found to be more knowledgeable about most subjects if polled in a similar way.

A reason to attack Christians (not something I've ever been comfortable enough to do) is because their belief is abusive - to themselves, their own minds, society, their children, etc. It's a lie told to maintain control, when secular moralists have much more power because they're willing to take responsibility.
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby Pele'sDaughter » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:21 am

This seem rather obvious though. Of course agnostics and atheists wouldn't be such if they hadn't already broken their programming, having had the guts to examine their beliefs and toss what doesn't make sense. Many so-called believers are of the cya variety doing the minimum they think will spare them from damnation. The truly devout are too full of fear to look at their beliefs because it might piss off their deity. I would bet the majority of even the devout haven't read the book much less studied it verse by verse because that isn't required for salvation. Opiate of the masses, indeed.
Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
---Immanuel Kant
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:35 am

Wombaticus Rex wrote:
On a very related note, I only engage with Christians who engage with me and I find confrontational Athiests distasteful. There's no reason to attack Christians, they're 0% more or less deluded than the rest of us. I worship a fucking elephant, you know? Being able to state your case calmly is critical for style points, and when your deeds are reviewed upon entrance to the Afterlife, brothers and sisters, your style points are all that will save you.


Agreed. This is partially the reason I loathe the likes of more well-known self-described Atheists such as C Hutchins and his lesser associate, B Maher: they know no more than most with any level of certainty, yet apply the same self-righteous arrogance in their proclamations as those they attempt to dismiss...
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby The Consul » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:53 am

If you do not need to know the bible to believe "it's all in the bible" then you do not need to know the constitution to "defend" it. Prophecy has taken the place of what religion mostly was as a social and civic spiritual enterprise. End time be-bop is sexier than St. Alphonso's Pancake Breakfast, and with it comes the promise of personal riches and eternal life while you watch all those gays, atheists, liberals, muslims and jews slaughter each other and beg for a death that never comes from your perch up in the sun with Jesus and all your Rapture pals.

If anyone holds out any hope at all for the survival of democracy, then Xtianity must be attacked, at least hard enough to drive it far enough out of politics that it no longer credibly threatens to establish a totalitarian theocratic state in which questioning capitalism would be the same as peeing on the cross.
" Morals is the butter for those who have no bread."
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:18 am

The Consul wrote:
If anyone holds out any hope at all for the survival of democracy, then Xtianity must be attacked, at least hard enough to drive it far enough out of politics that it no longer credibly threatens to establish a totalitarian theocratic state in which questioning capitalism would be the same as peeing on the cross.


Right, but it's not the followers that need be "attacked", it's those that are manipulating/conditioning the 'system', and by extension the masses within said system, to foster such a political climate to begin with, for a variety of reasons.

Religion and Politics are currently mingling [and as such, creating various divisions among the citizenry] for a variety of reasons, and at the highest levels it has little/nothing to do with the merits of Christianity, or whatever politics are currently in place for that matter.

So we can attack Christianity all we want, but to paraphrase/quote Thoreau, "There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."

Good luck finding the root, however...
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby Montag » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:12 pm

Apocrypha anyone? These religions/mass mind control operations, have a long history of the hierarchies controlling the doctrine of the faith. A Christian, though, of course, is someone who follows Jesus Christ. But religions have acted as revionist historians on him.

p.s. You'd probably also find the least patriotic Americans, have the most knowledge of U.S. history.
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby The Consul » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:25 pm

Belligerent Savant wrote:

Right, but it's not the followers that need be "attacked", it's those that are manipulating/conditioning the 'system', and by extension the masses within said system, to foster such a political climate to begin with, for a variety of reasons.

Religion and Politics are currently mingling [and as such, creating various divisions among the citizenry] for a variety of reasons, and at the highest levels it has little/nothing to do with the merits of Christianity, or whatever politics are currently in place for that matter....


I know some very rational, wonderful, competent and intelligent people who believe that the world was created in six days. I only "attack" when they try to save me or suggest something that requires a response. Nothing I would say or do would ever change their minds. They could catch their preachers screwing their cats and blowing a millio in tithes on gay hookers and they would just say, well, we're all sinners.

It is a peculiar kind of insanity and you don't have to be stupid to be crazy.
" Morals is the butter for those who have no bread."
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:39 pm

The Consul wrote:
I know some very rational, wonderful, competent and intelligent people who believe that the world was created in six days.



Indeed... though who are we to say definitively that they are wrong? Time is ultimately illusory anyway, and relative. A being on a planet several million light years away looking through a telescope that could somehow see details of the surface of the earth would be looking at a snaphot of the earth from millions of years years ago [perhaps catch a brontosaurus chewing on some vegetation].
Perhaps 1 day = 1 Billion years.

Or maybe what you experience as a day can be experienced differently be another person or being that interprets reality within an alternative state of consciousness [as we understand it]...

I'm being silly/facetious of course, but in the end, what do we know, really, other than what our senses tell us [and the brain interprets for us]? Is it possible to measure anything objectively without the brain's influence?
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:52 pm

.

No surprise to me. When you're surrounded by this stuff and decide to go against it (and the mere act of not accepting it is already considered a high provocation among many), then you have an incentive to learn about it. I'm the only person I know in person who has read the Bible twice cover to cover (allowing that I skimmed over the proverbs and psalms). Though I've forgotten most of it again.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby Luther Blissett » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:12 pm

Belligerent Savant wrote:
The Consul wrote:
I know some very rational, wonderful, competent and intelligent people who believe that the world was created in six days.



Indeed... though who are we to say definitively that they are wrong? Time is ultimately illusory anyway, and relative. A being on a planet several million light years away looking through a telescope that could somehow see details of the surface of the earth would be looking at a snaphot of the earth from millions of years years ago [perhaps catch a brontosaurus chewing on some vegetation].
Perhaps 1 day = 1 Billion years.


Said being could take ten steps forward and look millennia into that planet's future, and twenty steps back and look millennia into that planet's past (depending on distance).
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:16 pm

Luther Blissett wrote:
Belligerent Savant wrote:
The Consul wrote:
I know some very rational, wonderful, competent and intelligent people who believe that the world was created in six days.



Indeed... though who are we to say definitively that they are wrong? Time is ultimately illusory anyway, and relative. A being on a planet several million light years away looking through a telescope that could somehow see details of the surface of the earth would be looking at a snaphot of the earth from millions of years years ago [perhaps catch a brontosaurus chewing on some vegetation].
Perhaps 1 day = 1 Billion years.


Said being could take ten steps forward and look millennia into that planet's future, and twenty steps back and look millennia into that planet's past (depending on distance).


Cool, huh?
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:25 pm

JackRiddler wrote:.

No surprise to me. When you're surrounded by this stuff and decide to go against it (and the mere act of not accepting it is already considered a high provocation among many), then you have an incentive to learn about it. I'm the only person I know in person who has read the Bible twice cover to cover (allowing that I skimmed over the proverbs and psalms). Though I've forgotten most of it again.


Indeed - I've forgotten most of it myself, though a few passages seem to pop in my head from time to time...

Having attended Catholic elementary and [all-boy] Catholic High School, I was well indoctrinated as a younger lad, though it was my high school religion teacher that first opened me up to other non-Christian religions, alternative theological theories, etc.. it is at that point that I began re-reading the Christian Bible, then moved on to other religious texts.. I was always a curious fellow.

But going back to the OP, there are a number of factors that may contribute to the relative ignorance of many "believers", but FEAR seems to be at the root. FEAR to challenge one's own beliefs, to question the nature of one's own understanding of reality.. they prefer the comfort of ignorance, of what they understand as the 'norm'.

As indicated in my initial post, it is this same fear that drives many of the accepted political and scientific views as well... but I preach to the choir here..
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Re: Agnostics/Atheists, more knowledgable than adherants...

Postby Simulist » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:49 pm

Belligerent Savant wrote:But going back to the OP, there are a number of factors that may contribute to the relative ignorance of many "believers", but FEAR seems to be at the root. FEAR to challenge one's own beliefs, to question the nature of one's own understanding of reality...

I think you've named the very important — and very nasty — symbiosis which exists between "Fear" and "Ignorance."

Fear keeps people in ignorance and ignorance keeps people in fear.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
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