Another Beheading

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Re: Another Beheading

Postby slomo » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:41 pm

Simulist wrote:
slomo wrote:
"I looked at these chickens lying dead in the pot and a voice told me it was a sacrifice. It was black magic," he said.

Could someone please explain to me why chickens lying dead in a curandero's pot is "black magic", while the chicken trussed up and stuffed with carrots and onions in my roasting pan is just "dinner"?

'Cause the guy's nuts.

Indeed.

But every so often you hear the media work people up about Santeria and dead chickens, when you need only go to the supermarket to find row after row of dead chickens who were treated far more "Satanically" than any barnyard chicken that meets their maker in a curandero's ritual.
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby Twyla LaSarc » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:17 am

Masonic ceremonial blades are generally quite dull. They are more ornamental than anything. If they were shorter they'd be fancy letter-openers. Perhaps you could stab someone if you ran at them full speed (if the sword didn't break or bend), but you certainly couldn't carve a head off with one.

I'm betting on the martial arts sword.

8bitagent wrote:It's interesting...Masonry since a long time has been the target of endless smears, paranoia, hate. Hitler used them in his conspiracy theory with the Jews, and murdered 30,000+ Masonic brothers.
One of the largest political parties in America at one time had been the "Anti Masonic Party", where they claimed Freemasonry was a conduit for theistic Satanism.

...however, there still seemed to be something always a bit unsettling about what may lie at the heart of Freemasonry, as can be glimpsed with black lodges like Italy's P2


The allure of a lodge's secrecy has certainly spawned it's share of plotters and cabals, and it could never be claimed that all masons and masonry are benign, but most masons in my experience (including their various co-ed spin-offs) are there for the more mundane social aspects. Most of those have as much interest in and understanding of the symbolism as my cat. I've met a few ceremonialists who joined to better understand the symbolic underpinnings, but they are very few in number.
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:24 pm

The Catholics, it should be noted, are the exact reason why the Freemasons and the Perfectibilists were "secret societies" in the first place: because of vulgarians like Tertullian, Torquemada, or Michael Hoffman. Men who could look at Sacred geometry and basic science, the very language of nature, and see only Satanic evil. Men who would torture and murder for the glory of God's Love. It's pathetic. And it's catching.


The sick joke, of course, is the double-edged sword of secrecy. Plenty of conspiracies have been created my men of pure heart and honest intention, who woke up years later to realize there was a whole other circus going on under their tent. Wheels within wheels, right? I would imagine Masonry suffers from similar afflictions. (The FBI is another great example of this principle at work, although arguably they started off as a corrupted Mafia-military intel hybrid to begin with.)

If Masons are only earnest esoteric seekers rooted in humble and normal lives, then their veil of secrecy is sadly outdated and they're missing out on some great conversations. However, based on my experiences, I agree with Twlya's point: "Most of those have as much interest in and understanding of the symbolism as my cat." There is a baser goal and it's (transparently) a mix of professional standing and personal power.

I've always been primarily impressed with how utterly the stories of those who have confided in me over the years have differed in their take on The Truth. In most circumstances, I would be willing to accept that they were lying to me outright for reasons I can only guess at; perhaps it's an imperative to sow contradictory horse shit @ all turns in certain lodges. I would certainly make it an imperative in my lodge.

At the end of days, though, it doesn't matter at all what the content of the secrets really is: the fact they see the need to hold them at all is damning enough in 2010's eyes.
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby Twyla LaSarc » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:24 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:
The Catholics, it should be noted, are the exact reason why the Freemasons and the Perfectibilists were "secret societies" in the first place: because of vulgarians like Tertullian, Torquemada, or Michael Hoffman. Men who could look at Sacred geometry and basic science, the very language of nature, and see only Satanic evil. Men who would torture and murder for the glory of God's Love. It's pathetic. And it's catching.


The sick joke, of course, is the double-edged sword of secrecy. Plenty of conspiracies have been created my men of pure heart and honest intention, who woke up years later to realize there was a whole other circus going on under their tent. Wheels within wheels, right? I would imagine Masonry suffers from similar afflictions. (The FBI is another great example of this principle at work, although arguably they started off as a corrupted Mafia-military intel hybrid to begin with.)

If Masons are only earnest esoteric seekers rooted in humble and normal lives, then their veil of secrecy is sadly outdated and they're missing out on some great conversations. However, based on my experiences, I agree with Twlya's point: "Most of those have as much interest in and understanding of the symbolism as my cat." There is a baser goal and it's (transparently) a mix of professional standing and personal power.

...

At the end of days, though, it doesn't matter at all what the content of the secrets really is: the fact they see the need to hold them at all is damning enough in 2010's eyes.


Great summation.

I was born into an active masonic family and in my teen years I participated in a number of groups, mainly girl's groups like Rainbow Girls, and I was also once a member of Eastern Star, etc. Haven't been in a masonic lodge for years ...although I have participated in informal ceremonialist groups and been a guest at OTO and GD lodges since.

I was reading stuff about magic as a kid so when I first set foot in a lodge, I realized right away what could potentially go on. It was a little disconcerting to realize the adults around me had absolutely no clue.

As masonic brats we often could run around the place unattended while our parents were at practices, etc. I would read rituals on the sly and see rooms set up for ceremonies. Having read plenty about the inquisition, I understood that at one time these symbols had to remain hidden, but I began, even then, to question the secrecy and exclusivity that made it unavailiable to others in the present.

Yes, secrecy is a double edged sword. I am glad for the internet and forums such as these. There is no need for secrecy any longer, and at a certain point the obsessive need for secrecy becomes either a liability or an indicator of a potentially sinister process.

I think that has been one of my most frustrating points in conversation with the otherwise quite sane ceremonialists that I have discussed this with (Sam Webster, whom I DO respect for his writings on buddhist influence on modern magic, being the most prominent among a few less-published others...I am a rarity in the small, incestuous ceremonialist world; someone who actually came from a masonic background, a fact that makes me question the knee-jerk ZOMG 'all masons are magicians' tirades of the CT'ers). We would always reach this point in conversation where I would question the secrecy and the lack of female involvement (mainstream masonry and it's works somehow 'feminist' or 'goddess worshipping'?, my ass) and I would get to a stone wall. They liked the male only enviroment, the boy's club and the secrets.

As long as the appeal to a secret treehouse hide-out with no girls allowed and mucho connections to power exists, I fear masonry will continue in this rather unproductive and possibly destructive path. Personally, I am foursquare for openness and think that anyone who desires to explore that trove of preserved western symbolism and esotericism should have access divorced from power politics that have historically muddied the waters and polluted the fonts of whatever western gnosis survived the inquisitors.
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby professorpan » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:35 pm

Twyla LaSarc wrote:The allure of a lodge's secrecy has certainly spawned it's share of plotters and cabals, and it could never be claimed that all masons and masonry are benign, but most masons in my experience (including their various co-ed spin-offs) are there for the more mundane social aspects. Most of those have as much interest in and understanding of the symbolism as my cat. I've met a few ceremonialists who joined to better understand the symbolic underpinnings, but they are very few in number.


Agreed. For what it's worth, most of the younger (read: under 60) masons in my lodge are more interested in the esoteric and symbolic aspects of the Craft. That's what drew them to it. Most of the older guys, with a few exceptions, seem to be in it for the sandwiches. Men who joined before the 1960s were often attracted by the networking possibilities and the fraternizing, but since membership has declined dramatically in the past decades, it no longer has that appeal.

And while Masonry has had its fair share of scandals, what organization with such a long history hasn't? P2 is fascinating, but from what I can gather, was more of a "renegade" lodge taken over by a charismatic criminal and is in no way representative of the organization as a whole, which is more decentralized and fractious than most non-masons realize.

As far as secrecy goes, the Internet put an end to all of that. All of the rituals and teachings are widely available to anyone who wants to find them.

Freemasonry's real value lies in its function as a template of sorts—those interested in ritual, symbolism, alternative history, and other esoteric pursuits can find endless material for study, while those who just want to socialize can ignore it all and just show up for the lunches. I think that's why it has persisted for so long—its value is dependent upon what every person brings to it.

Jay Kinney's "The Masonic Myth" is a very solid book for anyone interested in the subject.
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby professorpan » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:49 pm

Twyla LaSarc wrote:As long as the appeal to a secret treehouse hide-out with no girls allowed and mucho connections to power exists, I fear masonry will continue in this rather unproductive and possibly destructive path. Personally, I am foursquare for openness and think that anyone who desires to explore that trove of preserved western symbolism and esotericism should have access divorced from power politics that have historically muddied the waters and polluted the fonts of whatever western gnosis survived the inquisitors.


The vestiges of racism are all too apparent as well, with some southern states refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of Prince Hall masons (African Americans). The widespread racial segregation in US lodges is another appalling anachronism. It will take an influx of progressive members to liberalize and open up the lodges and save them from their downward path to irrelevance and decrepitude.
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby professorpan » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:07 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:At the end of days, though, it doesn't matter at all what the content of the secrets really is: the fact they see the need to hold them at all is damning enough in 2010's eyes.


I'm not so certain about that. Secrecy is not inherently bad, nor is complete openness always good. Mystery religions from antiquity have offered their initiates a taste of the "greater mysteries" as the price of admission. The universe is full of secrets, which is why there are "seekers," and a process of structured revelation has always been a part of mystery schools and initiatory traditions. The revelation of secrets—the journey from light to darkness—is a metaphor for life itself.

And once people see the secrets they are likely to shrug. "So that's what it's all about? Some silly ritual play-acting and archaic mumbo jumbo?" Because when it's all boiled down, that's what they are. Unless you approach that play-acting with an esoteric understanding, in which case what seems silly to one person can be deeply meaningful to another.
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby 82_28 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:53 pm

I'm not so certain about that. Secrecy is not inherently bad, nor is complete openness always good.


No and no. Perhaps in a personal setting when you don't want your kid to know where the whiskey is and opensource software, GPL, is really the only ethical way to distribute and understand freely copied data. Just two "for instances". A secret is something you keep to yourself as in a diary, not a "conspiracy" among others which constitute a body which mandates a fake ass hierarchy until you start getting up into the 20s and "they" begin revealing more as you go.
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby professorpan » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:12 pm

82_28 wrote:
I'm not so certain about that. Secrecy is not inherently bad, nor is complete openness always good.


No and no. Perhaps in a personal setting when you don't want your kid to know where the whiskey is and opensource software, GPL, is really the only ethical way to distribute and understand freely copied data. Just two "for instances". A secret is something you keep to yourself as in a diary, not a "conspiracy" among others which constitute a body which mandates a fake ass hierarchy until you start getting up into the 20s and "they" begin revealing more as you go.


I disagree. Especially if the secrets are not anything harmful, but are just metaphysical teachings. It seems very undemocratic to insist that groups of people shouldn't be able to keep secrets, providing they're not doing anything unlawful.
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby 82_28 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:37 pm

professorpan wrote:I disagree. Especially if the secrets are not anything harmful, but are just metaphysical teachings. It seems very undemocratic to insist that groups of people shouldn't be able to keep secrets, providing they're not doing anything unlawful.


Well, how is one to ever know if it is indeed a secret?
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby professorpan » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:44 pm

82_28 wrote:
professorpan wrote:I disagree. Especially if the secrets are not anything harmful, but are just metaphysical teachings. It seems very undemocratic to insist that groups of people shouldn't be able to keep secrets, providing they're not doing anything unlawful.


Well, how is one to ever know if it is indeed a secret?


What I do in my home is a secret from my neighbor. Should I just throw open my doors to everyone in the neighborhood to prove I'm not doing anything unlawful? Why should a private group be prohibited from having secrets to prove it isn't doing anything unlawful?
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:53 pm

Professor, you don't have to defend your secrecy to me. I was only saying, "keeping secrets looks suspicious." Let me know if there's anything you can argue with in that setence.

Although Masonry has a rich history of non-harmless secrets, as Pan observed, that's the upper echelon lodges at work, taking advantage of the cover being offered by countless thousands of earnest lodges like his own. P2 would have happened with or without Freemasonry.
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby 82_28 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:24 pm

professorpan wrote:
82_28 wrote:
professorpan wrote:I disagree. Especially if the secrets are not anything harmful, but are just metaphysical teachings. It seems very undemocratic to insist that groups of people shouldn't be able to keep secrets, providing they're not doing anything unlawful.


Well, how is one to ever know if it is indeed a secret?


What I do in my home is a secret from my neighbor. Should I just throw open my doors to everyone in the neighborhood to prove I'm not doing anything unlawful? Why should a private group be prohibited from having secrets to prove it isn't doing anything unlawful?


I do. I haven't locked my door in years and years. They don't, but my neighbors are free to come and go from my place, anything I have they are free to take, use, etc. My floor around my computer right now is covered in leaves, cats come and go and nothing is locked. I don't even heat where I live. Is it for everybody? I suppose not. But I have no problem with being honest before secret. Sure, I might pick my nose, but it's getting to the point where I don't even care if anybody sees me do that anymore. Essentially, I abhor secrecy and hierarchy -- nothing good has ever come of it. I will keep dear friends' secrets, such as say "82_28, I have an STD, don't tell anybody!"

This is the way. Not secret cabals of feigned innocence and pancake feeds.

This is why I have found I am having such a hard time writing a resume when I have someone read over it. They say, "you're giving too much information about yourself" or some such. Yet, I'm the one who refuses to touch facebook with your ten foot pole.
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby 82_28 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:28 pm

This is the way. Not secret cabals of feigned innocence and pancake feeds.


However, I should add, that this is my way and nothing is meant disparaging towards you here PP.

Just don't blame me (which, I'm not saying you're 'blaming me' for shit at all -- just in general) when and if I see a sinister connotation and seek to finger it out on my own. I just ain't ever joining shit. I'm a Denver Broncos fan and that's about as far as it goes. . .
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Re: Another Beheading

Postby justdrew » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:30 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Professor, you don't have to defend your secrecy to me. I was only saying, "keeping secrets looks suspicious." Let me know if there's anything you can argue with in that setence.

Although Masonry has a rich history of non-harmless secrets, as Pan observed, that's the upper echelon lodges at work, taking advantage of the cover being offered by countless thousands of earnest lodges like his own. P2 would have happened with or without Freemasonry.


Anyway, they seem to do a piss-poor job of keeping secrets. It seems like most of them are on the web or available in books.

Rather than call it keeping secrets, how about thinking in terms of privacy?

The main secret people have wanted from freemasonry over the years has been membership lists. So that they could then be persecuted by demagogues of the so-called christian variety.
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