Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

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Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby wallflower » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:05 am

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/01/18/seymour_hersh_unleashed

He then alleged that Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who headed JSOC before briefly becoming the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, and his successor, Vice Adm. William McRaven, as well as many within JSOC, "are all members of, or at least supporters of, Knights of Malta."

"Many of them are members of Opus Dei. They do see what they're doing -- and this is not an atypical attitude among some military -- it's a crusade, literally. They seem themselves as the protectors of the Christians. They're protecting them from the Muslims [as in] the 13th century. And this is their function."

"They have little insignias, they coins they pass among each other, which are crusader coins," he continued. "They have insignia that reflect the whole notion that this is a culture war."
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby hava1 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:48 am

Wow...

I was thinking about it apropos the grand hatred (here and elsewhere) to the evangelical movement, that while they are nuts and detestible the hatred is also fed by other christian factions which, IMHO, are MUCH worse, as they act in the dark and not in broad daylight and are much more insidious.

Opus Dei seems like the equivalent of taliban if not worse.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby 8bitagent » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:34 am

I usually only hear about the "knights of malta" and "opus dei" within the margins of conspiracy/birch type writings(usually alleging how the "Jesuits, Vatican and the black Pope control the world".
Very curious to hear a long time respected journalist open that carton of worms. But it makes sense. I recall reading about top level Republicans belonging to some secret Christian sect.

The irony here, is that the elite that these military commanders serve are in financial business with the VERY Arab and Muslim elites who finance the Taliban, al Qaeda and insurgent militias.
These globalists in the Arab kingdom will host Bush and company at their falcon camps one week, and then have over Osama bin Laden, Zawahiri and others the next. In fact it seems a lot of the elite
have moved up shop to Dubai, that technopolis dreamland built on slavery and child jockeys...the very financial heartbeat of 9/11 and the post BCCI globalists.

The "anti Muslim" hate seems hilarious given how Bush and now Obama have been financing Pakistan to the tune of tens of billions, knowing full well the S-wing of Pakistani Intelligence protects and placates to al Qaeda and the Taliban. Of course, religious fanatics all deserve eachother, be they Islamists or Christian nutjobs. If only they knew they both were serving the same dark agenda.

By golly, Sy Hersh still has it...and the older he gets, it seems the more the gloves come off. (For those waiting for Sy to "blow the lid off 9/11" though, they can keep waiting)
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby hava1 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:48 am

Opus Dei is far from a "marginal estoric sect" as depicted in fiction. it is a vibrant, very powerful and popular movement in Italy, growing fast and recruiting many to join religious, social and political activities and worldwide missions as well.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby yathrib » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:12 pm

8bitagent wrote:
By golly, Sy Hersh still has it...and the older he gets, it seems the more the gloves come off. (For those waiting for Sy to "blow the lid off 9/11" though, they can keep waiting)

Speaking of which, how's that imminent invasion of Iran coming along? Any day now? Seriously, it seems like Hersch is the liberal establishment version of Alex Jones, saying many things that are quite interesting--and would make quite a bit of sense of the world we see around us--did they not turn out not to be quite true.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:28 pm

No worries, Knights of Malta, the article deals with Hersh's obvious indiscretion with a copy and paste job from page one, paragraph one of the How to Smear Accusers playbook...

In a speech billed as a discussion of the Bush and Obama eras, New Yorker journalist Seymour Hersh delivered a rambling, conspiracy-laden diatribe here Monday expressing his disappointment with President Barack Obama and his dissatisfaction with the direction of U.S. foreign policy.

"Just when we needed an angry black man," he began, his arm perched jauntily on the podium, "we didn't get one."

It quickly went downhill from there.


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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby wallflower » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:09 pm

One of the things that keeps me from posting here is that I'm not very rigorous. I like rigorous thinking, just don't have it in me to do much rigorous study.

I linked to the FP post not only because I thought Seymour Hersh's performance interesting, but also because FP editor Blake Houndshell's reaction to it seemed interesting too.

Conspiracy theories are really theories about networks. I'm in my fifties and an American so I've been rather conditioned to think of conspiracy theories as bunk. Also as old as I am I'm clearly not a digital native. The nice thing about that latter bit is that it keeps the Internet strange for me. One thing the advent of the Internet has done for me is to draw attention to the importance of networks and thus redeeming the importance of theories about networks but not necessarily the importance of any particular conspiracy theories. This Web site reminds to be rigorous about our intuitions.

I don't know much of anything about either the Knights of Malta nor Opus Dei. I have met people involved in Opus Dei who are closely associated with people in power. I don't know how to assess how influential that network is, but plainly the network called Opus Dei does exist.

As a kid growing up in South Carolina the radio featured H.L. Hunt Life Line. To some extent ones politics are a matter of temperament and as far as that takes us I seem temperamentally disposed towards bleeding heart liberal. So I found Hunt's radio broadcasts very disturbing as a young boy.

I never paid attention to JFK assassination theories, but I know that Hunt features prominently in many of them. Likewise I didn't pay much attention to the Hunt brothers cornering the silver market during the Carter administration, but did read the news about it.

Molly Ivins quipped after dinner at the Midland Petroleum Club: "Goddamn, those are nice people. I'm sure glad they're not running the world." Molly Ivins was a lot more generous than I am. I never ate dinner at Midland Petroleum Club, but have been around folks who would fit right in there. I've never felt comfortable around those folks. As a boy racist talk scared the daylights out of me. I was a nice Anglo kid, but somehow felt that folks who hated people of color so, must really hate me. I thought them dangerous. I was born in the South but my parents were both New Englanders and so I was always going to be a Yankee in the eyes of my peers. I didn't have a real picture of the networks because as Yankees we were excluded at least on some levels. Being excluded made clubs and societies visible to me. I don't think my parents payed any attention to that aspect of living in the South, but I did.

Blake Hounshell is younger than I, probably a lot smarter and better educated too. His reaction to Seymour Hersh was essentially that Hersh has fallen off the deep end; he's nuts. His reaction reminds me of my parents all those years ago. They were perfectly content with a consensus reality that paid little notice of the networks that had men dressing up in special clothes and taking on peculiar titles. They thought it was all in fun and not important. Hounshell, it seems to me ought to be a bit more skeptical of a consensus reality that doesn't pay heed to the networks. I think Hounshell must think he knows what the important networks are, but it surprises me he takes the ritual networks so lightly.

I have seen that Bunker Hunt is a member of Order of Malta. I don't know the networks, but I know some of you here do. And I'm curious to hear more.

It seems that Jeff Sharlet isn't well regarded by some here. I'm not sure I understand the misgivings about him. His writing about The Family has helped me to put some of the pieces from my upbringing together. I participated in religious activities as a kid enough to see there was a network, but my participation not long enough to really become too aware of the network. Being brought up in what was once a very establishment Episcopal denomination, the fundamentalism I was exposed to seemed a whole different ball game. So Sharlett's piece Jesus Killed Mohammad: The Crusade for a Christian Military http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488 rather reminded me of the puzzle I was trying to tease out as a boy.

On one hand there was a conventional reality, a conventional theory of networks, which mainstream denominations were a part. On the other hand I knew there was another reality even if I didn't know what it was. There was always weird sorts of data like noticing that there were costumes in friend's parents cars and that questions about what they were about weren't going to get any answers. My parents just disregarded this stuff thinking it so unimportant not to be worth thinking about. Hounshell's reaction to Seymour Hersh reminded me of my folks. But fast forward 40 years or so and Sharlett's piece on religion in the military reports that mainstream religion has been disappeared:

Starting in 1987, however, Protestant denominations were lumped together simply as “Protestant”; moreover, the Pentagon began accrediting hundreds of evangelical and Pentecostal “endorsing agencies,” allowing graduates of fundamentalist Bible colleges—which often train clergy to view those from other faiths as enemies of Christ—to fill up nearly the entire allotment for Protestant chaplains. Today, more than two thirds of the military’s 2,900 active-duty chaplains are affiliated with evangelical or Pentecostal denominations. “In my experience,” Morton says, “eighty percent of the Protestant chaplaincy self-identifies as conservative and/or evangelical.”


My not-very rigorous intuition tells me that Hersh is sometimes too gullible. I feel more comfortable with gullibility, if indeed Hersh falls into that trap, than I do with Hounshell with what appears to me to be willful ignorance.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby yathrib » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:31 pm

That's an interesting point. The religious right always existed in an inchoate way, but the preachers and churchmen one saw on television were usually liberal or mainline, and supported moderate or even liberal/leftist politics. Now mainline churchmen have almost zero influence on the culture at large. The last liberal/mainline churchman I saw on television (not counting PBS, and even then) was Bishop Spong, and he was only there so that Jerry Falwell could be given the last word. At the same time, liberals and leftists are becoming identified with militant atheists/secularists, guaranteeing that 90% of the American populace will shut them out on that basis alone. And even the subtext of mainstream media seems to be a softcore form of evangelicalism. Look at all the miracle mongering on the morning "news" shows, for example. Thus the American populace that is not susceptible to outright fundamentalism is rendered toothless in the face of it.

Many try to imply that the mainline religious tradition in America fell in the natural course of things as a result of its own irrelevance. I say it was pushed. But I would say that, wouldn't I.

Wallflower: What do you mean by "costumes?"

wallflower wrote:
On one hand there was a conventional reality, a conventional theory of networks, which mainstream denominations were a part. On the other hand I knew there was another reality even if I didn't know what it was. There was always weird sorts of data like noticing that there were costumes in friend's parents cars and that questions about what they were about weren't going to get any answers. My parents just disregarded this stuff thinking it so unimportant not to be worth thinking about. Hounshell's reaction to Seymour Hersh reminded me of my folks. But fast forward 40 years or so and Sharlett's piece on religion in the military reports that mainstream religion has been disappeared:
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby wallflower » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:43 pm

>What do I mean by costumes?< I think what I was thinking of had to do with Masons. My father wasn't a Mason and I was never a candidate, so I'm vague.

Part of my experience was being a Yankee in the South, a duck out of water so to speak. I was referring to riding in friends cars where there were obscure things that I really couldn't inquire about; like I say I think probably related to Lodge meetings.

But in a more general way what I'm referring to are props rich folks use in public performance. These can be subtle like the way the shirts are starched or wearing a bow tie. The Daily Mail had an article about the Succession Ball in Charleston, South Carolina with photos http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340843/Protesters-picket-Charleston-Ball-150th-anniversary-South-Carolinas-secession-U-S.html. Those folks are costumed as reenactors are. But in a less obvious way adults in my childhood dressed sometimes that's a bit like hauntology in music nowadays. I noticed it because it was different from my folks. The preppy look is more or less the same for rich Yankees as it is for Southerners, that's a form of what I mean by costume too. What I'm referring to more has to do with ritual clothing, for special events. Maybe I'm wack, but they seemed like costumes to me as a kid.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby 8bitagent » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:43 pm

wallflower wrote:One of the things that keeps me from posting here is that I'm not very rigorous. I like rigorous thinking, just don't have it in me to do much rigorous study.

I linked to the FP post not only because I thought Seymour Hersh's performance interesting, but also because FP editor Blake Houndshell's reaction to it seemed interesting too.

Conspiracy theories are really theories about networks. I'm in my fifties and an American so I've been rather conditioned to think of conspiracy theories as bunk. Also as old as I am I'm clearly not a digital native. The nice thing about that latter bit is that it keeps the Internet strange for me. One thing the advent of the Internet has done for me is to draw attention to the importance of networks and thus redeeming the importance of theories about networks but not necessarily the importance of any particular conspiracy theories. This Web site reminds to be rigorous about our intuitions.

I don't know much of anything about either the Knights of Malta nor Opus Dei. I have met people involved in Opus Dei who are closely associated with people in power. I don't know how to assess how influential that network is, but plainly the network called Opus Dei does exist.

As a kid growing up in South Carolina the radio featured H.L. Hunt Life Line. To some extent ones politics are a matter of temperament and as far as that takes us I seem temperamentally disposed towards bleeding heart liberal. So I found Hunt's radio broadcasts very disturbing as a young boy.

I never paid attention to JFK assassination theories, but I know that Hunt features prominently in many of them. Likewise I didn't pay much attention to the Hunt brothers cornering the silver market during the Carter administration, but did read the news about it.


I can understand all of that. Also I too feel Sy may be a wee bit gullible too, a bit too hungry for the latest "scoop". Also it does seem part-and-parcel for a lot of conspiratorial thinking to be seen as the product of John Birch paranoia or simply a hodgepodge of misinfo.
There's literally people who believe the "Council on Foreign Relations"(a place anyone can walk into and ask to do an interview) is some "Satanic boardroom of world controllers". I think when you peer into a lot of these myths, there is a lot dispelled.

However, history has shown us that there are at times shadowy networks and secret cabals at work. The notorious period of "Gladio" for instance, whereby in the late 1960's through early 1980's
NATO along with Italian forces using far right fascist militants were behind an endless wave of terror bombings and shootings; stage managed through a Masonic order known as "P2/Propaganda Due",
and used to falsely pin on leftist groups. The investigation as well into the BCCI bank in Pakistan also revealed a lengthy who's who of global clandestine intelligence and black market interests swirling together.

Interestingly enough, whether one believes Hunt or feels he simply wanted some fame...E Howard Hunt made a death bed confessional as to being part of the JFK conspiracy. The video was released by his son in 1997.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby 8bitagent » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:45 pm

yathrib wrote:
8bitagent wrote:
By golly, Sy Hersh still has it...and the older he gets, it seems the more the gloves come off. (For those waiting for Sy to "blow the lid off 9/11" though, they can keep waiting)

Speaking of which, how's that imminent invasion of Iran coming along? Any day now? Seriously, it seems like Hersch is the liberal establishment version of Alex Jones, saying many things that are quite interesting--and would make quite a bit of sense of the world we see around us--did they not turn out not to be quite true.


Ha, exactly. "The US and Israel will attack Iran....ANY DAY NOW!" That seemed to be the meme in 2006, though some ran with it for some time after that. I know Israel attacked Syria's suspected plant in 2007 and the CIA is suspected of aiding anti Iranian terror groups(Jundullah and MEK), but that whole "US attack on Iran" theme never felt like it had traction.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby DrVolin » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:04 pm

8bitagent wrote:Ha, exactly. "The US and Israel will attack Iran....ANY DAY NOW!"


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By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby lupercal » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:48 pm

wallflower wrote:http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/01/18/seymour_hersh_unleashed

He then alleged that Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who headed JSOC before briefly becoming the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, and his successor, Vice Adm. William McRaven, as well as many within JSOC, "are all members of, or at least supporters of, Knights of Malta."

"Many of them are members of Opus Dei. They do see what they're doing -- and this is not an atypical attitude among some military -- it's a crusade, literally. They seem themselves as the protectors of the Christians. They're protecting them from the Muslims [as in] the 13th century. And this is their function."

"They have little insignias, they coins they pass among each other, which are crusader coins," he continued. "They have insignia that reflect the whole notion that this is a culture war."

hmm.. the Knights of Malta thing is getting a lot of traction lately but if it's anything more than a plot device for hard boiled fiction and Dan Brown time-wasters I'd be surprised. As far as I've been able to google, realistically you have more to fear from getting poisoned at a Knights of Columbus spaghetti dinner. Both appear to owe their existence to a secret desire to wear fancy costumes at boring funerals and the Malta thing doesn't appear to go beyond that, except possibly as yet another beard for spook crimes a la the uber-powerful US "mafia" which I realized some time ago resides mainly on Hollywood soundstages.

Anyway if Knights of Malta were the pope's secret army I don't think "Dark Side of Camelot" Sy who gets a lot of things wrong would be talking about them on a Georgetown satellite campus. And then there's this, apropos of wtf:
Hersh relayed that he had recently spoken with "a man in the intelligence community... somebody in the joint special operations business" about the downfall of Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali in Tunisia. "He said, ‘Oh my God, he was such a good ally.'"

Sometimes I wonder about Hersch, I really do. Just my two shillings.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby 8bitagent » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:26 am

lupercal wrote:
wallflower wrote:http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/01/18/seymour_hersh_unleashed

He then alleged that Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who headed JSOC before briefly becoming the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, and his successor, Vice Adm. William McRaven, as well as many within JSOC, "are all members of, or at least supporters of, Knights of Malta."

"Many of them are members of Opus Dei. They do see what they're doing -- and this is not an atypical attitude among some military -- it's a crusade, literally. They seem themselves as the protectors of the Christians. They're protecting them from the Muslims [as in] the 13th century. And this is their function."

"They have little insignias, they coins they pass among each other, which are crusader coins," he continued. "They have insignia that reflect the whole notion that this is a culture war."

hmm.. the Knights of Malta thing is getting a lot of traction lately but if it's anything more than a plot device for hard boiled fiction and Dan Brown time-wasters I'd be surprised. As far as I've been able to google, realistically you have more to fear from getting poisoned at a Knights of Columbus spaghetti dinner. Both appear to owe their existence to a secret desire to wear fancy costumes at boring funerals and the Malta thing doesn't appear to go beyond that, except possibly as yet another beard for spook crimes a la the uber-powerful US "mafia" which I realized some time ago resides mainly on Hollywood soundstages.

Anyway if Knights of Malta were the pope's secret army I don't think "Dark Side of Camelot" Sy who gets a lot of things wrong would be talking about them on a Georgetown satellite campus. And then there's this, apropos of wtf:
Hersh relayed that he had recently spoken with "a man in the intelligence community... somebody in the joint special operations business" about the downfall of Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali in Tunisia. "He said, ‘Oh my God, he was such a good ally.'"

Sometimes I wonder about Hersch, I really do. Just my two shillings.


Knights of Columbus is worse, they along with the LDS were some of the big money backers behind revoking gay marriage rights in California in 2008. Still, I guess it's fun to think of a real life shadowy secret cabal behind the scenes; something the Dan Browns of the 1700's wrote about.

Also, to me it's all about homemade spaghetti...or what I refer to as "sketti".
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby catbirdsteed » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:36 am

http://wikicompany.org/wiki/911:Knights_of_Malta

" * This is an incomplete list of Military Order Of Malta related associations. The order consists of several layers of organizational hierarchy, some of which are close to the Vatican & Jesuits and the Black nobility, and others are further away in the hierarchy.

* In general these people are primarily involved in global business operations (central banking, corporate banking, capital investment funds, multinational corporations, etc.), but they are also heavily involved in various social (spying, information, food, healtcare, etc.) and military control programs. They invest and protect in their own 'assets' on the one hand and destroy and steal what they don't (yet) have. Operational and monetary control is their main focus.
..."
It's long, the list, an - of course- not readily verifiable. Here is a brief excerpt:

"Pilgrim Society presidents

* Benjamin, Strong (1914-1928)
* Harrison, George (1928-1940)
* Sproul, Allan (1941-1956)
* Hayes, Alfred (1956-1975)
* Volcker, Paul (1975-1979)
* Anthony, Solomon (1980-1985)
* Corrigan, E. Gerald (1985-1993)
* McDonough, William J. (1993-2003)
* Geithner, Timothy Franz (1961) 2003-present
o "Timothy F. Geithner became the ninth president and chief executive officer of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York on November 17, 2003. In that capacity, he serves as the vice chairman and a permanent member of the Federal Open Market Committee, the group responsible for formulating the nation's monetary policy. Mr. Geithner joined the Department of Treasury in 1988 and worked in three administrations for five Secretaries of the Treasury in a variety of positions. He served as Under Secretary of the Treasury for International Affairs from 1999 to 2001 under Secretaries Robert Rubin and Lawrence Summers. He was director of the Policy Development and Review Department at the International Monetary Fund from 2001 until 2003. Before joining the Treasury, Mr. Geithner worked for Kissinger Associates Mr. Geithner graduated from Dartmouth College with a bachelor’s degree in government and Asian studies in 1983 and from the Johns Hopkins University| of Advanced International Studies with a master’s in International Economics and East Asian Studies in 1985. He has studied Japanese and Chinese and has lived in East Africa, India, Thailand, China and Japan. Mr. Geithner serves as chairman of the G-10 Committee on Payment and Settlement Systems of the Bank for International Settlements. He is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and the Group of Thirty, a member of the board of directors of the Center for Global Development in Washington, D.C., a member of the board of trustees of the RAND Corporation and a trustee of the Economic Club of New York. He and his wife, Carole Sonnenfeld Geithner, have two children." [24]
o "Carole Marie Sonnenfeld and Timothy Franz Geithner, 1983 graduates of Dartmouth College, were married yesterday at his parents' summer home in East Orleans, Mass. The Rev. Thomas Keehn, a United Church of Christ minister, officiated. Mrs. Geithner, the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Albert Sonnenfeld of Princeton, N.J., is a research associate for Common Cause (?), a public-affairs lobbying group in Washington. Her father is a professor of French and comparative literature at Princeton University. Her mother, Portia Sonnenfeld, is conductor of the Chamber Symphony of Princeton. Mr. Geithner, a son of Mr. and Mrs. Peter F. Geithner of Larchmont, N.Y., graduated from the International School of Bangkok, Thailand. His father is the program officer in charge of developing countries for the Ford Foundation. His mother, Deborah Geithner, is a piano teacher. Mary P. Schowalter was maid of honor. Mr. Geithner was best man for his son." [25] "
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