Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby wallflower » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:44 am

lupercal wrote:
Sometimes I wonder about Hersch, I really do. Just my two shillings.


I wonder too. And FP editor Hounshell is scratching his head too. But I suspect we all have different questions, possibly all related ones. I want to try to be clearer about my questions.

It seems pretty clear that Hersh does have CIA sources, or at least has over the years. He's got lots of people talking to him all over government and elsewhere. Some of my questions have to do with a hunch he's not always been good about ferreting out the angle his sources are pursuing when talking to him. It's not easy to figure out when you're being feed a line and what purpose that line serves.

As far as it goes with the remark he heard about Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali of Tunisia, that certainly rings true, at least follows with US and French policy towards his regime.

And Hersh's remark about the passing of crusader coins sounds like something he actually witnessed; that is I suspect some military contacts showed him some coins rather than that Hersh just heard about officers passing coins. That's just what I suspect, I have no evidence for it.

I was interested in the Knights of Malta bit because I've seen online Bunker Hunt in connection with Knights of Malta. Bunker Hunt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Bunker_Hunt has a long connection with the John Birch Society. As fascinating a character Bunker Hunt is, there is surprisingly little about him online; that is if you exclude conspiracy theory sites.

H. L. Hunt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Hunt was a really interesting character and it seems strange to me there's not much about him online either. There is a biography of H.L. Hunt by Stanley H. Brown published in 1976 http://www.amazon.com/H-Hunt-Biography-Stanley-Brown/dp/0872234495/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295420793&sr=8-1. I haven't read the book, but to see it going for nothing on the used book market primes me to get it. Anyhow I'm hardly an expert about H.L. Hunt.

Ray Lee Hunt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Lee_Hunt inherited along with his three sisters Hunt Oil.The status of what Hunt owns now isn't clear to me Hunt Oil was sold to XTO Energy in 2008 for 4.2 billion dollars. I haven't researched it carefully, but from what I understand none of Ray Lee Hunts personal assets were involved in that sale. Anyhow Ray Hunt was a close supporter of G. W. Bush and served in some interesting capacities during the administration. He is also the Chairman of the Compensation Committee of Haliburton http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Ray_L._Hunt

H.L. Hunt was a serial bigamist and had 14 children by three different wives. This greatly complicated inheritance claims. Although Bunker Hunt was a son from H.L. Hunt's first wife, the fortune he made was his own.

So far as I can tell there is no relation between H.L. Hunt and E. Howard Hunt.

H.L. Hunt's name comes up with all sorts of deep state activities, most notably in the JFK assassination. Bunker Hunt was implicated in the Iran/Contra affair. It's worth reading this account of Bunker and his brother William Herbert Hunt's attempt to corner the silver market in 1970's culminating in 1979. This article http://silverbearcafe.com/private/01.09/circlek.html has a point of view, worth taking with a grain of salt, but seems overall to be an accurate account of what happened.

Then there's Ray Hunt and more recent history. All of them point to deep state activities.

I don't know very much and I posted the link from the FP about Seymour Hersh hoping a discussion here might shed some light.

Hersh's talk in Qatar reminded me of questions about the Hunt family. And those questions are probably tangential to what he said. The only connection was the reference to the Knights of Malta in the JOSC.

Another bit of background perhaps even more tangential is an article in the recent Atlantic by Cynthia Freeland "The Rise of the New Global Elite" http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/2011/01/the-rise-of-the-new-global-elite/8343/. It's a fascinating article and a very cheep summary of it is that the new rich are mostly people from working class backgrounds, "working rich" as Freeland calls them. And Freeland suggests they're so different that they identify primarily with each other rather than holding national identity or identifying with the old rich.

John Robb takes a different bit from the article which seems worth copying a snippett http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2011/01/the-winner-take-most-economy.html

Here's an expansion of her drivers of the winner take most economy. They are, in order of onset:

Financialization. Extreme economic leverage (from derivatives to debt). The rise of transactional morality.
Globalization. Wage, regulatory, and tax arbitrage. The collapse of moral standards via relativism. A willingness to enable mercantilists (China/Japan/Germany).
Internetization. Globally portable productivity. Network effects that lock-in success. Extreme technological leverage.

In short, these drivers have made it possible to concentrate wealth like never before over the past 30 years (and it's accelerating).


How this relates is probably quite idiosyncratic on my part. Rich people need the military to get rich among other things. Jeff Sharlet wrote about the Family in Harpers (then a book). I was fascinated by the Harpers article because it seemed to put some pieces together between my adolescent religiosity and right wing politics. Then Sharlet wrote again in Harpers about the religion in the military and how mainstream denominations became marginalized. Anyhow what I got from Sharlet's pieces was a glimpse of a network developed out of religious organizations. Quite simplified Young Life for High School, Campus Crusade for Christ in college and The Family for business and government leaders. There's sort of a feeder system.

What's strange for people in the UK to imagine is how fascinated many Americans are with Heraldry. We're famous for all sorts of bogus "knights." This document about the rise of the Christian Right is from a source that requires some skepticism called Cephas Ministries, however it provides a very short history of some of the developments of the Christian Right http://www.cephas-library.com/nwo/nwo_history_of_the_christian_right_movement.html Some of the information there is easily corroborated. Showing my lack of rigor, I'd say there's a ring of truth to it. In that Bunker Hunt's brings up the connection between Bunker Hunt and the Knights of Malta. Lots of other sites do too, but so much of what is online about Bunker Hunt is dodgy it's hard to pin that down. Bunker Hunt's connection to Campus Crusade for Christ is solid. The connection between a Catholic organization and fundamentalist Protestant ones seems strange. But even if the connections between Hunt and the Knights of Malta are primarily on dodgy sites, there seems there maybe some fact there. so I have questions.

J. Peter Grace http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Peter_Grace was a member of Sovereign Military Order of Malta. Grace is associated with deep state activities too. G.W. Bush flew planes for him and Pat Robertson worked for Grace.

What I've written here is just very rough background that makes me ask rather off topic questions about what the heck Hersh was on about in Qatar.

I threw in Freeland's article about the new rich because I question the just how big the fault lines really are between the new rich and the old. There are old rich clubs and they are quite organized. The exchange of crusader coins hardly seems something to hide from Hersh or the public for that matter. Hersh is an outsider looking in. He knows a little bit about the connections, but probably isn't initiated into any of the clubs, at least to any level of importance. I suspect that the coins suggested to him connections that he couldn't quite piece together. As they say in church, a sacrament is an outward visible sign of an inward spiritual grace. He got the visible sign part and recognized the significance, but not necessarily all of what the significance represents. That's what I suspect. New rich need association with armed forces. There are layers of institutions that no matter how rich they simply cannot crash through. I suspect crashing through isn't on their minds anyhow, but rather to become initiated into these institutions. The fundamentalist Christian aspect of the military is somewhat new, begun in the 1970's, accelerated during the Reagan era and at full bore today.

I think the Hunt family plays a significant role, as the Grace family and a hand full of others. I think Hersh is onto something. I'm not sure what exactly and I'm not sure he's figured it out. But I don't discount that he really is onto something.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby hava1 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:16 am

the iran attack - Israel indeed sees the computer worm as its attack on Iran's nuke, case closed. that was the Dagan "concept" (Meir Dagan confirmed that after resignation). So those who warned against an imminent attack were both wrong and right. Probably Hirsh is fed up of being used by his sources. I've seen it in Israel all the time, the "left wing" journos and more so activists who have "their reliable General" ties/source, are used as disinformation agents proabably after years of grooming them with good info. Usually the disinfo will serve a sort very unique consensual goal (like attacking the Iran nuke without bombs), this is ex post facto justification for the professional liars. I have seen it repeating so many times, I can already see when the journo is being prepared for the blow-scam which he is going to serve. However, things cannot be any different, the military will always have military goals. The reall good journo's are used only for nuclear causes :), which is a kind of consensus, or supposed to be one even for "left" radical critics.

As for Malta and other Italian related sects, from what I see in israel, there is some Special Forces connection (like that recent Harpaz guy who turned up to run the Pope's security unit, he is a big shot in the special commando of the military intel) , so its not all the army, or most of its command, but the special intel commandos seem to have some ties there, probably same with americans. So possibly Hirsh saw something and was appalled by how banale those conspiracy theories are, namely, how actually routinely correct :) (when it comes to special operations units, they are sect-oriented ritually abused lot).

Friends from Italy that I know report a wide joining of middle to upper class families to Opus Dei, and they also sent me a link about a "mission to Afghanistan" by Opus dei, maybe 2 months ago, with a big smiley icon.
Dont be in denial, the Christian churchs never stopped the crusades. Its a division of labor among the various denominations, and the Jews are the whores that do some of the dirty work (mainly send actual whores to fool the Moslems, for Bush). If Hirsh is Jewish he might have worken up to this banale reality of "religious wars" and felt dirty :)

on edit- what annoys my catholic friends the most, is the mention of the Evangelical involvement in israel...(point to think about sometime).
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:54 pm

Opus Dei is dangerous, thats all there is to it. The vatican once ruled the Western World don't think it ain't still on their minds. I'm sure there has been something here about Opus Dei and the dodgy bastards involved in it. (Erik prince is reputed to be a member, their founder was a mate of franco and reputed to say some highly dodgy shite.)

http://www.odan.org/media_hand_of_od.htm

Here's a debate between some Catholics:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=170764


I'm not a Catholic stopped in my teens, but my mum is. Its interesting to watch what happens in the catholic Church, there is a bit of a conflict there between the forces of oppression and niceness. Like every institution I spose...



As far as I've been able to google, realistically you have more to fear from getting poisoned at a Knights of Columbus spaghetti dinner.


Unless you were at a supermarket in belguim years ago or something...




PS Wallflower - "One of the things that keeps me from posting here is that I'm not very rigorous."

What you've posted here is great. Cheers.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:50 pm

DrVolin wrote:
8bitagent wrote:Ha, exactly. "The US and Israel will attack Iran....ANY DAY NOW!"


Stuxnet.


viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29540&start=15
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby bks » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:18 pm

wallflower, let me echo Joe's sentiments. I like what you've posted very much. Hope you'll stay

Regarding Hersh: like any reporter with more than 40 years in the business, he's a careerist, but he's made his career digging in places many other journalists don't care to look. He has a very keen sense of where the line is, and sometimes he gets pretty darn close to it. Sometimes he has to do a dance and risks sounding silly because of his willingness to toe that line. It can him look like a dupe, when really I think it's just his survival instinct kicking in.

Dancing this sort of dance results in a kind of dual consciousness. Here's some evidence of it:

Remember the story about Cheney's office contemplating a false flag provocation to draw Iran into war? Hersh's role in the affair is very revealing. He's credited with breaking the story in this video. Starts at 1:58, and the important part goes on for about a minute:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZM7ppkVCT8

Why didn't the New Yorker write about this, asks Hersh? He says because though the idea was floated by Cheney's office, it was rejected, "because you can't have Americans killing Americans". He pretends he can understand why an editor would spike the story since, after all, it was rejected, but it's easy to tell he thinks it's bullshit ass-covering on the part of the editor.

What Hersh doesn't say, but what should be obvious, is that if the "you can't have Americans killing Americans" excuse was a real one, then ideas like this wouldn't get pitched in the first place in places like Dick Cheney's office. They get pitched, because those doing the pitching know they'll be received with open ears. It's precisely because they're NOT beyond the pale that they get suggested. On some level, Hersh knows this, but his internalized survival instinct can't allow him to insist on the point. Instead, he just drops the barb about editors being "mice training to be rats".

Second thing is: with the intelligence world being what it is, how on earth could Hersh or some mouse at the New Yorker be sure that it was actually rejected? They can't be, of course, which is why this story is big news, and why it WASN'T big news.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby wallflower » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:24 am

Thanks Joe Hillshoist and bks for encouragement. I'll stay, I've been reading here for a long time. But my writing skills are suspect--lol--so how much I say is another matter.

FP put up a helpful explainer Who Are the Knights of Malta -- and What Do They Want?

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... _they_want

I'm not sure I caught the relevancy of most of the links in the piece, however a link to a 1988 New York Times article is informative.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/07/world ... lta&st=cse

And I was interested in this bit in FP's Explainer:
To be fair, the Knights have been involved in their fair share of political intrigues. In 1988, the charge d'affaires at the order's embassy in Havana confessed to being a double agent, reporting to both the CIA and Cuban intelligence. According to journalist Jeremy Scahill's book Blackwater, Joseph Schmitz, a former executive at the company who also served as inspector general for the U.S. Department of Defense, boasted of his membership in the Knights in his official biography. The defense contractor now known as Xe's chief executive, Erik Prince, reportedly espoused Christian supremacist beliefs, and its contractors in Iraq used codes and insignia based on the order's medieval compatriots, the Knights of the Templar. However, there's no evidence to suggest the Knights of Malta had any direct influence over the company.


I'm sorry I haven't figured out how to embed links and there are three links in that paragraph. The NYT's link corroborates the "confessed to being a double agent," there's a link to Jeremy Scahill's book, and the Eric Prince report is 2009 Sunday Times article http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6740735.ece

Something that the FP article seems to take at face value is that the many lodges in America which aren't officially sanctioned by the Knights of Malta, but call themselves that or something close, have no relationship. I don't have any evidence to say otherwise, but wouldn't conclude without evidence that there is no relationship. It's pretty easy to leap to conclusions either way when dealing with secretive groups and people.

The New Yorker is famous for its fact-checking. That serves Seymour Hersh well even if he chafes under the protocols.

The Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan began as a "crusade" they backtracked off using the word. The official line was: "The Bush administration has worked hard to avoid its campaign against terrorism being portrayed as a campaign against Islam." It seems throughout the media has worked hard to hew that line and bury reports about the religious fervor of the military command. The concern of course is in regards to the civilian authority over the military checked by military answering to a "higher" command. Remember General Boykin?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3199212.stm
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby Luther Blissett » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:19 pm

When I was a child I was being raised roman catholic by my Kennedian, big-bang and evolution-believing, pro-welfare and pro-public service hippie father, and was in the scouts (no perceivable funny business or corruption being carried out by the administrations in either organization either, for what it's worth. We also had gay kids in our troop without a doubt, but no one cared). At a scouting event where we hosted other troops from around the city, I noticed a strange patch on someone's uniform that I had never seen before, in an odd placement. I asked my father what it meant and he wasn't sure, but we looked it up in the handbook when we got home - it was a badge signifying membership in the Opus Dei - on the uniform of a kid who was probably 12. I'll never forget the look on my father's face when he saw that, while he was poker faced, I could tell he was disturbed.

So there was a short period of my life as a child where I was pretty obsessed with the Opus Dei - this weird sect of hard-line catholics interested in strange forms of self-punishment and self-denial, promoting themselves (or at least making their presence known) to a youth organization. As a somewhat quiet, penitent kid, whose mother studied eastern religions and both of whose parents preached plenty of humility and balance, I was repulsed by it but at the same time fascinated by the monastic aspects of it. Even at that age, something skeeved me out about it - it seemed almost pseudosexual and reminded me of heavy metal videos featuring women in black leather and bondage.

Fast forward ten years or so and I'm playing music in bands with this guy of Filipino descent, who, when I tried to start a conversation about classic literature, confessed he was raised in the Opus Dei and so had never read anything secular growing up. His personality did not jive with what I knew of the cult and I just couldn't jive how this stoner virtuoso carried the genes of two people that thought Opus Dei was a good idea. He talked about being denied everything as a child - any kind of happiness (which was much more sad than anything materialistic). His sense of feeling isolated and estranged from his family reminded me of friends who had left the Jehovah's Witnesses and had been cut off from their parents, only more violent and sinister.

Even though the self-torture that the families teach to their children supposedly doesn't "hurt," the children are still taught to know what it means and all understand fully well that the adults really have a go at it. Instructing children how to torture themselves on such a wide, systemic and programmatic scale is super fucked up and I don't see how it's legal.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:16 pm

Thanks for that luther. It fits with what I have heard about OD. Tho its all been second hand.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:27 pm

One thing that has to be borne in mind about the Knights of Malta is that, on Malta, they are very very far from being a secret society. They have plaques on their houses designating themselves as Knights of Malta. There was one just behind my hotel when I was over there, with the special "Knight of Malta" brick placed just above the letterbox built into the wall. I can't post pics of people's houses, obviously, but there were plenty of such houses around, on normal touristy streets, with very mundane cars parked outside, and no secret dungeon entrances nearby that I could discover.

The Knights of Malta are (like many other such organisations) an exclusive fraternity of wealthy or prominent citizens who do a lot of very visible (and sometimes useful) charity work, and are generally well thought of by the people in their community. They seem to specialise (worldwide) in providing free or subsidised buses and transport for charitable events, and they especially like paying for the transport of the disabled to Catholic pilgrimage sites.

As exclusive as it is as an organisation, though, I think we would do well to remember that the Knights of Malta are not some tiny club of world famous super-elite weirdos like Tony Blair and Peter McCann. It's not Bohemian Grove. It's definitely not the CFR. Pretty much every businessman of note on Malta or Gozo is a member, and I can't see the Maltese members putting up, knowingly, with the kind of activities we might accuse the KOM of being involved with. Tax fraud, protection rackets, judicial bribery or political swaying, sure. They probably all take part in that, more or less willingly, when it suits their purposes. Given their influence, political power, and obvious self-interest, they'd be fools not to. The Church obviously does it too. But much like the Masons, there is no way the entirety of the membership (however small) could be involved in some kind of deep international conspiracy of control.

Nevertheless, the SMOM is the smallest independent state in the world (smaller by a long way than Vatican City) and they are not in any way ashamed or secretive about their Crusader heritage from what I've seen (it's their whole schtick really, apart from some weird misplaced obeisance to the present Queen of England) and so it's only normal there will be suspicions of their motives and actions. Actually, the suspicions are justified.

I can't really express meself well in writing these days, I'll try to put up some videos or pics.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby lupercal » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:16 pm

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:They seem to specialise (worldwide) in providing free or subsidised buses and transport for charitable events, and they especially like paying for the transport of the disabled to Catholic pilgrimage sites.

The other night I asked a friend who volunteers at Lourdes every couple of years about this group and she basically described them in the same terms. Seems they're very active in Lourdes. Surprised me as I didn't realize they actually existed.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:15 pm

lupercal wrote:The other night I asked a friend who volunteers at Lourdes every couple of years about this group and she basically described them in the same terms. Seems they're very active in Lourdes. Surprised me as I didn't realize they actually existed.


They definitely exist. So do the Templars, Hospitallers, etc. The thing is that they're not a secret, certainly not on Malta. They march in the streets during Holy Week with their various bands (musical bands, I mean). It's great to watch.

The weird (or mundane) thing is, I could get on a bus owned and run by the KOM tommorrow, and that's in Scotland. They do commercial bussing work now, not just religious - if I decided to go on holiday up north, I could easily go on a bus owned by them. Most people don't know or care that the bus is owned by them, and there's nothing obvious to tell you that it is, but it is.

Lourdes would be one of their biggest attractions, I'd think. For Catholics it is pretty much the holiest site in Europe, and unlike with the Vatican, there is at least the sad and forlorn chance of finding a cure for what ails ye.

OFF-TOPIC: What is now being done to the privately-owned-and-run public buses on Malta is an object lesson in how free-market capitalism directly contradicts the fantasies of "owner-operator" libertarians. The Maltese government is currently in the process of privatising people's private property in order to make it more profitable. Private roperty is being seized, not for the benefit of the state or the people, but for the benefit of a private corporation who don't think it was private enough. It's ridiculous.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby wallflower » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:33 am

The 1988 NYT aricle that FP linked to is interesting. http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/07/world/knights-of-malta-and-us-picking-new-chief.html?scp=5&sq=knights%20of%20malta&st=cse
For centuries, full membership was restricted to people of noble ancestry, but in 1956 a new rank, ''knights and dames of grace and devotion,'' was opened to commoners. Since then, membership has swelled, and now nearly 60 percent of the knights do not come from noble families. Some of the fastest growth has been in the United States. The more than 2,000 Americans are the second largest national group, topped only by Italy, with nearly 3,000 members. The order has attracted Americans like the New York financier J. Peter Grace, the Washington lawyer Edward Bennett Williams and the former Cabinet secretaries Alexander M. Haig Jr. and William E. Simon.


The Knights of Malta issue Euro-denominated stamps and produce coinage. The coins are quite rare in contrast to the stamps and there are authentic coins going back to the 16th Century at least. At the link are a few pictures of fairly modern issue coins.
http://www.cointalk.com/t92115/

The sale of knighthood is something that's been going on for a while, and Americans seem particularly attracted to it. The NYT's article alludes to the difficulty in protecting their "brand" as it were. I'm not at all sure what the Knights of Malta do. It's the doing that's a bit secretive not their existence. And the prevalence of "pretenders" suggests uses for appropriation of the Knights of Malta which may not be visible to the official organization itself.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby wallflower » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:12 pm

I"m beating a dead horse with this thread, but I just saw today that FP had psoeted a transcript of Hersh's remarks.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/01/22/transcript_the_obamabush_foreign_policies_why_cant_america_change?page=full

So the trouble with some of these religious groups is they may have good things, but right now there is a tremendous, tremendous amount of anti-Muslim feeling in the military community.


I think that's an important, even if a little banal, point. And the knee-jerk reaction of FP's Blake Hounshell about "conspiracy theories" seemed an over-reaction.

Conspiracy theories are theories of networks. Sure people go off the rails with theories all the time, but that does not diminish the importance of looking at networks for understanding. It's not just the angle of anti-Muslim sentiment that's important, but also the particular sorts of Christian interpretations prevalent among the top brass. To say that looking at the networks, as Hersh suggests we need to do, for fear of conspiracy theories seems bullshit to me.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:55 am

Conspiracy theories are theories of networks. Sure people go off the rails with theories all the time, but that does not diminish the importance of looking at networks for understanding.


Nicely put.
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Re: Seymour Hersh alleges JOSC supporters Knights of Malta

Postby wallflower » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:37 pm

LTG (Ret) William G. "Jerry" Boykin and the Knights Hospitallers want to send Chocolate Cheer to soldiers in Afghanistan. http://www.conservativeactionalerts.com/blog_post/show/2033
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