Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:54 pm

23 wrote:I'm suspecting that the reason Mubarek hasn't publicly spoken yet... hours after he said that he would... is he's negotiating with the military.

Given that the military has received some positive responses from some segments of the revolutionaries.


agree. seems plausible.

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:01 pm

5 dead 870 wounded in Cairo alone.

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:11 pm

very heavy gunfire in the background: al Jazeera.

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on edit: from Tahrir(?) square, no images.

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby 23 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:15 pm

http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/docume ... /egypt.htm
The Role of the Egyptian Military in Domestic Society
LTC Stephen H. Gotowicki, U.S. Army

(excerpted)

The second myth is that the military is the ultimate guarantor of the regime. In two instances, the military has been called into the streets to respond to a domestic threat which could have endangered the government. The first occasion was the 1977 food riots. The food riots broke out when the Sadat government proposed to eliminate various subsidies which would have raised the price of many common food items. Perhaps reflecting a corporate concern for Egypt's citizens, the Army reputedly refused to intervene in the riots unless the subsidies were reestablished.37 Sadat restored the subsidies. The second was the uprising of Central Security Force (CSF) conscripts in 1986. The conscripts rioted, setting fire to tourist hotels and nightclubs, when a rumor spread that their mandatory term of service was to be extended from three years to four. Such an extension would have been a significant hardship considering that CSF conscripts were paid much less than the Army's conscripts. In both instances, the Army responded in a professional and efficient manner and returned to their barracks immediately upon conclusion of the crisis. The military's performance in these crises led to the not unrealistic public perception that the army was the ultimate safeguard against threats to the regime. Despite the effectiveness of the military in these crises, the Ministry of the Interior retains primary responsibility for domestic security.

(excerpted; bolds added)

As it relates to the principle of civil supremacy, there are strong indications that there is an acceptance by the Egyptian military of the 1971 Constitutional clause that says the Egyptian Army shall belong to the people" and an unquestioned acceptance of civilian control. However, this acceptance has not been tested since Sadat's assassination. There have been no significant popular challenges to the rule of President Mubarak. The military has shown its willingness and capability to oppose direct threats to the state and government as it did during the food and CSF riots. However, the question is perhaps open as to how the military would respond to mass popular challenges to the regime -- be they major protests over governmental corruption or part of a wider Islamic expression.
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:21 pm

^ ^
good catch.

was wondering whether there's an entrenched "mandarin class" within internal security at odds with the army.

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby anothershamus » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:33 pm

there was a banner that said 'military ordered to cooperate with police'. Now let's see what happens!
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby 23 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:35 pm

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 379823.cms
Egyptian army could hold key to Mubarak's fate

(excerpted)

Hossam Hamalawy, an Egyptian opposition activist, speaking before the unrest began, said army intervention would lead to a blood-bath or a refusal by troops to fire on their compatriots.

"Soldiers are used to war and fighting foreign enemies ... unlike police who are engaged in a daily repression job against the citizens," he said, although he added that ordinary policemen share the economic grievances of society at large.

"In the case of the army, it is even worse. The army cannot stand a confrontation with the Egyptian people today. If an uprising takes place, and the army gets sent in, I expect a disaster for the regime, not for the people," Hamalawy said.
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:42 pm

Oil on the up.

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:49 pm

Israel Has Faith Mubarak Will Prevail
By KARL VICK / JERUSALEM Friday, Jan. 28, 2011

With a deep investment in the status quo, Israel is watching what a senior official calls "an earthquake in the Middle East" with growing concern. The official says the Jewish state has faith in the security apparatus of its most formidable Arab neighbor, Egypt, to suppress the street demonstrations that threaten the dictatorial rule of President Hosni Mubarak. The harder question is what comes next.

"We believe that Egypt is going to overcome the current wave of demonstrations, but we have to look to the future," says the minister in the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Israel enjoys diplomatic relations and security cooperation with both Egypt and Jordan, the only neighboring states that have signed treaties with the Jewish state. But while it may be more efficient to deal in with a strongman in Cairo — Mubarak has ruled for 30 years — and a king in Amman, democracies make better neighbors, "because democracies do not initiate wars," he says. "Having said that, I'm not sure the time is right for the Arab region to go through the democratic process."

The minister, who spoke on condition of not being identified by name or portfolio, cites the Gaza Strip as a signal warning of the risk that comes with asking the people what they want. The seaside territory, home to some 1.5 million Palestinians, elected the militant Islamist group Hamas in a 2006 election that had been urged by George W. Bush, when the president was casting the invasion of Iraq as a mission to bring democracy to the Middle East.

All well and good in the long run, according to the official, but Arab societies demand "a longer term democratization process," one accompanied by education reforms that would encourage the election of moderates. "You can't make it with elections, especially in the current situation where radical elements, especially Islamist groups, may exploit the situation," he says. "It might take a generation or so. "

The official's assessment, which came before Friday's raucous demonstrations in Cairo, Suez and Alexandria, may strike many in the region as paternalistic, at best. Along with oil, Israel is the major factor in U.S. policy that for decades has helped protect "moderate Arab regimes" now endangered by a populist wave that began in Tunisia. In a region of national borders drawn by colonial powers after World War I, the Jewish state is frequently framed by critics as itself a colonial undertaking, conceived in Europe, midwifed by Great Britain, coddled by Washington, and imposed on an Arab region that sees Israel itself as colonizing through settlements and industrial zones on Palestinian land it has occupied militarily since 1967.

For their part, Israeli governments pride themselves on clear-eyed assessments of the risks they face. The official saw no special peril, for instance, in Lebanon's new government. Though supported by Hizballah, the Shi'a movement backed by Iran, "we don't consider it a Hizballah government," the official says. But the Israeli government was duly impressed, however, by the simultaneous outbreaks of instability across the region: citizen uprisings in Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt and Yemen; unrest in Jordan and the Kurdish section of Syria; and a secession vote in Sudan's south that likely will split the country in two.

"It seems now we have quite an earthquake," says the cabinet member, paying respects to the Al Jazeera satellite news channel and digital technologies that dispersed the power to communicate and organize. "In the time of [Egyptian president and Pan-Arabist] Gamel Abdel Nasser, Egypt had one radio channel and transistor radios were all allowed to listen to one channel."

A retired major general found other metaphors — and more cause for concern. "We need to understand that we are living on a volcano," Ya'acov Amidror, former head of the Israel Defense Forces' Research and Assessment Directorate, told the Jerusalem Post. "Conditions can change from today until tomorrow. We must ask ourselves, what is the worst case scenario. We are on thick ice, but even that melts eventually."

Friday's events offered little comfort for worried Israelis. At least twice Friday, hundreds of Cairo protestors dropped to their knees in an impromptu prayer sessions, lending the demonstrations both a measure of piety and a specific religious cast lacking from previous days — and from the Tunisian rebellion altogether, at least at first. The Israeli minister cautioned against drawing many parallels between Egypt and Tunisia, where a president fled after 27 years in office. "Mubarak is not Zine El Abidine Ben Ali," he cautions. "It's a huge difference. His regime is well rooted in the military and security apparatus. He and his wife are not criticized like the Tunisian couple." The official adds, "We do believe the regime is strong enough to overcome it."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... z1CMS6f55o

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:53 pm

Egypt Rising: Washington Dithers as its Factotum Faces Downfall

Written by Chris Floyd
Friday, 28 January 2011 13:31

Astounding things are happening in Egypt. Tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, are on the streets. As I write, there are reports that protestors have taken over police stations and attacked headquarters of the ruling party in several cities. Activists are now reporting that police in Alexandria have downed their weapons and are mingling peacefully with the crowds. And some police officers in Cairo are apparently now siding with the protestors. As the Guardian notes in its continuous live-blogging of the events:

In another extraordinary audio report Jack Shenker in Cairo reports on signs that the police are siding with the protesters. He saw a senior police officer discard a teargas canister to signal to protesters that he was on their side. Will the regime fall, he asked a state journalist. "It's already falling, it can't stop," Jack was told. Jack has seen tens of thousands of protesters on the streets.

I recommend the Guardian site as one of the best places to keep track of these breaking historic events as the day unfolds.

Meanwhile, here are a few quick takes I put down earlier this morning.

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As you might expect, As'ad AbuKhalil, the "Angry Arab," has some pertinentobservations about the protests in Egypt, and the, shall we say, attenuated response to them from the American political and media establishments. First, he examines this key question: What if this was Iran?

The Egyptian regime is clamping down hard: they stopped the internet altogether, they stopped SMS, (and Twitter and Facebook obviously shut down). Vodaphone and two other phone companies stopped SMS. Najib Suwayrus, the Egyptian billionaire friend of Jamal Mubarak, is a collaborator in the repression. Even the regime's mouthpiece, Al-Ahram, has been shut down. Egyptian goons are erasing clips of repression from Youtube. In Suez, the land lines are down.

What if this was Iran?? When there were protests in Iran, Twitter (the company) and Facebook (the company) came out in support of the protesters. The US media were enamored with the protesters back then. Why are those protesters not sexy for you? You can't say that they are Islamists this time (as if Islamists have no rights to protest -- but let us go along with the argument for the sake of it), and yet they are all alone. It will be remembered (when you ask now and later why they hate us), that Mubrak's repression took place with the full support of both parties in the US and the Obama administration. Do you know now why whenever a US official, any US official, ever utter the word "democracy", Arabs get a strong urge to throw up? In Iran, the US covertly smuggled those cute camera pens for demonstrators. They were not cute enough for the Egyptian people.


He also points us to the jaw-dropping performance of VP Joe Biden, as the Palinesque dimbulb and corporate bagman made clear the support of his boss -- the Nobel Peace Laureate -- for the bloodstained tyranny of Egyptian boss Hosni Mubarak. AbuKhalil gave an excerpt from a Christian Science Monitor piece by Dan Murphy:

Ahead of a day that could prove decisive, NewsHour host Jim Lehrer asked Biden if the time has "come for President Mubarak of Egypt to go?" Biden answered: "No. I think the time has come for President Mubarak to begin to move in the direction that – to be more responsive to some... of the needs of the people out there." Asked if he would characterize Mubarak as a dictator Biden responded: “Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.”

Think of that: all Mubarak needs to do -- after decades of iron-fisted control over a system that has plunged millions and millions of people into destitution and despair -- is to begin to move in the direction of being a bit more responsive to some of the needs of the people. And as Murphy notes, Biden went to question if any of the protestors' concerns are legitimate:

Biden [told NewsHour] "...we’re encouraging the government to act responsibly and – and to try to engage in a discussion as to what the legitimate claims being made are, if they are, and try to work them out."

If they are -- which means they might not be. Tens of thousands of ordinary people, risking their liberty and their lives to ask for bread, justice, freedom and opportunity -- this might not be legitimate. In fact, only the government which drove the people to such desperate acts can determine, after "discussion," which "claims" of the people might or might not be legitimate.

This is the position of the administration of the Nobel Peace Laureate, the Democratic Party champion whose political fortunes, we are told, must be the main focus of all decent people. This is what Barack Obama -- and his dimbulb deputy -- believe. That a tyrant is not a dictator. That no protest -- against an American factotum, that is -- can be "legitimate," unless that factotum vets the "discussion," and determines which "reforms" he might begin to move in the direction of considering.

Believe me, As'ad, it's not just Arabs who see all this and want to throw up!

Meanwhile, what is really happening in Egypt, beyond the gasbaggery in the Beltway? Ahdaf Soueif reports in the Guardian:

In Tahrir Square, in the centre of Cairo, on Tuesday night Egypt refound and celebrated its diversity. The activists formed a minor part of the gathering, what was there was The People.

Young people of every background and social class marched and sang together. Older, respected figures went round with food and blankets. Cigarette-smoking women in jeans sat next to their niqab-wearing sisters on the pavement. Old comrades from the student movement of the 1970s met for the first time in decades. Young people went round collecting litter. People who stayed at home phoned nearby restaurants with orders to deliver food to the protesters. Not one religious or sectarian slogan was heard. The solidarity was palpable. And if this sounds romantic, well, it was and is.

Then, at1am, Central Security attacked. Ferociously. Within five minutes more than 40 canisters of teargas were thrown into the crowd. When they did not disperse, the special forces went in with batons, water cannon and finally rubber bullets. People were grabbed and thrown into police trucks. Hundreds were driven off to police stations and detention centres. Private cars chased round after the police trucks to keep track of where they were taking people.

...There is a level of organisation springing up here that can best be described as solidarity in action. At various centres round the capital young activists are manning phones, documenting injuries, setting up impromptu clinics.

At the Hisham Mubarak (no relation to the president) legal centre people have not slept for 48 hours. They have documented, since 25 January, eight people killed, 24 injured and more than 800 detained. But the hotlines published on the websites have now all been blocked so fewer calls are coming in. But information keeps coming: they detained a 90-year-old man in Suez. He used to be a leader of the resistance in 1956. And he's in the protests now.


As I write, it is early Friday afternoon in Egypt. Thousands of people are in the streets. The security forces are cracking down harder than ever. (Perhaps they've gotten the green light from the regime's Potomac patrons to do whatever it takes to preserve the oh-so-non-dictatorial regime of Mubarak.) As AbuKhalil noted, the non-dictatorship has shut down the internet, and is forcing telecoms to "suspend services."

Mohamed ElBaradei, the dissident figure (who is also a Nobel Peace Laureate, even though he has never launched a single drone attack on an undefended village), has been "detained" by the non-dictatorship. His arrest comes after he issued statements criticizing Hillary Clinton for America's for bolstering the regime, which he declared was "on its last legs." Before he was taken, ElBaradei pointed to the government's efforts to cut off communication within the country, and with the outside world. As the Guardian reports:

"Egypt today is in a pre-information age," he said. "The Egyptians are in solitary confinement – that's how unstable and uncomfortable the regime is. Being able to communicate is the first of our human rights and it's being taken away from us. I haven't seen this in any other country before.

"The international community must understand we are being denied every human right day by day," he said. "Egypt today is one big prison. If the international community does not speak out it will have a lot of implications. We are fighting for universal values here. If the west is not going to speak out now, then when?"


Well, "the west" has spoken out. And it has declared that the Egyptian dictator is not a dictator, even when he is killing and beating his people in the street. It has declared that any complaints his repressed people have might not be legitimate -- and in any case, should only be addressed by the dictator himself, as he sees fit, in his own good time. Vviolence, repression, injustice, inequality, and authoritarian power as the sole determiner of "legitimacy" in society: these are the "universal values" being articulated by the leaders of the west in Washington.

But as the American bard sang long ago: "Don't speak too soon, for the wheel's still in spin;/And there's no telling who that it's naming." Like a frozen river in spring, the ice of repression is breaking in Egypt, and it is by no means certain that the factotum and his patrons will be able to dam or direct the flow.
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:59 pm

Holy shit. That Time article you posted, Vanlose, is the best example of Orwellian mindfuckery I've seen in quite some time.

Wonderful highlighting job, by the way.
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby sunny » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:00 pm

The official says the Jewish state has faith in the security apparatus of its most formidable Arab neighbor, Egypt, to suppress the street demonstrations that threaten the dictatorial rule of President Hosni Mubarak


Ok then. Israel desires and has faith in a military suppression of a popular uprising against dictatorial rule. How not surprising. What a democracy!

My prayers and my heart are with all Egyptians today. :lovehearts:
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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:04 pm

Bruce Dazzling wrote:Holy shit. That Time article you posted, Vanlose, is the best example of Orwellian mindfuckery I've seen in quite some time.

Wonderful highlighting job, by the way.


yeah, i figure that's the real state dept line, chimes with Floyd's analysis above too.

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:31 pm

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Mohamed Hussein Tantawi Soliman (Arabic: محمد حسين طنطاوى) (born 31 October 1935) is a Field Marshal and the current Egyptian minister of defense and military production and commander-in-chief of the Egyptian Armed Forces.[1]

Tantawi received his commission on 1 April 1956 serving in the infantry, and he has participated in the wars of 1956, 1967, and 1973. He has held various commands and been assigned as military attaché to Pakistan. Tantawi became minister of defense and military production and commander-in-chief of the Egyptian Armed Forces in 1991 following the dismissal of Lt. General Yousef Sabry Abo Taleb, becoming the first Egyptian since 1989 with the rank of Field Marshal. In that period, he also participated in the First Gulf War on the coalition side.

Tantawi is being seen as a possible contender for the Egyptian presidency.[2]


Among the commands Tantawi has had, are Commander of the Presidential Guard and Chief of the Operations Authority of the Armed Forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Hussein_Tantawi

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it's complicated.

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Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:40 pm

al Jazeera: US back off from endorsing Mubarak; fact that he has not spoken suggests game is up for him.


i figure state dept is working to find out who they can trust to take over/place in power, deals are being made this moment.

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