Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby hava1 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:50 am

I watched the movie "the experiment" yesterday, and besides the propaganda points there, it had a pretty good description of how people are driven to kill each other, but that's not exactly the concept we discussed here about "mk programs" of manchurian candidates. What I do think IS happening, is more along the lines of "system MKultra", namely, that we are looking into programs that run "systems" that generate conditions which make each subject maleable (?) namely, given to manipulation which assists the interest of the handling agency (cia or what not). IN that case, the chains of control are much more elusive, in terms of our legal concepts.

SInce I am facing that situation in my family (my sister is the official recruit of some Dod unit, not sure which, I am "the victim" and my other sister was married to a recruit), where control is more like a multi player chess game, or one of those Warcraft games, I am not sure this is what is meant by "programmed assassin", that's a very different situation from sirhan conspiracy theory and the old movied about manchurian candidates.

I would wecome any input or opinions by people, as to how to treat those situations.
hava1
 
Posts: 1141
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:07 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby 82_28 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:23 am

Run away, I think. Don't surround yourself with it. Sucks your sister has been lapped up, but there is nothing in my imagination that I can find that you can do with situations like this, other than to run, stay out of it and become a "phagocyte". If you look in the mirror and you see HUMAN, run. Otherwise, report for duty. Get away as fast as possible and live life. Stay curious, but ingest the history of at least the twentieth century and use those connections to get at the myth of this power and where it began.

The Empire Never Ended. . .

I know I'm a PKDicktard, but read this, if you haven't already. Honestly, it has provided all existential answers to me for all of time and it is really where I draw all of any kind of wisdom I try and muster. Plus it's open-source -- if you get what I mean by that. . .

http://deoxy.org/pkd_tcs.htm

We must begin redesigning the old world by not believing it has ever been real.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
User avatar
82_28
 
Posts: 11194
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:34 am
Location: North of Queen Anne
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby hava1 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:56 am

thanks, I bookmarked and will read. !

Its a bit of a problem running away from those structures, but yes I think its possible. I have improved in shaking off the baits, most of them, and the MO seems predictable after a while.

and yes, our mistake lies in ignorance, which leads to hubris, which leads to destruction. (been there). Also humility is being able to admit one is helpless to CHANGE that, and can only hope for a dry branch of a tree, for oneself.

Thanks.

82_28 wrote:Run away, I think. Don't surround yourself with it. Sucks your sister has been lapped up, but there is nothing in my imagination that I can find that you can do with situations like this, other than to run, stay out of it and become a "phagocyte". If you look in the mirror and you see HUMAN, run. Otherwise, report for duty. Get away as fast as possible and live life. Stay curious, but ingest the history of at least the twentieth century and use those connections to get at the myth of this power and where it began.

The Empire Never Ended. . .

I know I'm a PKDicktard, but read this, if you haven't already. Honestly, it has provided all existential answers to me for all of time and it is really where I draw all of any kind of wisdom I try and muster. Plus it's open-source -- if you get what I mean by that. . .

http://deoxy.org/pkd_tcs.htm

We must begin redesigning the old world by not believing it has ever been real.
hava1
 
Posts: 1141
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:07 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby The Consul » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:42 pm

hava1 wrote:thanks
the discussion was a bit more elaborate than my final conclusion (which goes to "legal accountability in cases of individual manslaughter"). The assertion I refuted was that MK Ultra experiments produced killers who were programmed for that purpose. The cited experiments to prove it, only show that ANY individual under certain hypnosis was shown to have easily picked a gun and shot someone by command. So, if anyone could be so ordered, the MK context is irrelevant, otherwise, I know, and agree, that we are easily convinced by others to hate and destroy. BUt was not the point of discussion.

Beatrice tells Lucifer that "he made Dante sin", but Lucifer insists that he usually does not need to interfere :). that's philosophy.


True, true. But still, sometimes when the phone rings and it's a wrong number I worry the voice on the other end will say something like "the banjo broke the foxtrot springs" and I'll either go out on a rampage or become a recluse arbiter elegantiarum of half melted Ken dolls.
" Morals is the butter for those who have no bread."
— B. Traven
User avatar
The Consul
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Ompholos, Disambiguation
Blog: View Blog (13)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby hava1 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:00 pm

I share you concern consul, and I am sure I am still responding to cues, thanks for reminder to consider that fact, when going into "recluse mode " :))

My argument, with PW, was whether - if proven, as best as possible, could constitute a valid defense in a murder trial, if you remember...

Harming oneself, is so far, not a criminal offense, and I think that most of the posters here who idenfity as victims (myself included) can attest to only harming themselves upom orders and programming.Usually in terms of compromising sexual integrity.

And then we cannot really "extend" the experience to killers. I also agreed that if a person could possibly prove being programmed from childhood, and then had killed under orders of same abusers, I would find it easier to mount a defense of "programming". I dont know that its possible to program to kill, I also assume those who are picked for that, have their tendencies to fit the job, so that would be hard to pinpoint the loss of autonomy over decisions, especially if the matter relates to multiple murders. At which point I reminded PW and others here, that the law is cold, and many times crude, and rarely applied with even hand.
In my case, although my programming was clearly on the sexual side , and had compromised only my well being, which is no crime, I was found "guilty" in a quasi legal proceeding, in Canada, not the worst country in terms of the justice system and all that.

I would recommend not to pick up phone calls, on landphone particularly from unknown ID, if one is at risk. In the last few days, in fact, I had an interesting event with the landphone. I never answer, and I only return calls. However, the "trick" is, that if I called someone I know, and immediately after tI hang up, there's a ringing, and I assume its that person calling back to say some last thing, and then...the 'suspicious call' enters. That happened twice this week, days before my DoD sister is arriving at ISrael, with her DoD hubbie. So, I should take notice, and this little post of yours is a good reminder. And also a good time to share some MK experiences with fellow victims.

The rest of the arguments were on the question whether it really mattered if the subject=person is a soldier or not. I claimed that this status is irrelevant, for this discussion on "programming to kill", coz either this can be done, no matter in what institution, or not.
hava1
 
Posts: 1141
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:07 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby Jeff » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:08 pm

Convicted RFK assassin says girl manipulated him

By LINDA DEUTSCH The Associated Press
updated 1 hour 52 minutes ago

LOS ANGELES — Convicted assassin Sirhan Sirhan was manipulated by a seductive girl in a mind control plot to shoot Sen. Robert F. Kennedy, and his bullets did not kill the presidential candidate, lawyers for Sirhan said in new legal papers.

The documents filed this week in federal court detail extensive interviews with Sirhan during the past three years, some done while he was under hypnosis.

The papers point to a mysterious girl in a polka-dot dress as the controller who led Sirhan to fire a gun in the pantry of the Ambassador Hotel. But the documents suggest a second person shot and killed Kennedy while using Sirhan as a diversion.

For the first time, Sirhan said under hypnosis that on a cue from the girl he went into "range mode" believing he was at a firing range and seeing circles with targets in front of his eyes.

"I thought that I was at the range more than I was actually shooting at any person, let alone Bobby Kennedy," Sirhan was quoted as saying during interviews with Daniel Brown, a Harvard University professor and expert in trauma memory and hypnosis. He interviewed Sirhan for 60 hours with and without hypnosis, according to the legal brief.

...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42806895/ns/us_news/
User avatar
Jeff
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11134
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 8:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby hava1 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:22 pm

Sounds like credible description.
hava1
 
Posts: 1141
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:07 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby 8bitagent » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:57 pm

Geez, finally.

The acoustics alone show there was another shooter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbAp6kbL ... 0C0B6BF822

I'm guessing CIA spooks found Sirhan Sirhan post horse injury head accident at the Rosicrucian order, put the "RFK supports murder of Palestinians" in his head,
and the rest is history.

These kinds of operations seem like exceptional double bind win-win for the perps. Even though there are huge anomalies, they count on most people not even wanting to entertain conspiracy.
On the other hand, those that do...they can just say "oh right, grassy knoll, little green men, bigfoot right? whats this, mind control? Geez...everyone saw Sirhan fire, end of story".

But unlike Mcveigh, Khalid Sheikh Mohamed/Ramzi Yousef, etc...Sirhan Sirhan always denied involvement.

Now let's see if the leftist/alternative media picks up on this(other than Rawstory)...

From three years ago "New Evidence Challenges Official RFK Story"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/ ... assination
"Do you know who I am? I am the arm, and I sound like this..."-man from another place, twin peaks fire walk with me
User avatar
8bitagent
 
Posts: 12243
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:49 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby hava1 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:14 am

I think that many people DO understand what is going on, but do not feel there is anything to gain by dwelling on that. For instance, suppose people DO think that a certain terrorist attack is false flagged by their own gov, so, its part of the power they entrusted with their gov, and most people really want others "up there" to make decisions. Once a person senses that "the foul deed had been done" , and succeeded, and was confirmed by "authority", they see no point in getting worked up. I think same goes for MK situations, false flag terrorist attacks, and other "large scams" of this sort.

The victims of these scams sometimes attempt to protest and claim "conspiracy", but soon they realize it will do them no good to raise those arguments, and go against "the flow", so they agree to spin the event, the way it was meant to be spun, in order to cut their losses.


8bitagent wrote:Geez, finally.

The acoustics alone show there was another shooter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbAp6kbL ... 0C0B6BF822

I'm guessing CIA spooks found Sirhan Sirhan post horse injury head accident at the Rosicrucian order, put the "RFK supports murder of Palestinians" in his head,
and the rest is history.

These kinds of operations seem like exceptional double bind win-win for the perps. Even though there are huge anomalies, they count on most people not even wanting to entertain conspiracy.
On the other hand, those that do...they can just say "oh right, grassy knoll, little green men, bigfoot right? whats this, mind control? Geez...everyone saw Sirhan fire, end of story".

But unlike Mcveigh, Khalid Sheikh Mohamed/Ramzi Yousef, etc...Sirhan Sirhan always denied involvement.

Now let's see if the leftist/alternative media picks up on this(other than Rawstory)...

From three years ago "New Evidence Challenges Official RFK Story"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/ ... assination
hava1
 
Posts: 1141
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:07 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby Nordic » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:25 am

I think a great many people, at some point, make a conscious decision to believe the fantasy.

But most? Nah, they're just sponges.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby alwyn » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:24 am

interesting thread. The question has been raised as to whether one could be programmed to kill, and whether there is a legal defense. Paul Crockett, in the Manson murder trials, did introduce 'programming to kill' into the legal lexicon. As far as I know, Charlie used drugs and group sex to lower the threshold of inhibition, and then, with the psychic cookie jar open, so to speak, introduced 'suggestions' to kill. Paul Crockett, when he came across Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins and Juan Flynn in Goler Canyon, deprogrammed them. And they got off (not least because they did not kill) but also because they were able to introduce evidence as to how Charlie set it up.

So, there is both the condition and the hope. In a free and fair court of law, (not totally an oxymoron, one hopes) one can get 'out of jail' due to the programming card.

Oddly enough, the experts say that the essential being cannot be programmed. The personality? All bets are off...

The whole coup that took place in the 60's, around the Kennedy and MLK assasinations, seems to be where the military industrial complex really tightened their grip on the government. At least at the time, we had the 'hippie revolt' to counter. AFter the coup of 9/11, well, we have the internet. So far.

Whether Sirhan gets off or not? I"m guessing not, because the PTB still has the football in play, so to speak.
question authority?
alwyn
 
Posts: 771
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:25 pm
Location: Laytonville
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby hava1 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:30 am

Arab assassins, jewish (russian) sex slaves...tell us about the "state of mind" of the conspirators.
ITs probably something in the "essential personality" of certain races...
hava1
 
Posts: 1141
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:07 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby 8bitagent » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:53 am

"there's no question that there was another gunman"-John Pilger, who witnessed the shooting first hand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pilge ... and_career

Seriously, is John Pilger not one of the most courageous and ballsiest reporters out there?
"Do you know who I am? I am the arm, and I sound like this..."-man from another place, twin peaks fire walk with me
User avatar
8bitagent
 
Posts: 12243
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:49 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby RocketMan » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:16 am

Jeff wrote:
Convicted RFK assassin says girl manipulated him

By LINDA DEUTSCH The Associated Press
updated 1 hour 52 minutes ago

LOS ANGELES — Convicted assassin Sirhan Sirhan was manipulated by a seductive girl in a mind control plot to shoot Sen. Robert F. Kennedy, and his bullets did not kill the presidential candidate, lawyers for Sirhan said in new legal papers.

The documents filed this week in federal court detail extensive interviews with Sirhan during the past three years, some done while he was under hypnosis.

The papers point to a mysterious girl in a polka-dot dress as the controller who led Sirhan to fire a gun in the pantry of the Ambassador Hotel. But the documents suggest a second person shot and killed Kennedy while using Sirhan as a diversion.

For the first time, Sirhan said under hypnosis that on a cue from the girl he went into "range mode" believing he was at a firing range and seeing circles with targets in front of his eyes.

"I thought that I was at the range more than I was actually shooting at any person, let alone Bobby Kennedy," Sirhan was quoted as saying during interviews with Daniel Brown, a Harvard University professor and expert in trauma memory and hypnosis. He interviewed Sirhan for 60 hours with and without hypnosis, according to the legal brief.

...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42806895/ns/us_news/


I found this AP report to be surprisingly neutral. It's a rare thing to see these things reported like other pieces of news.

Then again, we have this little tidbit:

Pepper, a New York lawyer with an international practice, previously tried to prove that James Earl Ray was not the assassin of Martin Luther King Jr.
-I don't like hoodlums.
-That's just a word, Marlowe. We have that kind of world. Two wars gave it to us and we are going to keep it.
User avatar
RocketMan
 
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:02 am
Location: By the rivers dark
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby Julia W » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:36 pm

Convicted RFK assassin says girl manipulated him
By LINDA DEUTSCH, AP Special Correspondent Linda Deutsch, Ap Special Correspondent –
Thu Apr 28, 6:24 pm ET
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110428/ap_ ... assination
LOS ANGELES – Convicted assassin Sirhan Sirhan was manipulated by a seductive girl in a mind control plot to shoot Sen. Robert F. Kennedy, and his bullets did not kill the presidential candidate, lawyers for Sirhan said in new legal papers.

The documents filed this week in federal court and obtained by The Associated Press detail extensive interviews with Sirhan during the past three years, some done while he was under hypnosis.

The papers point to a mysterious girl in a polka-dot dress as the controller who led Sirhan to fire a gun in the pantry of the Ambassador Hotel. But the documents suggest a second person shot and killed Kennedy while using Sirhan as a diversion.

For the first time, Sirhan said under hypnosis that on a cue from the girl he went into "range mode" believing he was at a firing range and seeing circles with targets in front of his eyes.

"I thought that I was at the range more than I was actually shooting at any person, let alone Bobby Kennedy," Sirhan was quoted as saying during interviews with Daniel Brown, a Harvard University professor and expert in trauma memory and hypnosis. He interviewed Sirhan for 60 hours with and without hypnosis, according to the legal brief.

Sandi Gibbons, a spokeswoman for the Los Angeles County district attorney, said prosecutors were unaware of the legal filing and could not comment.

The story of the girl has been a lingering theme in accounts of the events just after midnight on June 5, 1968, when Kennedy was gunned down in the hotel pantry after claiming victory in the California Democratic presidential primary.

Witnesses talked of seeing such a female running from the hotel shouting, "We shot Kennedy." But she was never identified, and amid the chaos of the scene, descriptions were conflicting.

Through the years, Sirhan has claimed no memory of shooting Kennedy and said in the recent interviews that his presence at the hotel was an accident, not a planned destination.

Under hypnosis, he remembered meeting the girl that night and becoming smitten with her. He said she led him to the pantry.

"I am trying to figure out how to hit on her.... That's all that I can think about," he says in one interview cited in the documents. "I was fascinated with her looks .... She never said much. It was very erotic. I was consumed by her. She was a seductress with an unspoken unavailability."

Brown was hired by Sirhan's lawyer William F. Pepper.

Pepper's associate, attorney Laurie Dusek, attended the interviews. and Brown said in the documents they both took verbatim notes because prison officials would not let them tape record nearly all the sessions.

Sirhan maintained in the hypnotic interviews that the mystery girl touched him or "pinched" him on the shoulder just before he fired then spun him around to see people coming through the pantry door.

"Then I was on the target range ... a flashback to the shooting range ... I didn't know that I had a gun," Sirhan said.

Under what Brown called the condition of hypnotic free recall, he said Sirhan remembered seeing the flash of a second gun at the time of the assassination. Without hypnosis, he said, Sirhan could not remember that shot.

Pepper, a New York lawyer with an international practice, previously tried to prove that James Earl Ray was not the assassin of Martin Luther King Jr.

The lawyer said he is convinced that Sirhan was a victim of a mind control project such as those used by the CIA in the 1960s. He is seeking an evidentiary hearing to exonerate Sirhan in Kennedy's killing.

Dusek said in an interview that Sirhan was hypnotized for perhaps 30 percent of the interviews, most of which had to be done through a glass partition with Brown talking to him on a phone.

Only when Sirhan was moved from the state prison at Corcoran to his current location at Pleasant Valley State Prison in Coalinga were they allowed face-to-face visits, she said, and a few of those were recorded.

Other portions of the motion allege suppression of ballistics evidence and the autopsy report, and claim ineffective assistance of counsel. It contends previous lawyers for Sirhan accepted from the start that he was the lone shooter, settled on a defense of diminished capacity and did not seek other avenues of defense.

During the trial, Sirhan tried to confess to killing Kennedy "with 20 years of malice aforethought," but the judge rejected the blurted statement.

A large portion of the new documents seek to prove the bullets that hit Kennedy came from a different direction than the spot where Sirhan was standing. The papers do not name any other possible shooter.

Sirhan was denied parole in March by a panel that said he had not shown sufficient remorse for the killing.
Julia W
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:03 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 53 guests