Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby lupercal » Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:14 am

Jeff wrote:
Convicted RFK assassin says girl manipulated him

By LINDA DEUTSCH The Associated Press
updated 1 hour 52 minutes ago

LOS ANGELES — Convicted assassin Sirhan Sirhan was manipulated by a seductive girl in a mind control plot to shoot Sen. Robert F. Kennedy, and his bullets did not kill the presidential candidate, lawyers for Sirhan said in new legal papers.

The documents filed this week in federal court detail extensive interviews with Sirhan during the past three years, some done while he was under hypnosis.

The papers point to a mysterious girl in a polka-dot dress as the controller who led Sirhan to fire a gun in the pantry of the Ambassador Hotel. But the documents suggest a second person shot and killed Kennedy while using Sirhan as a diversion.

For the first time, Sirhan said under hypnosis that on a cue from the girl he went into "range mode" believing he was at a firing range and seeing circles with targets in front of his eyes.

"I thought that I was at the range more than I was actually shooting at any person, let alone Bobby Kennedy," Sirhan was quoted as saying during interviews with Daniel Brown, a Harvard University professor and expert in trauma memory and hypnosis. He interviewed Sirhan for 60 hours with and without hypnosis, according to the legal brief.

...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42806895/ns/us_news/


came across this from a 1979 book by John Marks called The Search for the Manchurian Candidate, from chapter 11 on hypnosis, more at the link:

The CIA's first behavioral research czar, Morse Allen of ARTICHOKE, was intrigued by hypnosis. He read everything he could get his hands on, and in 1951 he went to New York for a four-day course from a well-known stage hypnotist. This hypnotist had taken the Svengali legend to heart, and he bombarded Allen with tales of how he used hypnosis to seduce young women. He told the ARTICHOKE chief that he had convinced one mesmerized lady that he was her husband and that she desperately wanted him. That kind of deception has a place in covert operations, and Morse Allen was sufficiently impressed to report back to his bosses the hypnotist's claim that "he spent approximately five nights a week away from home engaging in sexual intercourse."

Apart from the bragging, the stage hypnotist did give Morse Allen a short education in how to capture a subject's attention and induce a trance. Allen returned to Washington more convinced than ever of the benefits of working hypnosis into the ARTICHOKE repertory and of the need to build a defense against it. With permission from above, he decided to take his hypnosis studies further, right in his own office. He asked young CIA secretaries to stay after work and ran them through the hypnotic paces—proving to his own satisfaction that he could make them do whatever he wanted. He had secretaries steal SECRET files and pass them on to total strangers, thus violating the most basic CIA security rules. He got them to steal from each other and to start fires. He made one of them report to the bedroom of a strange man and then go into a deep sleep. "This activity clearly indicates that individuals under hypnosis might be compromised and blackmailed," Allen wrote.

On February 19, 1954, Morse Allen simulated the ultimate experiment in hypnosis: the creation of a "Manchurian Candidate," or programmed assassin. Allen's "victim" was a secretary whom he put into a deep trance and told to keep sleeping until he ordered otherwise. He then hypnotized a second secretary and told her that if she could not wake up her friend, "her rage would be so great that she would not hesitate to 'kill.' " Allen left a pistol nearby, which the secretary had no way of knowing was unloaded. Even though she had earlier expressed a fear of firearms of any kind, she picked up the gun and "shot" her sleeping friend. After Allen brought the "killer" out of her trance, she had apparent amnesia for the event, denying she would ever shoot anyone.

With this experiment, Morse Allen took the testing as far as he could on a make-believe basis, but he was neither satisfied nor convinced that hypnosis would produce such spectacular results in an operational setting.

link to the full chapter (no mention of Sirhan or William Jennings Bryan, who is thought to have hypnotized him, or any other successful operation): http://www.psychedelic-library.org/marks11.htm
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby lupercal » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:05 am

8bitagent wrote:I'm guessing CIA spooks found Sirhan Sirhan post horse injury head accident at the Rosicrucian order, put the "RFK supports murder of Palestinians" in his head,
and the rest is history.

Interesting. Found this on "HorseRaceInsider.com":

The Short, Unhappy Track Life of Sirhan Sirhan
Bill Christine, Tuesday, April 26, 2011

LOS ANGELES, April 26, 2011--The recent denial of parole for Sirhan Sirhan, for the 14th time, rekindled my interest in the pipsqueak who was convicted of shooting Bobby Kennedy dead 43 years ago. Sirhan is the most intriguing of the American assassins, at least for me, because, in one of those historical hypotheses, he might have wound up at the racetrack, and lived happily ever after.

After Sirhan was tried, convicted and sentenced, there was a groundswell of literary couch jobs, and while none suggested that he was going to be Bill Shoemaker incarnate, Sirhan himself thought enough of his horsebacking to once show up at Bob Wheeler's Santa Anita barn looking for work. Wheeler, one of the best trainers not to be elected to the Racing Hall of Fame, turned him down. At least that's what Henry Ramistella, a former jockey, told the Los Angeles police in an interview about 11 months after Kennedy was killed.

I think his name was Henry Ramistella. This was a horseman who had an alias for every occasion. He was Ramistella in New Jersey, where the stewards put his feet to the fire for allegedly stiffing a horse. When he arrived in California, he applied for a license in the name of Frank Donneroummas. Authorities out here rescinded his credentials after they discovered the dirty linen he had left behind on the East Coast. According to the police, Ramistella also operated for a time as Frank Rumma. Where did he find these names? In Harlequin novels? Did he eat a lot of alphabet soup, and pick out whatever letters ended up at the bottom of the bowl?

Under the name of Donneroummas, he was Sirhan Sirhan's boss at Granja Vista del Rio Farm near Corona, California. You don't need a state license to work at a farm. Granja Vista del Rio was no fly-by-night outfit. The nom de course for construction magnate Bert Altfillisch, Granja Vista campaigned a number of stakes winners, including Hombre Rapido, Granja Realiza and Pareja. Other investors in the operation were said to be Desi Arnaz, Buddy Ebsen and Dale Robertson.

At the farm, they began calling him "Sol," which was hardly fitting for a Jerusalem-born young man from a Palestinian Christian family. According to Larry Hancock, who wrote extensively about Bobby Kennedy's death, Sirhan and Altfillisch didn't get along. After Sirhan's arrest, authorities discovered a rambling diary/notebook at his home. "I believe I can effect the death of Bert Altfillisch," was one entry. Altfillisch, who was 87, died of natural causes in 2006.

Sirhan is either 5-foot-2 or 5-foot-5, depending on the source. Either way, at 120 pounds in 1966, when he was 22, he was the right size for a jockey. In September of that year, he was exercising a quarter horse at Altfillisch's farm when he was thrown and suffered serious head injuries and an eye injury that limited his peripheral vision. A worker's compensation claim resulted in a payment of $1,705, and he apparently had cashed the check only weeks before he shot Kennedy. At the time of his arrest, he had four hundred-dollar bills in his pocket.

Sirhan's riding career ended with that 1966 accident, which gave him more time to dabble in arcane disciplines such as theosophy and the Rosicrucians. Occult or cult, I'll let you decide. In Shane O'Sullivan's "Who Killed Bobby?" Sirhan was led down this path by Tom Rathke, another racetracker. They were inseparable for a few years at California tracks, until Rathke moved to Pleasanton, to work with horses at the Alameda County fairgrounds. Rathke told authorities that Sirhan's mother had told him that her son "wasn't himself" and had become "less communicative" after the riding accident.

Sirhan also developed an interest in hypnotism. He allowed himself to be hypnotized on stage at a Pasadena nightclub, not far from where he lived.
He took classes at Pasadena City College. But he continued to go to Santa Anita, sometimes with Rathke, as the two of them tried to beat the horses. Sirhan supported his betting habit by working at a Chevron gas station. The New York Times said that when Sirhan went to the track he would bet "on every race." He would come away either "winning a bundle" or "losing everything in his pockets. Once he did so well he quit working. . . and lived off his winnings."

The last day of Bobby Kennedy's life, Sirhan was in Pasadena, about 25 miles from the Ambassador Hotel, where Kennedy would celebrate his win in the Democratic presidential primary. Testimony during Sirhan's trial is in conflict with what O'Sullivan wrote, but it is clear that Sirhan was furious that Kennedy supported Israel in the Six-Day War and beyond. Based on what O'Sullivan wrote, Sirhan had no plans to visit the Ambassador. Early in the evening, he asked a friend if he wanted to play pool at Pasadena City College's Student Union. The friend said no. If they play pool, Kennedy lives. If Jack Ruby isn't first in line at a Dallas Western Union, to wire some money to a stripper who worked at his club, he doesn't get to the police basement in time to kill Oswald.

With the pool game off, Sirhan asks his friend to see his newspaper. He wants to check the race results, and see who's running the next day. The paper also has an item that says there's going to be an anti-Israeli demonstration not far from the Ambassador. Sirhan gets in his Mustang, which he had bought with some of the insurance money, and drives to the hotel. He begins drinking, O'Sullivan writes, and decides to leave. But at the car, he decides that he's too drunk to drive. He returns to the hotel, and is able to gain entry to a pantry in the kitchen just off the ballroom. Years later, a bellman told me he'd take me over to that pantry for five bucks. I told him I couldn't afford it.

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/west-co ... han-sirhan
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby lupercal » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:34 am

alwyn wrote:Paul Crockett, in the Manson murder trials, did introduce 'programming to kill' into the legal lexicon. As far as I know, Charlie used drugs and group sex to lower the threshold of inhibition, and then, with the psychic cookie jar open, so to speak, introduced 'suggestions' to kill. Paul Crockett, when he came across Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins and Juan Flynn in Goler Canyon, deprogrammed them. And they got off (not least because they did not kill) but also because they were able to introduce evidence as to how Charlie set it up.

This caught my eye because a) I've always thought Manson was a patsy, not that he was innocent necessarily, just that he was set up to take the rap for some kind of spook-drug-witness-elimination operation that he wasn't even present at, and b) there are a lot of odd links between the Tate-LaBianca and RFK assassinations. For one thing the sensational 1969 Tate murders and Manson trial apparently displaced RFK as the local media obsession, for another, Bugliosi of "Reclaiming History" fame was the chief prosecutor in the Manson trial, and finally there are various rumors and claims linking the two that I can't really vouch for except to say that they're interesting, for example here:

http://www.charliemanson.info/index.html
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby 8bitagent » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:39 am

lupercal wrote:
Sirhan's riding career ended with that 1966 accident, which gave him more time to dabble in arcane disciplines such as theosophy and the Rosicrucians. Occult or cult, I'll let you decide. In Shane O'Sullivan's "Who Killed Bobby?" Sirhan was led down this path by Tom Rathke, another racetracker. They were inseparable for a few years at California tracks, until Rathke moved to Pleasanton, to work with horses at the Alameda County fairgrounds.[b] Rathke told authorities that Sirhan's mother had told him that her son "wasn't himself" and had become "less communicative" after the riding accident.

Sirhan also developed an interest in hypnotism. He allowed himself to be hypnotized on stage at a Pasadena nightclub, not far from where he lived.


The Jack Parsons to his L Ron Hubbard, interesting. The RFK documentary left that part out, as I was thinking "how the hell did he go from from severe head injuries from a horse accident to being obsessed with esoteric subject matter? It was occult military expert and remote viewer/psi army research star Bert Rodriguez who worked with lead Flight 93 hijacker Ziad Jarrah in close quarter combat training for six months.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby lupercal » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:04 am

^ yeah I meant to bold the part about Rathke. Always a helpful friend to shuttle the patsies around. I'm surprised Sirhan has made it this far but if he keeps remembering stuff like this he won't make it much further I'm afraid. And I'd be very surprised if they ever let him out on parole. Ya never know but frankly I don't think he has a chance in hell.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby alwyn » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:18 am

lupercal wrote:
alwyn wrote:Paul Crockett, in the Manson murder trials, did introduce 'programming to kill' into the legal lexicon. As far as I know, Charlie used drugs and group sex to lower the threshold of inhibition, and then, with the psychic cookie jar open, so to speak, introduced 'suggestions' to kill. Paul Crockett, when he came across Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins and Juan Flynn in Goler Canyon, deprogrammed them. And they got off (not least because they did not kill) but also because they were able to introduce evidence as to how Charlie set it up.

This caught my eye because a) I've always thought Manson was a patsy, not that he was innocent necessarily, just that he was set up to take the rap for some kind of spook-drug-witness-elimination operation that he wasn't even present at, and b) there are a lot of odd links between the Tate-LaBianca and RFK assassinations. For one thing the sensational 1969 Tate murders and Manson trial apparently displaced RFK as the local media obsession, for another, Bugliosi of "Reclaiming History" fame was the chief prosecutor in the Manson trial, and finally there are various rumors and claims linking the two that I can't really vouch for except to say that they're interesting, for example here:

http://www.charliemanson.info/index.html


That is really rather a lame website, no offense...Mark who was where?

While the alphabet agencies might have capitalized on the notoriety of the Tate/LaBianca murders, Manson was not a CIA asset. What Crockett said was "[Manson} had no conscience" and that they would never have caught him if whatever 'voice in the desert' hadn't sent Crockett out to Goler canyon in the first place.

Oddly enough, Brooks thought the reason Paul Crockett came there was because Poston had stood at the top of a cliff and yelled to the universe 'there has got to be some help out here, someone must know something'...goes with the voices meme. There are good ones and bad ones :angelwings:
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby lupercal » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:43 am

^ one thing we do know is that Manson didn’t commit these murders, because he wasn’t there. Then there’s the question of motive which I won’t go into as I’ve never made much of a study of this case but from what I recall the official Bugliosi-established motive barely rises above serial-killer craziness – something about a recording career? And I don’t know the figures you’re referring to but I have to say that a 'voice in the desert' leading to the killers sounds about as plausible as mobile bio-weapons labs in Iraq.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby 8bitagent » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:50 am

lupercal wrote:^ yeah I meant to bold the part about Rathke. Always a helpful friend to shuttle the patsies around. I'm surprised Sirhan has made it this far but if he keeps remembering stuff like this he won't make it much further I'm afraid. And I'd be very surprised if they ever let him out on parole. Ya never know but frankly I don't think he has a chance in hell.


Well it's interesting how John Hinckley Jr has pretty much been a free man for the better part of the last decade.

He was allowed to leave the hospital for supervised visits with his parents in 1999, and longer unsupervised releases in 2000.[6] These privileges were revoked when he was found to have smuggled materials about Foster back into the hospital. Hinckley was later allowed supervised visits in 2004 and 2005. Court hearings were held in September 2005 on whether he could have expanded privileges to leave the hospital. Some of the testimony during the hearings centered on whether Hinckley is capable of having a normal relationship with a woman and, if not, whether that would have any bearing on what danger he would pose to society.

On December 30, 2005, a federal judge ruled that Hinckley would be allowed visits, supervised by his parents, to their home in Williamsburg, Virginia. The judge ruled that Hinckley could have up to three visits of three nights and then four visits of four nights, each depending on the successful completion of the last. All of the experts who testified at Hinckley's 2005 conditional release hearing, including the government experts, agreed that his depression and psychotic disorder were in full remission and that he should have some expanded conditions of release.

After Hinckley requested further freedoms including two one-week visits with his parents, as well as a month-long visit, U.S. District Judge, Paul L. Friedman, denied that request on Wednesday, June 6, 2007; he did not deny the request out of a concern that Hinckley was not ready.

The reasons the court has reached this decision rest with the hospital, not with Mr. Hinckley... the hospital has not taken the steps it must take before any such transition can begin.[24]

On June 17, 2009, a Federal judge ruled that Hinckley would be given the ability to visit his mother for a dozen visits of ten days at a time, rather than six, spend more time outside of the hospital, and even have a driver's license.[25] The court also ordered that Hinckley be required to carry a GPS-enabled cell phone to track him whenever he was outside of his parent's home, and he was forbidden to speak to the news media.[26] This was done over the objections of the prosecutors who said that he was still a danger to others and had unhealthy and inappropriate thoughts about women. Records show that he has had sexual relations with two women, one who was married for a long time and another who has bipolar disorder. Hinckley recorded a song titled "Ballad of an Outlaw", which the prosecutors claim is "reflecting suicide and lawlessness."[27]

Recently, a forensic psychologist at the hospital testified that "Hinckley has recovered to the point that he poses no imminent risk of danger to himself or others." [28] Hinckley is expected back in court in spring of 2011 for further directions from the court. [29]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hinck ... Elizabeths

Guess it pays to have friends and family with deep connections. People like Hinckley, Ali Mohamed, etc are not free because they did their time; but because they served a vital interest and did not need to be terminated(like Oswald, Mcveigh, etc were)
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby hava1 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:53 am

Without anythink to back it, I am not sure that you are reading the situation correctly. Its quite possible that the issue of MK is going to be carefully released, of course with all the limited hangouts etc. This is like nuclear arms, the policy of obscurity ran its course, and perhaps overt deterence is called for, perhaps also because there are newer weapons already operating.

I am not sure what is the gist of the matter with Sirhan, are people going to be upset about "who killed Kennedy" or are they going to resent the abuse of Sirhan (et al) in this manner. I am not the least surprised to find out that actually most people tolerate or condone the use of MK stooges as "weapons", provided it is not one of their dear ones (or tribe or what not). SO, I am not sure the scoop is so much of concern to the PTB or whoever does those things.

If I can imagine such a revelation in Israel, the big noise would be over the obvious national reasons, like "why did you let country x abuse "our" people" and so forth, but the act itself will not rock the boat, at least not here, in Israel, where life is cheap.

The reactions I am getting from those who do believe me, are very reserved and cynical, and always finding justifications for the "system" (they had no choice, people die in wars, or comparisons to a host of other horrible situations). The only "hoo hah" will be, in Israel, the identity of the involved, and especially the NON military ones, who have a prestige and will be exposed as pigs/sadists/perverts/corrupt. But after we have been through Katzav, Olmert, Etc., there's enough preparation for the grand betrayals or exotic nature, such as MK torture.

The trend in Israel at least would be to strive to reframe it as excessive "drafting" powers, and of course there is the sex offense element, which is always a hot issue. The pigs here have gotten used to slavery, of various forms, but mostly sexual, and its time to bring up the mirror to their faces.





lupercal wrote:^ yeah I meant to bold the part about Rathke. Always a helpful friend to shuttle the patsies around. I'm surprised Sirhan has made it this far but if he keeps remembering stuff like this he won't make it much further I'm afraid. And I'd be very surprised if they ever let him out on parole. Ya never know but frankly I don't think he has a chance in hell.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby lupercal » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:55 am

hava1 wrote:I am not sure what is the gist of the matter with Sirhan, are people going to be upset about "who killed Kennedy" or are they going to resent the abuse of Sirhan (et al) in this manner. I am not the least surprised to find out that actually most people tolerate or condone the use of MK stooges as "weapons", provided it is not one of their dear ones (or tribe or what not). SO, I am not sure the scoop is so much of concern to the PTB or whoever does those things.

The reason Sirhan won't get out is because the people who wanted RFK dead are still profiting from his death and would suffer from being exposed, and likewise the repressive and ideological state apparatuses that greased the skids, namely the CIA, LAPD, LA Times, TV networks, expert witnesses etc etc etc would suffer from being exposed as the rats they are.

So they'll do what they need to do. For example, just this month some notes purportedly by Sirhan that weren't introduced in the trial came to light to "suggest that his behavior was calculated," and I imagine there's lots more where that came from:

Handwritten notes by Robert F. Kennedy assassin Sirhan Sirhan shed new light on killer
By Bob Pool, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer, April 7, 2011, 7:52 a.m.

Last month his lawyer tried to convince a parole board that Sirhan Sirhan was a brainwashed hit man when he gunned down Sen. Robert F. Kennedy at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles in 1968.

But handwritten notes purportedly from Sirhan, kept for 42 years by a Century City business executive, suggest that his behavior was calculated and controlled as he waited to shoot the presidential candidate in the hotel's kitchen pantry area.

Michael McCowan was an investigator and the youngest member of Sirhan's defense team in 1969 when the accused assassin wrote the narrative of his visit to a target practice range and his later election-night trip to the hotel trip on a legal notepad.

"He wrote it right in front of me," said McCowan, now 78. Sirhan signed a second statement giving McCowan the rights to the documents, which next week will be sold by a Brentwood auction house.


In March, Sirhan appeared before a parole board for his 14th hearing since his conviction in May 1969.

The lawyer currently representing Sirhan suggested he was "manipulated" and "set up" and did not act alone when Kennedy was shot.

William Pepper, who could not be reached Wednesday for comment at his New York office, said Sirhan did not remember the shooting because he was "hypno-programmed" to kill Kennedy.

McCowan disagrees. "It never seemed to me to be a conspiracy. He wanted to be a martyr for the Palestinian cause," he said of Sirhan.

"Sirhan's not stupid. In his 10th-grade history book from his high school in Pasadena he'd underlined the assassination of President McKinley and on the next page of Archduke Ferdinand."

Sirhan had then written words to the effect that there would be many more such assassinations, McCowan said. "I think he wanted to be a martyr. To me, he was the first terrorist," he said.


Before volunteering for Sirhan's defense team, McCowan had been a Los Angeles police officer and earned his law degree. He offered to help defense lawyers "because everybody's entitled to a defense, to their day in court," as he put it Wednesday.

Along with the handwritten narrative, materials being sold in the online auction include a telegram from the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, the killer of President John F. Kennedy, to Sirhan's mother, Mary Sirhan. "Please accept my sincerest and deepest sympathy," Marguerite Oswald wrote in 1968.

Many of those involved with Sirhan's trial are dead. McCowan is the last survivor from the defense team.

In the trial's closing arguments, Sirhan lawyer Grant Cooper acknowledged that "we are not here to free a guilty man. He is guilty of having killed Sen. Robert F. Kennedy."

Sirhan was incapable of premeditation, added another of his lawyers, Russell Parsons, who praised the testimony of psychiatrists and psychologists who labeled Sirhan as a paranoid schizophrenic.

Prosecutor Lynn Compton, a chief deputy district attorney, argued that the psychiactric expertise had "highly overcomplicated" the case. One psychologist had testified that Sirhan had been in some sort of hypnotic trance when he shot Kennedy.

Sirhan, now 66 and serving a life sentence, was denied parole at last month's hearing. Deputy Dist. Atty. David Dahle, who represented prosecutors at the hearing, was out of town and could not be reached for comment Wednesday.

But Sandi Gibbons, a spokeswoman for his office, was a news reporter in 1968 who saw Kennedy moments before he was killed and then covered Sirhan's trial.

She said the auction-bound narrative was never introduced as evidence. "Sirhan had a diminished-capacity defense," Gibbons said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/la-me-sirha ... 3027.story

.................

Some "defense."
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby hava1 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:14 am

These are reasons besides the point of MK brainwashing...I cannot argue about the US political cliamte/system, I take your word. I meant that the MK mechanism might be exposed, and in fact he got so far, and this is not coincidence or sloppiness on behalf of the state. He was allowed to go forth, and prior to that, it was this canadian trauma doctor that was allowed to claim on his behalf that he was brainwashed. All of this is calculated exposure.

AS for who done it, and what the american politics are about it, I am really the last person to comment. I have no clue. But the two issues are not identical, and so he can be exposed as "proxy" but the real senders will not be exposed, and so forth. Or he might not be released but some of his argument was sent out there...

Its a precise copy of what we have here with Amir, the assassin of Rabin and it looks like it came from the same factory. IMHO the case of Vanunu is similar, except he is charged with something else, not murder. They all have "defense" lawyers...:) but now that I see the whole picture, it could not be any different. The lawyers are there to make it all appear nice, but sometimes they are able to get some small relief for the client, in terms of conditions, treatment and so forth. So it does matter who is assigned the job ...

All I said was that the mechanism is close to the surface of public exposure, and for a reason.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby lupercal » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:12 am

All I said was that the mechanism is close to the surface of public exposure, and for a reason.

I suppose that's possible, but I have to say, in Sirhan's case at least, it seems to me unlikely. My guess is it's a case of having more skeletons in the closet than they have closet, although the fact that he's still around and still talking when it would be so easy to make him go away does raise the question. But there's also the political climate (Obama in DC, Jerry Brown in Sacto), Sirhan's personality, the passage of several decades and pure dumb luck to consider, though I wouldn't rule your theory out.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby LilyPatToo » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:13 pm

Julia W wrote:Sirhan maintained in the hypnotic interviews that the mystery girl touched him or "pinched" him on the shoulder just before he fired then spun him around to see people coming through the pantry door.

Just a note about a detail that jumped out at me: That touch on the shoulder is a very real programming trigger, one that I think is completely unknown to most people, since it's such an ordinary gesture. Once, I got to watch as it was used by a scientist from a local national lab on a malfunctioning test subject he had living with him at the time. I finally got to see what happened to the programmed person who received it. He kept us strictly apart, but she seized a moment at a party to blurt out a rushed account of a terrible rape/assault she'd survived. When his hand came down on her shoulder, she just switched off--in mid-sentence--and allowed him to lead her away. He tried the same thing on me in a public confrontation years later, but I kept side-stepping and evading that hand even though I knew how bizarre it must have looked to passers-by :oops: We'd been programmed to switch to a deeply dissociated state--I think of it as shifting to "neutral gear"--upon feeling that touch, but any response could be hypnotically linked to the touch. Hearing Sirhan describe it makes me even more convinced that he was one of us--but possibly one selected as an adult subject, instead of primed from early childhood.

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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby alwyn » Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:53 pm

lupercal wrote:^ one thing we do know is that Manson didn’t commit these murders, because he wasn’t there. Then there’s the question of motive which I won’t go into as I’ve never made much of a study of this case but from what I recall the official Bugliosi-established motive barely rises above serial-killer craziness – something about a recording career? And I don’t know the figures you’re referring to but I have to say that a 'voice in the desert' leading to the killers sounds about as plausible as mobile bio-weapons labs in Iraq.


Not trying to jack the thread, although I think the original foray was in regards to programmed killers, and whether there was a legal defense. There is.

Crockett was (and is) a mystic. If you knew him, you would know the voice was not far fetched at all. He was the one that stumbled across the boys living at Barker's ranch in Goler Canyon, outside Shosone. Charlie tried to kill him, but couldn't, and Crockett, when he took Brooks and little Paul and Juan and walked across death valley to Shoshone to the sherrif there started the whole ball rolling as far as bringing Charlie to justice. Brooks Poston was just a grunt (who played great guitar) in Charlies 'army'. Paul WAtkins was one of Charlie's captains. It was Crockett, due to his expertise in 'intent' who introduced the fact that the killers were programmed. It is because this was established as a legal precedent that Charlie is in jail, where he needs to be. He was a rogue killer, and he really liked getting people to do his dirty work. He was all about control of other people's impulses. Maybe the CIA was jealous.

I studied with Crockett for about 10 years. He was one of those really rare people who could work what looked like magic. He used his encounter with Charlie as the basis of demonstrating much of his technique, so I know the stories inside out. I lived with Brooks Poston for about three years. Paul Watkins died from cancer a few years ago. Brooks is still alive. Haven't heard from or about Juan in years.

Oddly enough, I can not, at this point, be hypnotized. Crockett did good work.
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Re: Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing

Postby 8bitagent » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:57 pm

The "note" proves Sirhan Sirhan was calculating, according to that report? It's called automatic writing, and even after he was put in prison he still had occasional bursts of it from his programming.

The verbally abusive coercion of the young woman who spoke out on seeing the polka dot woman and her side agent saying "we killed kennedy" as well as witnesses who also saw her there next to Sirhan should be another indication. How come they never produced the woman to say "see, she's just a normal person"? This is like when those Ryazan citizens in Russia and a few cops caught "Chechen terrorists" planting a fourth bomb to blow up a large apartment complex in 1999, who turned out to be Russian FSB intelligence agents. Never heard or saw from those agents again.

It's like Posner and the whole cottage industry of "reclaimig JFK to point back to Oswald" writers all claim Jack Ruby acted alone in killing LHO, had zero ties to the mob or police, etc. "Oswald allegedly fired a test shot the night before busting out someone's living room window, therefore he musta acted alone and with malice forethought!"
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