Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:43 am

norton ash wrote:your metaphor?

That the settlers were unprepared for the ancient evil of North America like the 'drunken red indians' were unprepared for alcohol. That the settlers couldn't enjoy the psychic terror quite as much as we might have, had it been more like the 'relaxing effects of alcohol' experience those lucky red indians got.


More of a simile, I'd have thought. Anyway one doesn't enjoy psychological terror, one has ones psyche warped into a murderous characature of humanity by it. Booze, on the other hand, just makes you into a zoned out degenerate, which is less harmful to the people around you.

Too many people in jail tonight in this frozen place of dead roads, of all colours, thanks to the relaxing effects of generations of alcohol. Lots of little bones in the ground too. Rising screams in black, tangled winter woods and fields of ice that Lovecraft never heard.

I've always thought that America, a name I believe Lovecraft links to the ancient pagan deity Amaracu, is inherently evil, that anyone setting foot there should abandon all hope and save his soul by fleeing into the safety of death. Canada too.


Or we could just relax and have a drink. There's a Lovecraftian scene very likely going on under a bridge a few blocks from here. I'll introduce you.


I don't drink, I'm afraid.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:13 am

Stephen Morgan wrote:Booze, on the other hand, just makes you into a zoned out degenerate, which is less harmful to the people around you.

....

I don't drink, I'm afraid.


You obviously never saw many drunk aggro violent bastards either. (And what are you afraid of just out of interest :P ?)

Stephen Morgan wrote:...but I fail to see any other grounds this thread may have produced for labelling me in any way anti-female.

It seems that anything I say which one of the local feminist contingent disagree with, or simply finds distasteful, like the simple fact that only two women were burned in England which makes woman-burning an unlikely ploy to drive a capitalist usurpation of traditional female roles, gets twisted into me saying "women are all evil".


Although you have really only got yourself to blame for that last para, cos frankly heaps of the things you said here over time have been at the least, provocative, in this thread thats pretty true.

A couple of points tho - traditional "peasant" practices often called witchcraft, and kind of typified by "Granny Weatherwax" didn't exist? And were never persecuted? And de Molay was a murderous child rapist, and all of that had nothing to do with internal Catholic politics at all?
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Project Willow » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:07 am

Here's what Stephen says about the subject on one of his many blogs:

If witches or diviners, perjurers or morth-workers, or foul, defiled, notorious adulteresses, be found anywhere within the land; let them be driven from the country, and the people cleansed, or let them totally perish within the country, unless they desist, and the more deeply make bot.
-- Doom of King Alfred

Freud, not the current scion of the family Matthew Freud, member of the Murdoch clan and PR guru, but the more famous Sigmund - he came acroos certain things in his research, things we shouldn't normally trust but for the circumstantial confirmation offered by the other things of which we know. He regarded the reports of his sexually disturbed patients, those who reported collective sexual trauma, to be similar to the medieval reports of witch covens. This is as good a starting point as any.

My position is that the witch hunts were not persecuting unpopular old biddies, but were a legitimate attempt by the commonwealth of the people to rid itself of the plague of evil occultism. The scarlet thread of murder winds through history from that day to this, from the earliest past of human sacrifice of the ziggurats of Sumer to the blood drinking neophytes of the Skull and Bones cult.


I do believe I see a pattern here, and I cannot know of course, but it looks to me like you're blaming women for ritual abuse-torture, which ironically and in my opinion is in stark contrast to yours, mirrors what happened with the witch hunts. I hate to tell you this Stephen, but the overwhelming majority of survivors who are activists against RA and SRA are female, and the overriding majority of people who have been able to share their experiences are female and experienced those abusive occult groups as patriarchal, not matriarchal. I don't discount the possibility that there may be matriarchal groups operating and perpetrating organized extreme abuse upon kids, but this is not the norm. Regardless, and I am just going to state this as a hypothetical because I have no personal knowledge about you, but making generalizations about the condition of women, the REAL condition of women in society as some sort of salve for personal abuse experiences serves nothing but to wrongly inflict pain upon others. If you're inflicting pain upon others, especially survivors of similar horrors, in effect you're doing the work of perps. There's a saying in the 'hood in the US: "If you're dissin' the sistas, you ain't fightin' the power."

I experience your denial of my reality as a female in this society as an assault, and I'm not even taking into account my experience of being raised in a patriarchal satanist cult, I'm talking about the features and beliefs of that cult that are reflected in wider society, the beliefs and features that you deny. I don't doubt that other female survivors and potential members of this board may experience it the same way. I can't imagine the number of others who experience your hate speech as a potential physical threat, after all, most don't know where you live.

In my opinion, you've gone astray, you are far off the path. That's all I am going to say on the matter except that if my friends here at RI continue to enable you by providing an open forum for your hatred, I will have to consider that they too have left the path that they profess to follow.


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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:17 am

Joe Hillshoist wrote:You obviously never saw many drunk aggro violent bastards either. (And what are you afraid of just out of interest :P ?)


I wouldn't want to become violent, would I?

A couple of points tho - traditional "peasant" practices often called witchcraft, and kind of typified by "Granny Weatherwax" didn't exist? And were never persecuted?


Often called witchcraft by who? What neo-pagans claim was seen as witchcraft and what contemporaries saw as witchcraft are different things.

So, not never, but not generally the case.

And de Molay was a murderous child rapist, and all of that had nothing to do with internal Catholic politics at all?


The fact his order had been allowed to go so wrong for so long was certainly a function of Catholic politics. When they lost power and influence they were done away with by those more powerful than themselves.

blanc wrote:Unrelated to that observation, a remark about the children need fathers position. I think children need stable contact with at best several or many adults, and our society denies them this most of the time, disrupting wider families as well as the nuclear family. I wish I did not know of cases where the movement to consolidate or improve the rights of access for fathers in divorce cases has been hijacked by abusers but I do.


I could equally point out cases where the presumption of maternal custody has allowed sole custody to be gained by abusive mothers. Of course, you only looks at it from the other side.

SM's sometimes enthusiastic support of this cause discomforts me, because he has seemed to be unaware of the possibility. Protection for children, all children, irrespective of who their father is, is bound up with the misogynistic aspects of society. Restore rights to children, I think maybe the rest would follow.


Not restore, for children have never had many rights. Imbue. Of course one of the rights children should have is the right to a relationship with both of their parents.

At the moment, financially contributing adults want to be assured that their support is largely going to their own children. I don't know how we get from this position, seen as natural, to the position of ensuring that any and every child has what he/she needs.


Through a centralised, tax funded system which ensures that all children have at least a certain minimum level of provision, which would then replace the child support system which would placate the Choice 4 Men group, who are quite right, and stop the only remaining case of debt-imprisonment, that of debtors for child support being incarcerated for being unable to pay what the courts have determined to be their obligation.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:21 am

Project Willow wrote:I do believe I see a pattern here, and I cannot know of course, but it looks to me like you're blaming women for ritual abuse-torture,


I am, quite openly, linking the sex-and-death, murder-and-magic cults of various historical periods with those of today. Not women, as those groups have never been entirely female.

which ironically and in my opinion is in stark contrast to yours, mirrors what happened with the witch hunts. I hate to tell you this Stephen, but the overwhelming majority of survivors who are activists against RA and SRA are female, and the overriding majority of people who have been able to share their experiences are female and experienced those abusive occult groups as patriarchal, not matriarchal.


Of course, that would be the experience of anyone in contact with the most prolific abusers. What the cults, in my view, present as an outward facade is that of matriarchalism, which probably forms a key part of their dogma. I refer, for example, to the position allegedly occupied by Arizona Wilder. In actual practice the controlling core is made up of men, whose familiar victims (those victimised personally, that is, rather than through lackeys, societal structures and so forth) are mostly women.

I don't discount the possibility that there may be matriarchal groups operating and perpetrating organized extreme abuse upon kids, but this is not the norm. Regardless, and I am just going to state this as a hypothetical because I have no personal knowledge about you, but making generalizations about the condition of women, the REAL condition of women in society as some sort of salve for personal abuse experiences serves nothing but to wrongly inflict pain upon others. If you're inflicting pain upon others, especially survivors of similar horrors, in effect you're doing the work of perps.


I'm not sure what generalisations you're referring to. Those about women not being an oppressed group? It's true. I don't offer it as a salve to abuse survivors, I merely observe that it is the case. No doubt you don't offer the allegation of patriarchy as a way to make men who get gang-raped in prison feel better about themselves.

There's a saying in the 'hood in the US: "If you're dissin' the sistas, you ain't fightin' the power."


I disagree with the honourable member for Compton south.

I experience your denial of my reality as a female in this society as an assault,


I don't know what denying your reality means, I merely state the facts as I see them. You being an oppressed individual doesn't make your group an oppressed one, only you. Abuse survivors may be an oppressed group, current abuse victims obviously are. Women, by contrast, are not.

and I'm not even taking into account my experience of being raised in a patriarchal satanist cult, I'm talking about the features and beliefs of that cult that are reflected in wider society, the beliefs and features that you deny. I don't doubt that other female survivors and potential members of this board may experience it the same way. I can't imagine the number of others who experience your hate speech as a potential physical threat, after all, most don't know where you live.


I'm not a violent man. If I was I wouldn't hit women, at least not unless they were bigger than me. There's no fun in fighting with people weaker than yourself. Obviously, I'd need a good reason too, I don't just go around thumping giants.

I don't suppose it would help to say I consider groundless allegations that I am some sort of debased predator to be "an assault", or that I experience them as such, but it remains the case.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Sounder » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:49 am

It may be that Stephen conflates ‘enthusiasm’, and/or longing for a direct connection to Source with evil.
How is it that the rebellion, which abusive authority structures generate, can be seen as inherently ‘evil’?

Some of the ‘rebels’ were bad people as are some orthodox religious representatives, but that does not allow one to say that either being a rebel or being orthodox is bad in itself.

And Jiminy Crickets, how are the threats of damnation for disagreements (coming from orthodoxy), any less some kind of ‘witchcraft’ than are the influence peddling efforts of one kind or another of reformer.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:09 am

Sounder wrote:It may be that Stephen conflates ‘enthusiasm’, and/or longing for a direct connection to Source with evil.
How is it that the rebellion, which abusive authority structures generate, can be seen as inherently ‘evil’?

Some of the ‘rebels’ were bad people as are some orthodox religious representatives, but that does not allow one to say that either being a rebel or being orthodox is bad in itself.

And Jiminy Crickets, how are the threats of damnation for disagreements (coming from orthodoxy), any less some kind of ‘witchcraft’ than are the influence peddling efforts of one kind or another of reformer.


I was just going to pop in and make a similar point. There is a lot of speculation that the Crusades and similar movements were an attempt to stifle the common people's knowledge and understanding of the natural world and one of the methods used was to label this sort of thing as 'black magic.' A lot of the history that has been written about the period is revisionist (obviously) - it doesn't spell out that midwifery, shamanism, etc were helpful to communities, it tars them all with the same brush as 'witchcraft'
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby crikkett » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:39 am

Project Willow wrote:Here's what Stephen says about the subject on one of his many blogs:

If witches or diviners, perjurers or morth-workers, or foul, defiled, notorious adulteresses, be found anywhere within the land; let them be driven from the country, and the people cleansed, or let them totally perish within the country, unless they desist, and the more deeply make bot.
-- Doom of King Alfred

Freud, not the current scion of the family Matthew Freud, member of the Murdoch clan and PR guru, but the more famous Sigmund - he came acroos certain things in his research, things we shouldn't normally trust but for the circumstantial confirmation offered by the other things of which we know. He regarded the reports of his sexually disturbed patients, those who reported collective sexual trauma, to be similar to the medieval reports of witch covens. This is as good a starting point as any.

My position is that the witch hunts were not persecuting unpopular old biddies, but were a legitimate attempt by the commonwealth of the people to rid itself of the plague of evil occultism. The scarlet thread of murder winds through history from that day to this, from the earliest past of human sacrifice of the ziggurats of Sumer to the blood drinking neophytes of the Skull and Bones cult.


More on Stephen:

Current blog:
http://slackbob.blogspot.com/

Other blogs:
http://dreameroftheday.blogspot.com/
http://habakukofice.blogspot.com/
http://shaverania.blogspot.com/
http://tony-broke.blogspot.com/
http://bon-accordian.blogspot.com/

http://newdealforyounguns.blogspot.com/

My Pages

* My Flickr Site
* Feminism and the Illuminati
* Woman, Doorway to the Devil
* Feminism, Statistics and the F4J Conspiracy
* Nazism, Feminism and Occultism - Triune Tools of Satan
* Culture War, Class War
* The Truth About Women's Shelters
* A Secret History
* Common Sense
* Secret Operations
* The Wiles of Satan
* Miscellaneous
* Quotes
* Lists
* More Links

Feminism

* 21 indicators of systemic discrimination against men
* American Woman Suck
* blog: Counter Feminist
* blog: Duke Rape
* blog: Duncan Idaho
* blog: FredX
* blog: Heretical Sex
* blog: Pete Patriarch
* Brainwashing on a massive scale
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* Thinkbomb
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* UK Men's and Fathers Rights
* Women who rape
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This does not paint a pretty picture of you, Stephen.
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby crikkett » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:43 am

...edited for TMI, sorry....
Last edited by crikkett on Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby sunny » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:09 pm

Fantastic OP AD! Thanks so much.

At first I thought it was odd for a Marxist to claim that feudalism, a form of slavery, was an early step toward communism that was derailed by 'primitive accumulation', but I realized Federico is making a distinction between the fuedal system and the communities within the system. I've no doubt that the suppression of the widespread peasant revolts, often led by women, were a major motivator of the Inquisition.


Stephen Morgan wrote:And the witches, obviously, were a malicious and murderous cult


:lol: Err, I think this characterization applies more to the side of the equation who were killing hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of people using horrifically barbarous methods to terrify the survivors into submitting to a particular point of view and way of living.
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:53 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:And the witches, obviously, were a malicious and murderous cult


:lol: Err, I think this characterization applies more to the side of the equation who were killing hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of people using horrifically barbarous methods to terrify the survivors into submitting to a particular point of view and way of living.


Anyone favouring the death penalty is a barbarian. Anyone carrying it out is a murderer. That doesn't mean there were no other murderous conspiracies going on at the same time in conflict with each other.

As to numbers, I refer you here:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/witches.shtml
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby sunny » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:25 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:Anyone favouring the death penalty is a barbarian. Anyone carrying it out is a murderer.


I agree with you, but the accused witches weren't the ones carrying out the death penalty the Inquisitors were.


Stephen Morgan wrote:That doesn't mean there were no other murderous conspiracies going on at the same time in conflict with each other


I'm sure this is true and maybe, statistacally speaking, some of the accused witches actually did kill someone but there is no proof other than superstitious accusations and confessions under torture that as a group the witches routinely engaged in malicious rituals with murderous intent.

I'm not saying that no medieval witches/sorcerers practiced black magic. This is obviously not the case, but a clear distinction can be made between natural and demonic magic and given the disinterested anecdotal history of 'wise women' who benefitted their communities, statistically speaking most of the burned witches probably practiced the natural kind. That is, if they were witches at all.
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:35 pm

sunny wrote:I agree with you, but the accused witches weren't the ones carrying out the death penalty the Inquisitors were.


Of course. Well, in England it was civil prosecutors because the Inquisition were Catholics.

I'm sure this is true and maybe, statistacally speaking, some of the accused witches actually did kill someone but there is no proof other than superstitious accusations and confessions under torture that as a group the witches routinely engaged in malicious rituals with murderous intent.


You are very quick to adjudge these ancestors of ours to be primitives, I'm not. Torture was rarely if ever practiced on accused witches in England, at least to anything greater than Gene Hunt levels. Nor do I think the people back then were any more superstitious than us. I have faith that the provision of a jury trial was proof enough against wrongful accusation. Not proof enough to ensure there were no miscarriages of justice, but to ensure that most of the convicted were guilty.

I'm not saying that no medieval witches/sorcerers practiced black magic. This is obviously not the case, but a clear distinction can be made between natural and demonic magic and given the disinterested anecdotal history of 'wise women' who benefitted their communities, statistically speaking most of the burned witches probably practiced the natural kind. That is, if they were witches at all.


Your assumption is that kindly old local women were regularly accused of capital crimes the convicted by a jury, with both the jury and the accusers drawn from their own community. Any benefits they provided would therefore obviously have not been beneficial enough to endear them to the locals. Besides, as the statistics show, men were executed for witchcraft, as were young women, occasional rich women, married and unmarried, and so on. There's no reason to believe they were at all likely to be "wise women", especially the men.

We have confessions obtained without coercion, confessions obtained with coercion, third party witnesses, victim statements, and convictions delivered by juries less inclined to a mindless trust in authority than those we have today. Physical evidence didn't really appear in courts back then. A quite conclusive case for the existence of witches. OF course the crimes those executed were accused of were rarely simple sorcery, more often things like attempted murder through sorcery, poisoning of men and beasts, that sort of thing. The Madame du Montesspan case was also known as the Affair of the Poisons. My belief is that the more mysterious elements, such as fornicating with satan were also accurate confessions, but probably heavily influenced by hallucinogens, rather than accounts of literal happenings.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby 82_28 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:22 pm

Here's some directed advertising, meme association from 2/21/1900 in the Seattle Times archives:

Image

Image
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Who Were the Witches? – Patriarchal Terror & Capitalism

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:01 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:Torture was rarely if ever practiced on accused witches in England, at least to anything greater than Gene Hunt levels.


Given he is/was some sort of avatar of Nyarlotep thats hardly a ringing endorsement.

Just so everyone here is clear - Stevo you are talking about what happened in England wrt witch trials yeah, not anywhere else in the world.

So what you are saying may not apply to Europe cos you haven't done the same levels of research/aren't as familiar?

Stephen Morgan wrote:I wouldn't want to become violent, would I?


No, but you said grog turns people a certain way, and it doesn't. What you said about grog could be applied to pot, but not to itself. Minor point sure but...

So, not never, but not generally the case. (about "Granny Weatherwax archetypes)


Ok fair enough. I was about to say something but forgot it. If I remember I'll get back to you.

And de Molay was a murderous child rapist, and all of that had nothing to do with internal Catholic politics at all?


The fact his order had been allowed to go so wrong for so long was certainly a function of Catholic politics. When they lost power and influence they were done away with by those more powerful than themselves.

Had it been allowed to go so wrong? Specific sources, preferably Primary ones would help clear that up. 5 years before de Molay was burned the Papacy moved to Southern France, it was the Pope who moved that burned him, and at the time there were all sorts of political machinations between the French Crown and the pope over who had control of secular matters in the HRE. The pope who moved the Curia was the same one who burned Templers and he (Clement v)was basically a puppet of the French King Phillip the intraveneus. Given all that there are still no charges against de Molay and his order of child rape or child sacrifice to the devil that I have ever heard of.

Of course the fact that they were creditors to Phil iv and the destruction of the order effectively cancelled the debt had nothing to do with their destruction. It was all the Satanism obviously.
Joe Hillshoist
 
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