What constitutes Misogyny?

[Canadian_watcher]

...not quite as unpleasant as what I might expect from Yale in fact,

what is more unpleasant than a gang of men yelling about No means yes and yes means anal.. and then a lot of them going around and acting on that?

but in concrete terms it boils down to some women being made to feel uncomfortable but more than welcome to complain.

Yes, being sexually violated and abused and shamed and then being repudiated by the governing bodies you've been told to trust is 'uncomfortable' - and they are 'welcome to complain' but not to expect remedy. Uncomfortable.. what a stupid, worthless POS thing to say. I suppose it was "uncomfortable" to be Jewish in Germany for a while there, too.

What you have just said above is vile and hateful. It is VILE and hateful.

I mean, there's a women's centre and they try to have people punished for being objectionable, but non-criminal.

Non criminal because of misogyny. If it weren't for endemic, internalised misogyny this sort of thing would be criminal.

And there are resources available to victims of sexual misconduct, but maybe not enough advertising to make people aware.

You are wrong. I'd say there's plenty of 'advertising' - things like word of mouth that if you report you just get shit on and laughed at and there is no justice. Word of mouth is the most powerful form of advertising, isn't that what the a-hole marketing geniuses will tell you?

And there are proper protections, possibly even excessive protections in place for alleged rape victims

You are wrong.

but the girls don't have enough confidence in them..

there's the power of word of mouth advertising for you.

Unless you are willing to concede these points, don't bother responding. There's no use in it, for I will never be convinced otherwise about anything I've said above, and I've already told you that I will not debate you. This isn't a debate. This is correcting, for the record, your egregious and off-hand MISOGYNY.

[Stephen Morgan]

...not quite as unpleasant as what I might expect from Yale in fact,

what is more unpleasant than a gang of men yelling about No means yes and yes means anal.. and then a lot of them going around and acting on that?

If a load of them had been going around acting on it, that would have been more unpleasant.

but in concrete terms it boils down to some women being made to feel uncomfortable but more than welcome to complain.

Yes, being sexually violated and abused and shamed and then being repudiated by the governing bodies you've been told to trust is 'uncomfortable' - and they are 'welcome to complain' but not to expect remedy. Uncomfortable.. what a stupid, worthless POS thing to say. I suppose it was "uncomfortable" to be Jewish in Germany for a while there, too.

What you have just said above is vile and hateful. It is VILE and hateful.

I was referring to the "sexual harassment", in that particular case the complaint was by a woman offended by the shouting in front of the Women's Centre. She was uncomfortable, so she went to the back door. She and her supporters filed an official complaint, the university came down on the side of freedom of speech.

And when you denounce a description of men as basically a bunch of fucking rapists, then I'll take seriously what you think is a POS thing to say. What is vile and hateful.

I mean, there's a women's centre and they try to have people punished for being objectionable, but non-criminal.

Non criminal because of misogyny. If it weren't for endemic, internalised misogyny this sort of thing would be criminal.

I don't like people shouting that sort of slogan, but if misogyny is what's keeping it legal you can now feel free to call me a misogynist.

And there are resources available to victims of sexual misconduct, but maybe not enough advertising to make people aware.

You are wrong. I'd say there's plenty of 'advertising' - things like word of mouth that if you report you just get shit on and laughed at and there is no justice. Word of mouth is the most powerful form of advertising, isn't that what the a-hole marketing geniuses will tell you?

Did you actually read the article I was responding to? It said there were complaints about the level of awareness of services available on campus referring to sex crimes, harassment, whatever. The article was complaining that after a review Yale had decided they were doing enough to raise awareness of services already and therefore didn't intend to make any changes. This is what barracuda's article considered a grievance.

And there are proper protections, possibly even excessive protections in place for alleged rape victims

You are wrong.

Possibly, but I'm going by the article. It specifically lists the lack of confidence as a grievance, and if there was a shortage of protections I'm sure that would be there instead, as it would better make their point.

but the girls don't have enough confidence in them..

there's the power of word of mouth advertising for you.

Unless you are willing to concede these points, don't bother responding. There's no use in it, for I will never be convinced otherwise about anything I've said above, and I've already told you that I will not debate you. This isn't a debate. This is correcting, for the record, your egregious and off-hand MISOGYNY.

I think I'll state for the record my defence of my positions.

[Canadian_watcher]

Score a point in favour of the feminist plot to waste Stephen Morgan's time!

[Searcher08]

What the fuck ever happen to the fire pit? This whole thing is starting to piss me off. Start a new RI Misogyny forum or something.


or try thinking of Jeff and just stop. He is the reason you have a voice here, if you respect him do the right thing

I agree with this 110%, SLAD In fact so much I had to make your text bigger!

The way the communication dynamics adopted in this thread have spread to the rest of the board, including The Lounge, is like the Japanese nuclear meltdown.

The toxicity is the interaction style that has arisen, which personalises all remarks and turns everything into a cycle of one the one hand calculated offence giving/receiving, pseudo-trolling, small 'p' politics, fake sincerity versus on the other low self-esteem stress responses which create blame, victimhood, distraction or ice-cold clinical detachment levels of empathy.

IMHO this area requires very careful objective consistent moderation right from the top - it would take Jeff being here and making his presence felt to act as a kind of 'moderating control rod' in this 'core'. In organisation parlance, this is about a Chairman-level, not Management-level intervention.

The fact that there are people getting some value from this thread doesn't mean it should continue in it's present form - most people on R.I. have been on threads that were firepitted or locked even when they were in 'full swing'. I think, however, the energy released from it needs to achieve a balance with the environment - it should have it's own Forum, which Jeff moderates actively and within that forum should have a Womens Only section. Again, Im looking on it from a structural and interaction point of view, not content.

[Canadian_watcher]

Searcher08 - please elucidate exactly which posts you think fit in to this category:

"The toxicity is the interaction style that has arisen, which personalises all remarks and turns everything into a cycle of one the one hand calculated offence giving/receiving, pseudo-trolling, small 'p' politics, fake sincerity versus on the other low self-esteem stress responses which create blame, victimhood, distraction or ice-cold clinical detachment levels of empathy"

This topic is important to me and to other members of the board. There are posters to it that are simply being agitators, I agree. But you want to banish it because of bad apples or because it is difficult to discuss? The correct course of action, IMHO, would be to get a little tougher on those people that are being purposefully inflammatory and whose posts are nothing but hateful/argumentative.

It really isn't difficult to pick out the difference between reasoned argument and trolling. It's like porn: hard to define but you know it when you see it.

[Stephen Morgan]

I'm almost positive that's the facile argument people use to dismiss the 1-in-4 study not the 1-in-6 study, honey. Are you sure you're not getting them mixed up?

I'll go check, I guess.

You're quite right, in that I was wrong. I was thinking of 1 in 4. I've also heard 1 in 3, 1 in 5, 1 in 7, and so forth, I've never gone through studying them all.

Not that I accept the six figure, though. One in fifteen is more in lines with what can be confirmed, and that's in America which is a violent society. More than ten times as many per capita as there are in Britain. According to official government statistics, that, so you might question it. Of course any rapes is too many rapes, but the solution is to combat violence in society, not to try to promote rape as a special case.

Also, I'm not sure how it qualifies as facile to accept a woman's word as to whether she has been raped, rather than imposing your interpretation on the events of her life. Might as well add "women are a bunch of fucking idiots" to barracuda's "men are a bunch of fucking rapists" if you're going down that road.

[Stephen Morgan]

Score a point in favour of the feminist plot to waste Stephen Morgan's time!

I need no help on that front.

[wallflower]

Jill at Feministe has a post up--her 4,234th--that Atrios at Eschaton linked to today. http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/05/02/filling-the-gaps/

It's a long post dealing with many important ideas, but among the ideas presented is the importance for online feminist collaboration requires more than "calling out" culture.

It’s also to say that we need to grow, as a community and as individuals, beyond a feminist analysis that begins and ends with call-outs and Owning Privilege (or telling other people to Own Their Privilege). Privilege analysis is crucial to feminist activism, but it isn’t activism in and of itself. If the analysis is self-flagellation in order to prove that you’re A Good _____ rather than introspection in order to actually be a better ______, it’s not even really helpful. If privilege analysis is a weapon that you wield in order to either establish yourself as superior to those who aren’t as “open” about their privilege, or that you use to beat down the perspectives and comments of a person who you believe is either not oppressed enough to deserve to engage in the conversation or isn’t letting enough blood to prove themselves worthy of engagement, it’s actively harmful.

Another point Jill makes is just how much work it is to make online communication between many to many possible.

I do hope that Canadian_Watcher is not so soured on the experience of this post to leave RI. This thread is important to me because misogyny is a critical problem that scars all of us to greater and lesser extents.

It's so true that as a white male I have privilege to which I not conscious of. But as a person I'm connected to others. In my life are women and girls who mean so much to me. The danger, disadvantage and hostility they face matters to me. First of all because I love them. Desmond Tutu's short definition of Ubuntu is: " It means that we are people through other people." As and American I can't think of a word native to American English to express the fundamental interdependence of people, nevertheless I believe Ubuntu is universal, a fact of being human. So misogyny is a serious problem not just because I love the women and girls in my life, but also because the harm affects me.

So of course as a man too often unconscious of my privilege I don't experience misogyny as women do; misogyny still affects me and not in an all together unconscious way. For example I worry about sexual assault against my teenage nieces and other teens in my sphere. I also want them to develop into the fullest expressions of themselves. I want hem to create and to accomplish. And so the little prejudices that conspire to exclude them bother me. I try to dream up ways to help them suffer the slights and go around obstacles they encounter. I try to encourage them. I'm hardly the best ally, but just as I'm for them, they're for me. I feel sure that even if there is not a good native word for our mutual interdependence we all know that concept and real and important.

This thread has touched on so many topics which might be threads of there own. I admire C_W's fortitude for sticking with this thread. Such a large commitment, such an open-ended commitment, isn't one for everyone. Really it seems too much for me. Perhaps there are some topics here at RI that should have a limited time before they are locked. Most post have a time and then fade. Some posts here are added to over the years and that's a special feature of RI I'd hate to lose.

But it does seem to me that perhaps some threads might benefit an expiration date. A person might be willing to curate and moderate a thread for a specified period of time, but not be willing to make it a career. So perhaps the lock could be used as a feature for posts, not as a punishment or signal that the thread went off the rails, but as a feature to keep the thread on topic and to limit the commitment of the person or persons tending it.

I do hope that all of use who have participated in this thread will consider some to the important themes and topics which have come up in this thread which deserve more rigorous examination and conversation. I hope this thread will encourage more threads perhaps with a more particular focus.

[Searcher08]

Searcher08 - please elucidate exactly which posts you think fit in to this category:

"The toxicity is the interaction style that has arisen, which personalises all remarks and turns everything into a cycle of one the one hand calculated offence giving/receiving, pseudo-trolling, small 'p' politics, fake sincerity versus on the other low self-esteem stress responses which create blame, victimhood, distraction or ice-cold clinical detachment levels of empathy"

I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader but self-evident all over this thread - as you yourself said "you know it when you see it".

This topic is important to me and to other members of the board. There are posters to it that are simply being agitators, I agree. But you want to banish it because of bad apples or because it is difficult to discuss? The correct course of action, IMHO, would be to get a little tougher on those people that are being purposefully inflammatory and whose posts are nothing but hateful/argumentative.

It really isn't difficult to pick out the difference between reasoned argument and trolling. It's like porn: hard to define but you know it when you see it.

You are misreading what I'm saying: I did not say the problem is that there are posters simply being agitators. Neither did I saw I want to "banish" anything. Thing is, who decides who is being hateful and disruptive? To me that is a call that in this context Jeff and only Jeff can make.

My post is to support SLAD and I'll leave it there.

[Canadian_watcher]

... as a person I'm connected to others. In my life are women and girls who mean so much to me. The danger, disadvantage and hostility they face matters to me. First of all because I love them. Desmond Tutu's short definition of Ubuntu is: " It means that we are people through other people." As and American I can't think of a word native to American English to express the fundamental interdependence of people, nevertheless I believe Ubuntu is universal, a fact of being human. So misogyny is a serious problem not just because I love the women and girls in my life, but also because the harm affects me.

So of course as a man too often unconscious of my privilege I don't experience misogyny as women do; misogyny still affects me and not in an all together unconscious way.

This! This is the jumping off point and the attitude that can make these discussions work.

Thanks wallflower for being the example to follow.

[Canadian_watcher]

Searcher08 - please elucidate exactly which posts you think fit in to this category:

"The toxicity is the interaction style that has arisen, which personalises all remarks and turns everything into a cycle of one the one hand calculated offence giving/receiving, pseudo-trolling, small 'p' politics, fake sincerity versus on the other low self-esteem stress responses which create blame, victimhood, distraction or ice-cold clinical detachment levels of empathy"

I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader but self-evident all over this thread - as you yourself said "you know it when you see it".

This topic is important to me and to other members of the board. There are posters to it that are simply being agitators, I agree. But you want to banish it because of bad apples or because it is difficult to discuss? The correct course of action, IMHO, would be to get a little tougher on those people that are being purposefully inflammatory and whose posts are nothing but hateful/argumentative.

It really isn't difficult to pick out the difference between reasoned argument and trolling. It's like porn: hard to define but you know it when you see it.

You are misreading what I'm saying: I did not say the problem is that there are posters simply being agitators. Neither did I saw I want to "banish" anything. Thing is, who decides who is being hateful and disruptive? To me that is a call that in this context Jeff and only Jeff can make.

My post is to support SLAD and I'll leave it there.

oh okay terrific!

[brainpanhandler]

I'm going to swear a little because I am quite over my limit, and I'm not going get to into another brekin type exchange because essentially you're making the same arguments as he and a couple of other men. I am quite sick and tired.

Well that's one of the real ironies in all this for me. This is a message board. Words on a screen. Thoughts. I generally am pretty ignorant about members' gender. We should be able to experience this place in a more similar way than elsewhere.

It's not an irony, it's a fucking fact of life. Women face discrimination and differential treatment in EVERY VENUE in life. Sexism is woven into the fabric and language of our culture, we are all immersed in it. You're approaching this as if you're on an equal footing with women on this question and you're not. As a male you gain privileges from the inequality of our culture, so you are blind to the ways this inequality is expressed, including the ways it is expressed here. You're arguing that you are better able to see and identify sexism than a woman. Maddy is the authority on when she's been mistreated, NOT YOU. Women are the authorities on when they're being mistreated, NOT YOU.

Way beyond "strong language" and largely why I am even going to all the trouble of responding. Gross hyperbole.

Thank you for your care and concern, that you would choose to argue with me rather than let my strong words move you to some sort of empathic response proves my view completely. I'm tired of being violated for talking about how I've been violated.

I'm guessing you don't really want a response from me. So you can just consider this a polite acknowledgement that I read your response.

[Burnt Hill]

... as a person I'm connected to others. In my life are women and girls who mean so much to me. The danger, disadvantage and hostility they face matters to me. First of all because I love them. Desmond Tutu's short definition of Ubuntu is: " It means that we are people through other people." As and American I can't think of a word native to American English to express the fundamental interdependence of people, nevertheless I believe Ubuntu is universal, a fact of being human. So misogyny is a serious problem not just because I love the women and girls in my life, but also because the harm affects me.

So of course as a man too often unconscious of my privilege I don't experience misogyny as women do; misogyny still affects me and not in an all together unconscious way.

This! This is the jumping off point and the attitude that can make these discussions work.

Thanks wallflower for being the example to follow.

Alright then, I feel the same as wallflower, thank you!

[Nordic]

i honestly thought the obl "news" would put this thread to bed. alas ...

[JackRiddler]

i honestly thought the obl "news" would put this thread to bed. alas ...

If you so dislike it, having made this point long ago, you could just avoid the periodic "why isn't this dead yet" post. Or even clicking on it.