Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

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Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby Nordic » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:41 am

http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2012/04/star-garden.html

An artificially excavated limestone pit in the south of France will soon host star-making technology, New Scientist reports. "If all goes well," the magazine explains, in a few year's time the pit will "rage with humanity's first self-sustaining fusion reaction, an artificial sun ten times hotter than the one that gives our planet life."

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[Image: Building the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor; ©ITER Organization].

Reaching that point, however, requires an ambitious reformatting of the entire site, seemingly the very limit of landscape architecture: a kind of concrete garden that produces stars.

As the project now stands, construction involves inserting a supergrid of rebar into the quarried pit, securing the limestone walls with concrete foundation work, then pouring seismically-stabilized plinths that will support the so-called International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (or ITER) upon completion.

Superficially—i.e. they're both in France and they both involve limestone—I'm reminded of the Crazannes Quarries project by Bernard Lassus, for which cuts, sections, "artificial rock formations," shaped cliffs, and other designed geologies were introduced into and through the side of a French road. In effect, Lassus milled a new, powder-white landscape from the limestone.

But the ITER project seems to take the ambitions of Crazannes and turn them up to a nearly overwhelming degree: using a (to be clear, all but unrelated) landscape design process to produce moments of stellar combustion on the earth. It's like an undeclared monument to Giordano Bruno—or, for that matter, to Aleister Crowley. A quarry in which we'll build stars.

In any case, nestled there in its semi-subterranean, mine-like site and buzzing inside with radiation-resistant robot elevators, each "about the size of a large bus," the ITER will recreate, again and again, "the process that powers the sun and most other stars. At extremely high temperatures, hydrogen nuclei will fuse to form helium, spitting out more energy than the process consumes, something that has never yet been achieved by a human-made device."

The photos seen here—reproduced in accordance with ITER's image-use policy—shows the site work in action: quarrying, gridding, pouring, smoothing, and stabilizing, in preparation for the birth of new heavens.

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Are these people out of their freaking MINDS?

This is an Icarus project that could destroy the entire world.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby barracuda » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:51 am

Bitchin'. We've got a gizmo like that over in Livermore, too, but "ours" uses a giant laser.

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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby Laodicean » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:55 am

Image

Spark it up!
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby Nordic » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:21 am

We've already got a star, a really nice one, safely perched right over our heads, hot enough to burn our skin, boil water, and cook our food, and these crazy motherfuckers want to make one RIGHT HERE where one tiny wrong tweak of the thermostat can TURN US ALL INTO STAR-BABY DUST??

Man really does have a death wish. Death Star for the Death Wish.
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby DrEvil » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:17 pm

This is just a bigger version of stuff we've been doing for years already. Google Tokamak.
If the engineers start wearing robot tentacles on their backs I'll start to worry. :)
And if we actually can get fusion to work properly the payoff should be pretty damn big. This is the only "free" energy tech we have that we actually know works. We understand what's happening and why, it's only a matter of making it more efficient.
And I wouldn't worry about runaway fusion reactions either. This isn't spiderman.
Of course, we could just continue burning oil and building more nuclear plants.
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby vogonpoet » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:30 pm

Unlike with fission reactors, there is no chance of a meltdown. This is a tokamak (magnetic confinement) reactor, (edit collision with DrEvil!) a basic fact oddly not mentioned in the article. Wikipedia as usual, has some actual information: (I'm quoting the rebuttal, but please feel free to study the criticisms being rebutted)
Response to criticism
Proponents believe that much of the ITER criticism is misleading and inaccurate, in particular the allegations of the experiment's "inherent danger." The stated goals for a commercial fusion power station design are that the amount of radioactive waste produced be hundreds of times less than that of a fission reactor, that it produces no long-lived radioactive waste, and that it is impossible for any fusion reactor to undergo a large-scale runaway chain reaction. This is because direct contact with the walls of the reactor would contaminate the plasma, cooling it down immediately and stopping the fusion process. Besides which, the amount of fuel planned to be contained in a fusion reactor chamber (one half gram of deuterium/tritium fuel[12]) is only enough to sustain the reaction for an hour at maximum,[39] whereas a fission reactor usually contains several years' worth of fuel.[40] In case of accident (or intentional act of terrorism) a fusion reactor releases far less radioactive pollution than an ordinary fission nuclear plant.

The biggest single question about tokamak fusion for me (after "will it ever work") is what do to with the neutron-bombarded, radioactive shielding material (the "radioactive waste"). This article on Slashdot addresses that question and many more: (I have no idea how correctly or truthfully)
MIT Fusion Researchers Answer Your Questions
When will fusion power my house (or vehicle)?

MIT Researchers: This is obviously an impossible question to answer, but we can give some thoughts about when it might happen, and why. First, the current official plan is that ITER will demonstrate net fusion gain (Q = 10, that is, ten times more fusion power out than heating power put in) in about 2028 or 2029. [...] and would be followed by (profitable, economic) commercial plants around 2050.

This seems like a long time, and it is, but it’s important to understand that this is not the only possible path. You might say that we’re not a certain number of years away from a working fusion power plant, but rather about $80-billion away

Fusion may never work, but if we are in a global energy and carbon crisis, shouldn't we be looking at it, at least? In addition to wave, solar, wind etc?
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby Nordic » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:07 am

vogonpoet wrote:Fusion may never work, but if we are in a global energy and carbon crisis, shouldn't we be looking at it, at least? In addition to wave, solar, wind etc?



I used to feel that way, but now I don't.

We're not in a global energy and carbon crisis, we're in a greed crisis.

I have come to the conclusion in my years on earth that God gave us everything we need, right here on this planet. Everything. With the proper stewardship of this sublime gift, we should find all the energy and medicines and wisdom we'll ever truly need or want. (and you can insert, for the term "God", whatever you wish, to get us to the point where we inhabit this marvelous place)

To play God is to exercise one of the fatal flaws of man: pride.

We already have a sun. We don't need to create another, just to show off. It's playing God.

Also, since this is RI, I'll hit you up with another theory.

I don't think it's an accident that a huge rise in UFO activity happened after WWII. I think that setting off nuclear explosions rips holes in the multi-dimensional time-space continuum, which is inhabited by other beings. I don't think they appreciate that too much. I think a hell of a lot of the post-WWII UFO activity was due to the fact that we were setting off nuclear bombs willy-nilly, and therefore blasting holes through God-Only-Knows-What other worlds inhabited by God-Only-Knows-Who.

I think if you're gonna set off those kinds of things, it might be wise to check with those who will be affected, but we're too damn stupid to know who that is. Otherwise you might just be whacking a hornet's nest with a broomstick.

We're like chimpanzees playing with fire in a lumberyard. And we have no freaking idea what we're really doing.
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby Marie Laveau » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:16 am

I think that setting off nuclear explosions rips holes in the multi-dimensional time-space continuum


Especially since we set off a lot of those in the upper atmosphere. I suppose, per your theory, it doesn't matter exactly where we set them off. What we did to our protective atmosphere, however, is probably not very good.

Good post, nordic. Humans really are the dumbest animals.
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby Marie Laveau » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:20 am

Laodicean wrote:Image

Spark it up!



A few weeks ago I saw a headline that read something like, 'New telescope will completely change everything we think we know about the universe.' It was in Science, or Discovery, or something.

When I see statements like the one in the photo - which sounds lovely, btw - I always think, "That's the theory this week."

We haven't clue one about anything.

Years ago there was a non sequitur cartoon: two rats were standing above a maze in lab coats with clipboards in their hands, one holding a flashlight. Inside the maze were humans sitting at desks, shopping, etc. One rat says to the other, "Watch this," and turns the flashlight on above the maze and yells, "BOOGA! BOOGA!" The caption read, "How religions are born."
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby orz » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:14 pm

Nordic wrote:This is an Icarus project that could destroy the entire world.

[citation needed]
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby Nordic » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:19 pm

orz wrote:
Nordic wrote:This is an Icarus project that could destroy the entire world.

[citation needed]



Fukishima.
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby justdrew » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:13 pm

I'd bet on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell rather than a giant tokamak.

the Polywell seems to be making steady progress despite the tiny resources devoted.
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby jfshade » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:17 pm

Nordic wrote:
I have come to the conclusion in my years on earth that God gave us everything we need, right here on this planet. Everything. With the proper stewardship of this sublime gift, we should find all the energy and medicines and wisdom we'll ever truly need or want. (and you can insert, for the term "God", whatever you wish, to get us to the point where we inhabit this marvelous place)

Considering that we wouldn't be on this planet but for "God" incinerating about 85% of all living species on it (again - not the first time!) with a cosmic fireball 65 million years ago - precipitating a species do-over that produced H. Sapiens among many others - I hesitate to conclude we've been given stewardship of anything or that our presence, well-being, etc., occupies a privileged place in the Greater Scheme of Things.

And that's precisely why it's so tragically stupid to imperil ourselves wittingly here on earth: "God" can send us another ice age or boil away the oceans with greenhouse gases. We don't need to do it! We need to find ways to live sustainably, humbly hoping for conditions to continue to be amenable to life here.

My take on fusion technology is that it's very promising. To me. it's part of that "everything" we are lucky enough to have here. The main problem is not technological; it's greed born of the pride and ignorance Nordic points to that compels certain among us to attempt to burn every ounce of petroleum, every lump of coal, every damn stick of wood, while actively suppressing the development of cleaner energy technologies.
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby DrEvil » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:07 pm

@Nordic: I agree with you that we need to be extremely careful with this, but as I said - what they are planning on doing has already been done for decades, all over the world, repeatedly. If it was going to wipe us out it would have done so a long time ago.
As far as I can see the worst case scenario is a big explosion and some dead workers, and some radioactive waste (but nothing compared to fukushima). Also, fusion is the opposite of fission, in the sense that fission goes completely haywire if you lose power/control, fusion stops when you lose power/control (the chain reaction will burn through the available fuel and then stop). I mentioned spiderman earlier because the depiction in spiderman 2 of fusion is um.. bullshit, and a lot of people seem to think that's how it really works (Not saying you do, you're clearly smarter than that :) ).
Oh, and a small personal quibble with the whole "tampering with God's creation" mindset. That implies that we are here by design, which personally I find ridiculous. It's Creationism light, if you will. But that's just me being a filthy godless heathen :P
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Re: Making a star on earth. What could possibly go wrong?

Postby Simulist » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:41 pm

I too have a similar problem with the "tampering with God's creation" mindset, and for similar reasons. Still, the idea that we live in a normally balanced natural system — balanced, in part, by natural selection and the evolutionary process — does make me think twice about the hubris of my own species.

Is our hubris part of that "normally balanced natural system" I was speaking of, or is it an aberration? And will that hubris overwhelm the system at a certain point, or will it "naturally select" our species right out of existence, or both? Or mightn't it help create something new entirely?

I think the answers to those questions remain to be seen.
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