Navigating New Identity Politics

[Jerky]

True that, old pal. Different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes. However, it seems to me that this would be an argument in favor of erring on the side of freedom in this question, as in all/most things.

If someone is willing to offer up enough money (this civilization's "survival tickets") to convince someone else to engage in the sex act with them... what business is it of ours? Especially considering the fact that the guiding principle of our society (whether you and I like it or not) continues to be the model of capitalist exchange for goods and services rendered!

Granted, I believe there should be safety nets and laws protecting people's basic freedoms. People should never be forced, or even forcefully coerced, into shedding their inhibitions. I'm a kinder, gentler hedonist... no sexual fascist, I.

However, the notion expressed above, that “offering someone money, goods or services for sex ... is a form of violence against women"... that's just pure and utter hogwash. In a polite society, it's important that people know how to take "NO" for an answer, but it's equally important that both parties be allowed to get to that point in the first place.

J.

[Heaven Swan]

Does anyone here REALLY think sex work is any more exploitative or damaging to the worker than, say, deep sea welding, crab fishing in Alaskan waters, coal mining in Black Long country, or even that most basic of laborers fall-backs, roofing?

Get real.

Sex is sex. Everybody does it. Hell, every animal on the planet above single cell self-replicators do it. It's the third most common thing for humans to do, after sleeping and eating/defecating. The fact that there's so much baggage attached to it is definitely a cultural hold-over from Victorian times (which were a lot more randy than we're led to believe, actually), and that fear/shame/loathing/control matrix type repression is more of a sign of a "sick" or disordered society than pornography or sex work will ever be.

J.

Yeah. As one john said “What’s the fuss? It’s just renting out someone else’s internal organs for a short time.”

[Heaven Swan]

If you’ve been brainwashed American Dream, and lost your critical thinking skills, get help.

To what, specifically, is this comment in reference too, HS?

Jerky

I was referring to an overall inflexibility in thinking. There’s no point in discussing things with mentally fossilized and robotic beings.

[Jerky]

Yeah. As one john said “What’s the fuss? It’s just renting out someone else’s internal organs for a short time.”

See, you might see this as a point for your side in this debate (such as it is), but it only reinforces my view. Because I've got news for you: There isn't a job under the Sun that DOESN'T put wear and tear on one internal organ or another. The heart, lungs, kidneys, back muscles, spine, joints, brain, or whatever other organ you can think of. When you work, you're renting your mind and body out for a period of time. And the BODY is made up... of organs.

So what is it, in your opinion, that makes this one, particular organ so much more important than all the others? What elevates the vagina to this special, holy status? I mean aside from the centuries of social conditioning (propaganda?) that were required to make so many people believe it to be so?

J.

[Heaven Swan]

Yeah. As one john said “What’s the fuss? It’s just renting out someone else’s internal organs for a short time.”

See, you might see this as a point for your side in this debate (such as it is), but it only reinforces my view. Because I've got news for you: There isn't a job under the Sun that DOESN'T put wear and tear on one internal organ or another. The heart, lungs, kidneys, back muscles, spine, joints, brain, or whatever other organ you can think of. When you work, you're renting your mind and body out for a period of time. And the BODY is made up... of organs.

So what is it, in your opinion, that makes this one, particular organ so much more important than all the others? What elevates the vagina to this special, holy status? I mean aside from the centuries of social conditioning (propaganda?) that were required to make so many people believe it to be so?
J.

I have nothing against you Jerky and enjoy reading your postings. But I have to say that if you can’t see the difference, I’m sorry, but I think this is one of those things that either you get it or you don’t.

I for one am looking forward to the day when a majority of men “get” what respecting the dignity of other humans is.

If you’d like to do a little research on this, I just finished watching an excellent British TV series called “Broadchurch”. In the 3rd season, in the course of a rape investigation, the difference between the worldviews of men who respect the humanity of women, and men who don’t is highlighted.

Broadchurch is a great series. I’m in awe of the artistry of the Brits and also of the fact that, judging from the stories they’re producing, their culture isn’t as debased, i.e. hasn’t fallen as far as American (and Canadian??) culture has.

I wish more Brits were posting here. We seem to have lost a lot of them.

[Jerky]

For what it's worth, I also enjoy and appreciate what you bring to RigInt. You've shared some beautiful insights that have moved me and even caused me to think in new ways about things.

I do, however, think that you have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to the whole "battle of the sexes" thing.

Women are people. And in my experience they are just as fallible and potentially wicked as men... and just as susceptible to failing to recognize or respect the humanity of their fellow human beings. For instance, not counting 9/11, the only friend I've ever had who was murdered, was murdered by a woman. She was a street punk. She and her little gang approached my friend as he was getting money from a bank machine on a downtown street. They asked for money. He said he had no change. They said "so give us 20 bucks". He told them to fuck off. She stabbed him in the heart. It took a week for him to die.

Anyway, aside from the above, women are also capable of having deeply felt and CONFLICTING opinions about sex work/workers. In fact, some of these women believe that sex work is God's work, bringing a vital human experience to people who otherwise - due to whatever circumstance, be it appearance or disability or emotional incapacity - would be forced to go without.

I haven't seen Broadchurch, but I think it's on Netflix so thank you for the recommendation.

yer old pal Jerky

[dada]

I'm not arguing with the view through the sex work-as-work lens, ol pal. As I was saying to AD earlier in the thread, I'm trying to look at this through a different lens.

We are animals, and worker bees, but we are also human. We haven't been human for nearly as long as we've been animals, of course. But there is this relatively new, human dimension to sex, which mixes with the higher human emotions of love and a sublime ecstasy that is unique to the species. Sets us apart from animals, and it can even go beyond money, or it shows promise in that direction, at least. I want to help raise that, the human sexual love that sets us apart.

Doesn't mean I think there's anything wrong with animal sex. I've thrown plenty of good money around to make some bad, dirty sex happen. So I can see quite clearly how the sex work model runs from top to bottom of society. Money controls sex, whether directly or indirectly. If you've found a partner that loves you so much that money doesn't matter, you're a lucky guy, pal.

Since I love sex, I want to free it from the constrictions that bind it. I look around, see that the repression and control of sexual energy is holding humanity back, just like you see. I just love sex so much that I want to free it from all constrictions. I want sex to have the option of being free from money. We've already got the other side: sex is money already. It's the other side that needs help. Sex empowered.

And it isn't a zero sum game. Empowered sex can still play money games, if that's where the thrill is at for ya. Again, not that I can blame you, it is for me, sometimes, as well. It's the option, the human option that needs support now. The rest is all in place.

So what do you think.

[Jerky]

What do I think? About what you wrote?

I think it's a beautiful thing, brother! Your party would get MY vote!

[dada]

Good. I won't be running for office though. I'm more a run shit from behind the scenes type. Grand wazoo.

Going to go print a newspaper now. Type at ya'll later with my sweaty, inky hands.

[Jerky]

You serious?

I think Print is the waaaaave of the future, dude!

Waka-Jawaka! I'm totally serious about this, too! Beautiful, untraceable PRINT! It's the ONLY way to samizdat!

Jerky

Good. I won't be running for office though. I'm more a run shit from behind the scenes type. Grand wazoo.

Going to go print a newspaper now. Type at ya'll later with my sweaty, inky hands.

[dada]

What are we, talking code now? Burnt weeny sandwich.

Anyway, not this newspaper. Typical small town local paper; dwindling readership, running on fumes. Weasels ripped my flesh.

And don't you think the samizdat will be run by the feds here? Come on. This is America down here. Sleep dirt

No, I'm fine right here, broadcasting live from RI whenever I feel like it. There's nothing else to do on that front. I'm no revolutionary. Not interested in 'organizing,' or 'building the movement.' Movement to where? I've already arrived.

Just a power hungry man, like all the rest, ol pal. Except I really do renounce it. I'm with women, angels, kitties. I'm on the feminine's side. Sounds corny and weak, I don't care. May be opening myself up to ridicule, so what. And yeah, I may come off dark and nasty sometimes, but that's just ancient sludge I'm purging. I'm not perfect. Yet. haha

I'm really really trying to put the fight down. We could all take a cue from 82 on this. Guy is like a pacifist. A fucking pacifist. I like to think I'm brave, courageous, even. I talk to 82, soul to soul, and I see. I'm not brave. Not like this. Being peaceful? Now that's a real test, a worthy challenge for better men. I want to call myself brave, I'll take that challenge. That's real bravery. Much respect, 82.

I know my words hit harder than my fists. So that's where I need to focus on improving. Find a better use for these morbid skills I gots. It ain't easy for me. Vistas of power spread out before me, so tempting. You must think I'm crazy.

So fuck all this internet war noise. I'm working on my stories. Getting the film shit together. Got my canon xl2, and my light n sound rigs. Not sure what I'm doing with it yet. But I got some ideas.

Well I'm drifting off topic, so I'll stop here. Enough with the psychic crusades, you know; blitzkrieg the citadels of enlightenment. Piper pulled down the sky. I'd rather pull down heaven, bring it right down here to earth. Whatever. Bongo fury

[Grizzly]

^^^
dada, you sound/read like Tom Robbins...lol

[Heaven Swan]

Yea, I like your writing too, dada, so glad you’ve been posting.

[Heaven Swan]

For what it's worth, I also enjoy and appreciate what you bring to RigInt. You've shared some beautiful insights that have moved me and even caused me to think in new ways about things.

I do, however, think that you have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to the whole "battle of the sexes" thing.

Women are people. And in my experience they are just as fallible and potentially wicked as men... and just as susceptible to failing to recognize or respect the humanity of their fellow human beings. For instance, not counting 9/11, the only friend I've ever had who was murdered, was murdered by a woman. She was a street punk. She and her little gang approached my friend as he was getting money from a bank machine on a downtown street. They asked for money. He said he had no change. They said "so give us 20 bucks". He told them to fuck off. She stabbed him in the heart. It took a week for him to die.

Anyway, aside from the above, women are also capable of having deeply felt and CONFLICTING opinions about sex work/workers. In fact, some of these women believe that sex work is God's work, bringing a vital human experience to people who otherwise - due to whatever circumstance, be it appearance or disability or emotional incapacity - would be forced to go without.

I haven't seen Broadchurch, but I think it's on Netflix so thank you for the recommendation.

yer old pal Jerky

Thanks Jerky for the thoughtful part of your response, I suspected you had it in you.

I know you didn’t ask for advice but you might want to look towards expanding that thoughtful sensitivity and do some deep observation and introspection re: knee jerk participation in the dudebro alliance to keep women down.

It may be hard to see due to ingrained habit and conditioning, but said dudebro alliance is an emanation of the Robot War People, not the caring Nature people that you seem to want to be associated with.