Navigating New Identity Politics

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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:12 pm

at least there was no MI5 propaganda was used in the making of that post.......I double checked

I don't know about "our" Facebook feed.....I don't do Facebook (just like I don't do Russian propaganda) but those guys are New Identity Politics at a protest (it was not a comment on their sexuality) so I posted the pics

this is what I was responding to I apologize for any humor injected into your morning
Trends changed and now you have to say different things to pick up chicks at protests?


Jeff's on Facebook correct?


A decade ago is was acceptable and normal to joke about transexuals


I in NO WAY was doing that ...nice of you to infer 2nd time this week :roll:

Wombaticus Rex » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:09 am wrote:SLAD, I'm talking about the other side of the front line ... you know, the only side with "chicks" to begin with. Thanks for the .jpgs, though, it's important to keep RI looking just like our Facebook feed, otherwise ... how can we get any thinking done?

Chan culture is not a reproductive strategy, hence the "incel" mockery -- but male feminism definitely is.

A decade ago is was acceptable and normal to joke about transexuals because they didn't have their PR or street-level organizing together yet. Presumably all the pundits and comedians who were mocking "Trannies" back then have completely purged their souls of that darkness, rather than made a cynical decision to go with the flow. How could anyone question the commitment of Barclays to human rights, for instance? This whole rainbow flag movement on Madison Avenue is at least as serious as when they were all "Going Green" ten years ago, right?

As long we keep looking up to the screen god for validation we're going to keep losing all of these fights.

At least we'll have the consolation of being right, or something.
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They could still get him out of office.
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:59 pm

As ever, you see accusations where none exist. I can't fix that for you.
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby Elvis » Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:18 pm

Heaven Swan to American Dream» Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:03 am wrote:If you’re so clear and convinced that the higher synthesis you refer to is superior, I’d like to hear from you, in your own words, what exactly this higher synthesis is.


Good luck with that.
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby Heaven Swan » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:59 pm

American Dream » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:42 am wrote:What is this fundamental and defining difference you see between 2012 and now?

Capitalism has long been the dominant mode of production. Patriarchy and State have longer histories, as does Racism.


So...your response is a dodge and a non-answer.
And yes the conflict and damage resulting from Identity politics gets worse with each passing year.

And thanks Wombat and SLAD for some much needed good laughs. Picking up chicks....those photos. Oh SLAD, I missed you and am so glad you’re back. :lovehearts:
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby American Dream » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:59 pm

Nothing has fundamentally changed since 2012 when the privilege politics article was written. For those who sincerely want to understand, I will offer up this:

The broad category of class politics is not really in opposition to organizing struggles that are also: racial, feminist, queer liberationist etc. When one seeks a higher level of synthesis it becomes clear that socialist feminism overlaps with struggles around racialized capitalism, queer militancy and etc. As one increases their radical awareness it becomes clear that struggles against Capital, the State, and Power generally are fundamentally integrated with the deeper level of "identity" struggles, whatever the silliness of the superficial liberalism which may pass for "identity politics" in the corporate media sphere.

Beware those who tell you that it's either one or the other and you must choose now, that they will lead you beyond Right and Left. That rarely ends well.
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby Elvis » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:30 pm

Talked to a black Trump supporter yesterday. He doesn't want to be boxed in as a "black voter." He thinks it's divisive. He's been conservative since voting for Reagan in 1980, so it's not a revelation spurred by recent events.

I kept wanting to ask him, "But as a black voter don't you ______?" But no use, that's just not his perspective.

He's articulate, not a dumbell. I'm still thinking about what he said.
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby American Dream » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:38 pm

I know a few Trump supporters kinda like that. I don't agree with their conclusions nor their fever dreams but I did listen. I think America is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome to a significant degree.
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby Elvis » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:14 pm

I was going to mention Stockholm syndrome and "join the winning side" strategies in general as possible underlying mechanisms with this fellow. But at some point I wanted to stop analyzing him as a black person and just go directly to the political specifics. I hope to talk further with him; I wonder, e.g., if he's been to Trump rallies, where one does often see a (very) few black people.
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby Heaven Swan » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:27 am

American Dream » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:59 pm wrote:Nothing has fundamentally changed since 2012 when the privilege politics article was written. For those who sincerely want to understand, I will offer up this:

The broad category of class politics is not really in opposition to organizing struggles that are also: racial, feminist, queer liberationist etc. When one seeks a higher level of synthesis it becomes clear that socialist feminism overlaps with struggles around racialized capitalism, queer militancy and etc. As one increases their radical awareness it becomes clear that struggles against Capital, the State, and Power generally are fundamentally integrated with the deeper level of "identity" struggles, whatever the silliness of the superficial liberalism which may pass for "identity politics" in the corporate media sphere.

Beware those who tell you that it's either one or the other and you must choose now, that they will lead you beyond Right and Left. That rarely ends well.


Bolding mine because I want to address that point.

Not “in opposition to” but a deft shift in the road that seems slight but is actually a wrong turn that leads you towards a completely different destination.

American neo-liberals, social planners and spook think tanks of late seem to specialize in suggesting or engineering such gentle nudges. They do learn from their mistakes, and very important lessons were learned in the US and Europe in the ‘60’s -70’s, not to mention in the countless countries where hard interventions such as coup d’etat’s were required.

The lesson—It’s much, much better to nip nascent movements in the bud than to try to stop them when the movement has grown legs and gained momentum.

Illustrations?

-Liberal Feminist reversals such as turning “prostitution and pornography are symptoms and attributes of oppression and sexual violence towards women” into “sex work is empowering and a great job opportunity.”

-“Queer Liberation” replaces the movement for homosexual dignity and rights. To quality as queer, it’s enough to wear blue nail polish and glittery eye make-up, any heterosexual can join, which effectively erases gays and lesbians from their own movement.

-For the Identity Politics course shifting of the Black liberation movement I’ll leave you with a few quotes from a (highly recommended) article by Cornel West about Ta-nehisi Coates, an author much feted and heavily promoted by the mainstream media and literary establishment:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ornel-west

“...In short, Coates fetishizes white supremacy. He makes it almighty, magical and unremovable. What concerns me is his narrative of “defiance”. For Coates, defiance is narrowly aesthetic – a personal commitment to writing with no connection to collective action. It generates crocodile tears of neoliberals who have no intention of sharing power or giving up privilege.

When he honestly asks: “How do you defy a power that insists on claiming you?”, the answer should be clear: they claim you because you are silent on what is a threat to their order (especially Wall Street and war). You defy them when you threaten that order.”

“...Coates tries to justify his “defiance” by an appeal to “black atheism, to a disbelief in dreams and moral appeal”. He not only has “no expectations of white people at all”, but for him, if freedom means anything at all it is “this defiance”.

Note that his perception of white people is tribal and his conception of freedom is neoliberal. Racial groups are homogeneous and freedom is individualistic in his world. Classes don’t exist and empires are nonexistent.”

“...There is no doubt that the marketing of Coates – like the marketing of anyone – warrants suspicion. Does the profiteering of fatalism about white supremacy and pessimism of black freedom fit well in an age of Trump – an age of neo-fascism, US style?”

“...Unfortunately, Coates’ allegiance to Obama has produced an impoverished understanding of black history. He reveals this when he writes: “Ossie Davis famously eulogized Malcolm X as ‘our living, Black manhood’ and ‘our own Black shining prince.’ Only one man today could bear those twin honorifics: Barack Obama.”

This gross misunderstanding of who Malcolm X was – the greatest prophetic voice against the American Empire – and who Barack Obama is – the first black head of the American Empire – speaks volumes about Coates’ neoliberal view of the world.

Coates praises Obama as a “deeply moral human being” while remaining silent on the 563 drone strikes, the assassination of US citizens with no trial, the 26,171 bombs dropped on five Muslim-majority countries in 2016 and the 550 Palestinian children killed with US supported planes in 51 days, etc. He calls Obama “one of the greatest presidents in American history,” who for “eight years ... walked on ice and never fell.”

It is clear that his narrow racial tribalism and myopic political neoliberalism has no place for keeping track of Wall Street greed, US imperial crimes or black elite indifference to poverty. For example, there is no serious attention to the plight of the most vulnerable in our community, the LGBT people who are disproportionately affected by violence, poverty, neglect and disrespect.“
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby American Dream » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:16 am

Heaven Swan, you are missing the boat. Socialist/anarchist Feminism often aligns with the labor struggles of sex workers as opposed to legal strategizes to criminalize and suppress because of the contention that sex work is work. Most of these class struggle tendencies would ultimately like to abolish "work" (e.g. wage labor) but while it exists, support sex workers as a particular segment of workers/migrants/women etc. with unique and important needs. A militant anti-State orientation only adds force to the mix.

You are right that more radical "queer" tendencies stand opposed to assimilationist strategies but the fashion requirements you stipulate sound like an anecdote turned into a gross generalization.

As to the critique of Ta-nehisi Coates by Cornel West, there have long been safer and more liberal (less radical) iterations of black liberation discourse which receive institutional support. This is nothing particularly new but long a feature of anti-Blackness in "America". It does not particularly support your contentions around Class vs. Identity as Cornel West himself is an example of the synthesis I am alluding to: He is himself a prominent example of someone who has taken up the mantle of Class Struggle and of Black Liberation.


Heaven Swan » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:27 am wrote:
American Dream » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:59 pm wrote:Nothing has fundamentally changed since 2012 when the privilege politics article was written. For those who sincerely want to understand, I will offer up this:

The broad category of class politics is not really in opposition to organizing struggles that are also: racial, feminist, queer liberationist etc. When one seeks a higher level of synthesis it becomes clear that socialist feminism overlaps with struggles around racialized capitalism, queer militancy and etc. As one increases their radical awareness it becomes clear that struggles against Capital, the State, and Power generally are fundamentally integrated with the deeper level of "identity" struggles, whatever the silliness of the superficial liberalism which may pass for "identity politics" in the corporate media sphere.

Beware those who tell you that it's either one or the other and you must choose now, that they will lead you beyond Right and Left. That rarely ends well.


Bolding mine because I want to address that point.

Not “in opposition to” but a deft shift in the road that seems slight but is actually a wrong turn that leads you towards a completely different destination.

American neo-liberals, social planners and spook think tanks of late seem to specialize in suggesting or engineering such gentle nudges. They do learn from their mistakes, and very important lessons were learned in the US and Europe in the ‘60’s -70’s, not to mention in the countless countries where hard interventions such as coup d’etat’s were required.

The lesson—It’s much, much better to nip nascent movements in the bud than to try to stop them when the movement has grown legs and gained momentum.

Illustrations?

-Liberal Feminist reversals such as turning “prostitution and pornography are symptoms and attributes of oppression and sexual violence towards women” into “sex work is empowering and a great job opportunity.”

-“Queer Liberation” replaces the movement for homosexual dignity and rights. To quality as queer, it’s enough to wear blue nail polish and glittery eye make-up, any heterosexual can join, which effectively erases gays and lesbians from their own movement.

-For the Identity Politics course shifting of the Black liberation movement I’ll leave you with a few quotes from a (highly recommended) article by Cornel West about Ta-nehisi Coates, an author much feted and heavily promoted by the mainstream media and literary establishment:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ornel-west

“...In short, Coates fetishizes white supremacy. He makes it almighty, magical and unremovable. What concerns me is his narrative of “defiance”. For Coates, defiance is narrowly aesthetic – a personal commitment to writing with no connection to collective action. It generates crocodile tears of neoliberals who have no intention of sharing power or giving up privilege.

When he honestly asks: “How do you defy a power that insists on claiming you?”, the answer should be clear: they claim you because you are silent on what is a threat to their order (especially Wall Street and war). You defy them when you threaten that order.”

“...Coates tries to justify his “defiance” by an appeal to “black atheism, to a disbelief in dreams and moral appeal”. He not only has “no expectations of white people at all”, but for him, if freedom means anything at all it is “this defiance”.

Note that his perception of white people is tribal and his conception of freedom is neoliberal. Racial groups are homogeneous and freedom is individualistic in his world. Classes don’t exist and empires are nonexistent.”

“...There is no doubt that the marketing of Coates – like the marketing of anyone – warrants suspicion. Does the profiteering of fatalism about white supremacy and pessimism of black freedom fit well in an age of Trump – an age of neo-fascism, US style?”

“...Unfortunately, Coates’ allegiance to Obama has produced an impoverished understanding of black history. He reveals this when he writes: “Ossie Davis famously eulogized Malcolm X as ‘our living, Black manhood’ and ‘our own Black shining prince.’ Only one man today could bear those twin honorifics: Barack Obama.”

This gross misunderstanding of who Malcolm X was – the greatest prophetic voice against the American Empire – and who Barack Obama is – the first black head of the American Empire – speaks volumes about Coates’ neoliberal view of the world.

Coates praises Obama as a “deeply moral human being” while remaining silent on the 563 drone strikes, the assassination of US citizens with no trial, the 26,171 bombs dropped on five Muslim-majority countries in 2016 and the 550 Palestinian children killed with US supported planes in 51 days, etc. He calls Obama “one of the greatest presidents in American history,” who for “eight years ... walked on ice and never fell.”

It is clear that his narrow racial tribalism and myopic political neoliberalism has no place for keeping track of Wall Street greed, US imperial crimes or black elite indifference to poverty. For example, there is no serious attention to the plight of the most vulnerable in our community, the LGBT people who are disproportionately affected by violence, poverty, neglect and disrespect.“
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby Heaven Swan » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:01 am

American Dream » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:16 am wrote:Heaven Swan, you are missing the boat. Socialist/anarchist Feminism often aligns with the labor struggles of sex workers as opposed to legal strategizes to criminalize and suppress because of the contention that sex work is work. Most of these class struggle tendencies would ultimately like to abolish "work" (e.g. wage labor) but while it exists, support sex workers as a particular segment of workers/migrants/women etc. with unique and important needs. A militant anti-State orientation only adds force to the mix.

You are right that more radical "queer" tendencies stand opposed to assimilationist strategies but the fashion requirements you stipulate sound like an anecdote turned into a gross generalization.

As to the critique of Ta-nehisi Coates by Cornel West, there have long been safer and more liberal (less radical) iterations of black liberation discourse which receive institutional support. This is nothing particularly new but long a feature of anti-Blackness in "America". It does not particularly support your contentions around Class vs. Identity as Cornel West himself is an example of the synthesis I am alluding to: He is himself a prominent example of someone who has taken up the mantle of Class Struggle and of Black Liberation.


You can keep your "boat" AD. I have no use for a boat constructed at American universities and fueled by crypto-racism and misogyny. I hope you enjoy sailing off into the neo-liberal sunset. Beware of storms though. #Me too may now only be a tropical gale but tsunami-force waves and winds are predicted.

And I know you're committed to fighting against it but for those who may be interested in the Nordic approach to prostitution here is a thread about it:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40367&hilit=Nordic+model

Legalization and decriminalization of prostitution decriminalize the pimps and sex industry along with the women. The Nordic Model decriminalizes the prostituted woman and men, ups the penalties for traffickers and pimps, and slaps charges and fines on the johns.
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby American Dream » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:11 am

Your boat is sinking, Heaven Swan. Promoting transphobic bigotry as feminist, as well as criminal/carceral strategies towards sex work, will put you among the dinosaurs of "left" politics. You would do well to expand and clarify your vision.
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby Heaven Swan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:02 am

American Dream » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:11 am wrote:Your boat is sinking, Heaven Swan. Promoting transphobic bigotry as feminist, as well as criminal/carceral strategies towards sex work, will put you among the dinosaurs of "left" politics. You would do well to expand and clarify your vision.


Bolding mine

Look where legalization leads—
Legalized Prostitution In Germany Looks Like A Living Nightmare (PHOTOS)
https://fightthenewdrug.org/germanys-le ... ror-movie/

Decriminalization is even worse —A free-for-all for pimps and profiteers, who are also considered ‘sex workers’ , with no legal protections for the prostituted individuals.

In the meantime, countries in which the Nordic Model has been adopted have seen prostitution close to eliminated and respect for women rising ever-higher.

It seems that, when fines and possible outing to wives and community are possible consequences, many or most men choose to forgo paying for sex with prostituted and trafficked women.
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby American Dream » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:36 am

Abolishing sex work is part and parcel of the struggle to abolish wage labor generally. Mafia businesses are part and parcel of the capitalist system, albeit sometimes the worst part.
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Re: Navigating New Identity Politics

Postby dada » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:09 am

It isn't a uniform, step by step process, is it though. It isn't impossible to work to abolish sex work before the rest of the project to abolish work in general 'catches up to it.'
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