Jimmy Savile: I'd like to comment but I can't...

[jakell]

It seems to me that Saville is the one people find more comfortable, it's easier to think of elites (the other) doing this sort of thing, but not of ordinary folks** as in the case of Rotherham (and related cases).

I made a comment to someone yesterday that seems to be relevant here:

I can’t help but envision a wide spectrum ranging from tightly controlled, laboratory experiments (the archetypal MKULTRA set & setting) to reservation schools in Canada, Catholic schools with systemic abuse, or childcare homes in the UK (and daycare centers in the US), where the abuse occurring seems far more random and not at all “experimental” (or results-driven) yet seems to emerge from the same principles and methods and to all combine toward more or less the same end. This is also to do, I think, with the overlap between an organized program (aka worldwide conspiracy) and a consistent psychological reaction to trauma that creates more or less the exact same behaviors, rituals, and abuses, see Lloyd de Mause:

After reading over a hundred descriptions of what cults – both contemporary and historical – do to children, the first conclusion that I came to was that they all do pretty much the same things. They weren’t following a worldwide conspiracy; most of them were just neighborhood sadists torturing kids for sexual pleasure, people who never read a book on Satanism in their lives. Yet they all spontaneously follow a ritual whose elements and even details are the same: they take little children and tie them up; put them In cages and tunnels; beat and torture them; turn them upside down and hold them in water; cut, stab and rape them; force them to eat their feces and drink their urine and blood; and disembowel, dismember and kill them while ejaculating. They seemed to me to be acting out a very specific drama. What could such a bizarre collection of acts mean?

Cult abuse, like all sadistic acts, individual or group, is a sexual perversion whose purpose is achieving orgasm by means of a defense against severe fears of disintegration and engulfment. According to Socarides, sadistic release is achieved by inflicting upon a scapegoat childhood traumas – particularly preverbal experiences with a frightening, cruel or neglectful mother – inflicting rather than passively unduring pain and destruction.(19) Sadists live their daily lives full of terrible anxieties about being independent and active. Any success in their lives Is terribly fearful, producing regression to infancy and a desire to merge with mommy. But merging means losing one’s self, being annihilated. To avoid this, it is necessary to inflict on someone else all the traumas one has had plus all the fantasies of revenge against the persecuting parents. Only by reenacting cultic rituals can these deeply regressed individuals avoid castration and engulfment fears and reassure themselves of their potency and separateness.

https://ritualabuse.us/ritualabuse/arti ... hohistory/

I also suppose there may have been cases where Abrahamic religions may have contributed or intervened against child abuse in certain contexts, which really complicates an attempt to understand these issues with a simple formula

From Prisoner of Infinity part 2, also relevant?

The very act of believing in the possibility of transcendence defines the child in contrast to and opposition with the father. This inevitably creates in the (male) child a negative identity, a self defined in opposition to others. The child needs either to outdo its father or become the opposite of him (as in my case, and I suspect Strieber’s, Kurtzweil’s, Castaneda’s, et al) by believing in non-material perspectives, spirituality, occultism, UFOs, sorcery, or impossible (but not unthinkable) technological solutions. This necessary belief, or crucial fiction, creates a psychic line of defense against the possibility of becoming the father, i.e., falling prey to the same depersonalizing, soul-crushing forces of “reality”—be it the reality of God or of Government (or both)—which made the father powerless to rescue the child. These are the forces that “stole” the father from the child (and the father from the mother) to begin with. They are also the forces which the father “sold” the child into, as an offering, as Abraham offered Isaac to Jehovah, or Jacob’s sons sold Joseph into slavery, to the “machine,” to Mammon.

I'm hoping that we are reaching a stage now where these events can be reflected upon a little more coolly, and therefore some decent research can be done. There never seemed to be that much of problem with the Saville business, but the Rotherham cases seem to produce a regular wall of silence (or dismissive mumbling), even after they got mainstream coverage.
I find it hard to believe that there was no crossover with Saville's legacy (there are bound to be folks continuing his 'thing', just far more clandestinely), the Rotherham business, with the trafficking between Northern towns will have made plenty of waves and won't have gone unnoticed, surely the cultural boundaries are not so strong as to override such close common interests.

You're far more of a heavy hitter than me with this sort of stuff, and I welcome your input. I only really intersected with it when examining the BNP's earlier claims about it (mid-late 00's) and discovering to some dismay that they had scored more hits than misses in this area.

[Fixx]

If you do not understand the power asymmetries Jakell accepts as "always present," I can better understand the ignorance of your comment. You're not a stranger to RI, so I do not know how you, much like the court, finds these women truly guilty of their crimes, unless of course, you've never read any of the threads discussing the abused and their abusers.

Women can also be nasty, horrible members of the human race as well, not everything is automatically the fault of men.

[Iamwhomiam]

Guru is right, we don't know its extent, but we do know sexual abuse of women by men occurs in all societies and classes, by all races and classes of men. Why we do not know its full extent is because it is usually secretive, even and especially when the abuse is committed by members of a group or so called "secret society."

How few of us are aware of such abuses taking place within our own families? The sister who hides the abuse she suffers from her husband or boyfriend. The abused child who does not have the capability to confide in others their abuse from a sibling or parent.

Sexual abuse is experienced by women in every economic class, by men of every economic class. Only men can prevent rape. (yes, women too engage is sexual abuse of other women and men, but not nearly as often as offenses committed by men against women.)

Sexual abuse of men and boys does occur, as we all know, committed largely by men, whether homosexual themselves or not.

[guruilla]

(yes, women too engage is sexual abuse of other women and men, but not nearly as often as offenses committed by men against women.)

Sexual abuse of men and boys does occur, as we all know, committed largely by men, whether homosexual themselves or not.

This is a common assumption that the statistics don't necessarily back up, as already raised at other threads during the recent gender dust-up. Sad to see how little dent new data makes on minds that are already conditioned. I've no idea how this thread became about sex and race, except that apparently these issues are burning up all other concerns lately.

[Iamwhomiam]

You've wrongly assumed I've read material provided in other threads, Guru. If you feel woman are just as involved as men, I would not agree.

Perhaps had I your experience in life and had researched this material for several years, I might come to the same conclusions you have, but alas, and quite fortunately for me, our upbringing is nothing alike.

You can call my view ignorant "conditioning." I've had very little personal exposure to the topic and it is from my limited experience I draw my conclusions.

Are you suggesting I am wrong and that there are as many women committing sexually abusive crimes as men. It seems so. Rather than be vague, pointing to material in another thread I've not read, why not simply provide me with a link to material disproving my understanding, or to the source material which will?

I am of the belief more men than women engage in sexual abuse, because my most limited personal experience with the subject tells me this is true.

I would much rather be educated than mocked because of my ignorance on any subject.

That would be more educational than merely telling me how sad my view makes you due to my ignorance.



Are you suggesting men do not commit

[guruilla]

Here.

[Iamwhomiam]

Well, Guru, that particularly addresses tendencies towards violence, that women can act with violence against another and are likely to just as often as men, which is not news to me as it was to you when you posted that two and a half months ago.

In fact, there is nothing specific to women committing sexually abusive crimes, nor is there mention of men's sexual abuse. I would say it would be stretch to say that women act out in sexually abusive ways as often as men, just because women can act with violence just as often can men.

Certainly, you're not suggesting all men who behave violently towards others, do so only by being sexually abusive? Conversely, you're not suggesting all women who act out violently, do so by only through sexually abusing others?

[tapitsbo]

It's easy to be persuaded that men commit more sexual violence than women; quibbling about that is beyond the scope of what i feel like pursuing, honestly.

Saying that men are the "common denominator" of sexual violence is just not accurate, however.

[Iamwhomiam]

My experience, is what I know to be true. It's not been a matter of my being persuaded to adopt my belief. I've personally only know of one woman who has committed sexual abuse of her child, when her child was an infant she sucked his cock to comfort him. When he was twelve he sexually abused his 2 year old cousin. His estranged father became a multiple murderer and I was his first chosen victim. Obviously he failed to kill me but went on to kill others.

I knew of at least 50 male teens who had gang-raped a younger female teen before I left high school and of many more incidents of sexual abuse by men against women since. It's not within my experience that women commit crimes of sexual abuse more often or equal to those committed by men. I've not come across any information relating any ratio of such crimes between sexes. Has anyone gathered such information?

Guru can PM me his response if you feel I'm distracting away for the topic, tapitsbo.

[tapitsbo]

I don't feel it's a distraction at all. I think guruilla has provided all sorts of interesting data, not all of it should necessarily be taken at face value but it does raise interesting questions. By and large I agree with the drift of what you're saying, anecdotal evidence aside. It's just obvious to me that we don't have a common denominator of only men abusing children, especially with "intersectional feminism" defenses of pedophilia currently entering popular consciousness.

[guruilla]

I don't think one's own experience is adequate if we are trying to discuss statistics. For me the burning issue around this is that the idea that men are routinely sexually & violently abusive towards women and children (as well as other men) is beyond widespread; it is simply taken as a given. On the other hand the idea that women are routinely sexually & violently abusive towards men and children (as well as other women) is, as IamwhoIam echoes, controversial. For one thing, abuse by mothers of their children, as in the case Iam cites, might in many case be less easily recognized. On the other hand, it just may not be be getting talked about. Historically, or so Lloyd de Mause's data shows, it's not uncommon at all. Eg:

What kind of mothers are these who not only tell their children they should commit suicide for Allah but let them watch daily TV messages in between cartoons that say they should kill themselves and even give them suicide belts to march around to practice their suicides?24 Like mothers everywhere, when they inflict abuse on their children they are simply repeating abuse that was committed on them when they were little girls. That terrorist cultures treat females horribly is well known. When a girl baby is being born, Islamist cultures traditionally dig a hole next to the birthing bed in case it is female and might be infanticided. A large majority of all girls in Islamist cultures are raped, and are even often blamed for their rape, since it is assumed that “those who don’t ask to be raped will never be raped.”25 Most girls have their genitals painfully mutilated around 6 years of age by their mothers, who as they chop off their clitoris and labia joyfully chant: “Today I am the master, for I am a man. Look—I have the knife in my hand…Your clitoris, I will cut it off and throw it away for today I am a man.”26 Genital mutilation is practiced by Islamist families from 40 countries; a recent survey of Egyptian girls and women, for instance, showed 97 percent of uneducated families and 66 percent of educated families still practiced female genital mutilation.27 As girls grow up they are treated as polluted beings, veiled, and routinely beaten by their mothers and husbands.28 It is no wonder that Physicians for Human Rights found that 97 percent of women they surveyed in Islamic areas suffered from severe depression.29 Such life-long painful physical and sexual abuse surely does not help a woman give love to her children; she passes on her beating, burning, cutting, kicking, and stabbing to the next generation.

The Origins of War in Child Abuse by Lloyd deMause
http://psychohistory.com/books/the-orig ... otherland/

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That real French mothers at the time of the Revolution were actually killers is a well-hidden secret of most historians. Maternal infanticide was called “the most common crime in Western Europe from the Middle Ages down to the end of the eighteenth century,”31 and my own extensive research on historical infanticide rates as revealed by boy/girl sex ratios from census and other sources showed about a third more boys than girls were allowed to live, meaning most children growing up watched their mothers strangle and throw into the outhouse at least two of her newborn babies, embedding in their psyches a clear picture of their Killer Mother.32 Since the wealthy killed their children at even higher rates than the poor, the high infanticide rates were not mainly due to poverty, but reflected real attitudes toward children.

The Origins of War in Child Abuse by Lloyd deMause
http://psychohistory.com/books/the-orig ... otherland/

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mothers agreed during Christian times that their infants were so evil they were “inclined in their hearts to adultery, fornication, impure desires, anger, gluttony, hatred and more,” so this meant they had to be tightly bound in yards of swaddling bands and brutally beaten daily beginning as babies.37 Thus it is not surprising to find illustrations of going to war as a process of offering up your evil children’s lives to the Killer Motherland. When the children were growing up, they were threatened by images and even actual dummies dressed up as Evil Witches who if they were not totally obedient to the mother would tear them to pieces, suck their blood and eat them up.38 These Evil Witches are the earliest forms of the Killer Motherland who demands your blood and your life in war. The use of masked devouring figures to frighten children goes back to antiquity; it was said by Dio Chrysostom that “terrifying images deter children when they want food or play.”39

The Origins of War in Child Abuse by Lloyd deMause
http://psychohistory.com/books/the-orig ... otherland/

I realize that this doesn't address sexual abuse directly, but I don't see any reason to draw a line there. Masturbating infants to get them to fall asleep AFAIK has been a fairly common practice throughout cultures and periods.

Actually, I just came to the thread to post this pic, which I hadn't seen before, of JS with Jess Conrad:



Funnily enough, I was looking for a picture of Jimmy with his mom.

[Iamwhomiam]

As far as I know, there are no firm statistics gathered from research on how extensive male sexual abuse of women is or of how extensive female sexual abuse of men is.

The statistics you've referred to I've not seen linked to. Your understanding of this topic is based upon your life experience as is mine and they are very different. You speak from your experience, as do I.

Lastly, it is bizarre that you use FGM as female inspired abuse, although it is females who conduct the mutilation. But why do they do this? It is done because their patriarchal religion and culture demands it be done. But why? It is done to enslave and control the behaviours of women. Their women. Those women who carry it out have been brainwashed to believe the practice is necessary.

Pity the child of this culture whose hymen is accidentally ruptured!


edited to add abuse after inspired

[guruilla]

The statistics you've referred to I've not seen linked to. Your understanding of this topic is based upon your life experience as is mine and they are very different. You speak from your experience, as do I.

Lastly, it is bizarre that you use FGM as female inspired abuse, although it is females who conduct the mutilation. But why do they do this? It is done because their patriarchal religion and culture demands it be done. But why? It is done to enslave and control the behaviours of women. Their women. Those women who carry it out have been brainwashed to believe the practice is necessary.

LdM's data is independent of your or my experience. Why do women do what they do? Because of "the patriarchy" (i.e., what men do)? Why do men do what they do? Because of how they were imprinted by their mothers. And so on.

If, as feminists of all stripes contend, violence and militarism are simply patriarchy writ large, why are Motherlands the central focus of emotional group-fantasies about war? The answer is clear: all these “Dangerous Women” and Killer Motherland fantasies are mainly those of men. It is mainly men who kill under the delusion that “We have laid ourselves over the body of the motherland in order to revive her”9 or “We are to die so that the motherland may live; for while we live the motherland is dying.”10 It was men on WWI battlefields who called their cannons “Mother” and referred to themselves as children waiting upon and feeding Her.11 It is men who as officers refer to themselves as the “company mother” or as “the mother hen watching the other guys like they was my children.”12 It is men who join the military to appeal to women as brave heroes who will save them, who respond to recruiting posters saying “Women of Britain Say ‘GO!”, who claim “all women like to hear of men fighting and facing danger”13 and who go to their death in battle with one word, “Mom,” on their lips. Mothers today may not send their sons forth to battle with the adjuration “Come back with your shield or on it” as did Spartan mothers, but in fantasy many soldiers still hear the inner voices of their mothers saying to them: “Grow up and be a MAN”—i.e., kill or be killed.14

[guruilla]

[RocketMan]

Louis Theroux came out yesterday with a follow-up to his original Savile episode:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radi ... ?CMP=fb_gu

Theroux sets out to explain how he, and everyone else, failed to uncover Savile’s rape and child abuse in a brave, bold and honest film

Also:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 41246.html

Jimmy Savile gropes teenager in newly emerged Louis Theroux footage