Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

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Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby RocketMan » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:24 pm

I watched the first episode. Very well done, interesting new slant. Didn't blow me totally away though, I'm hoping for more bombshells and parapolitics in future episodes.

‘Oliver Stone’s Untold History of the United States’: Facts through a new lens

“Oliver Stone’s Untold History of the United States” runs over 10 one-hour episodes, beginning in World War II and continuing through the Obama administration. With newsreel footage, copious research and Stone’s own understated narration, “Untold History” revisits familiar events, but through an unapologetically leftist lens. While “Untold History” is grounded in indisputable fact, some of its contentions will certainly give conservatives and even moderate liberals pause, including its championing of Wallace, who has been castigated in recent years for what critics see as an appeasing attitude toward Soviet leader Joseph Stalin and surrounding himself with communists.
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby wordspeak2 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:46 am

I don't have a TV, and I'm curious about Stone's doc, so feel free to drop any summaries here. It's playing on Showtime for the next few weeks, right? Sometime after which I assume it'll be available on video...
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby Elvis » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:13 pm

Stone in 2-hour radio interview tonight:

12-16-12

In the first half, George Knapp will be joined by film director, Oliver Stone and Professor of History, Peter Kuznick, for a discussion on how far the United States has drifted from its democratic traditions and the powerful forces that have struggled to get it back on track.

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2012/12/16

George Knapp is, for me, the most bearable of the C2C hosts.

The second half sounds interesting too:

In the latter half, chairman of International Cruise Victims, Kendall Carver, will discuss odd and mysterious disappearances on-board cruise ships and how the industry stonewalls investigations of missing people.


My hunch has been that, in some cases anyway, spies have been throwing people overboard to steal their passports.
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby justdrew » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:41 pm

it's good

http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35843

it's doing a reasonable job of showing how fuckwit authoritarian types have fucked up America and so the world for around 60 years now.

The doom came when FDR was forced to drop Henry A. Wallace as VP.

we would live in another world entirely had http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_A._Wallace not been forced out.

THAT IS THE MOMENT WE LOST and have never recovered from.

Authoritarianism needs to be tested for and treated. They are incapable of making rational decisions and very nearly destroyed the earth. They may yet succeed.

Also, Wallace's run in '48 is the actual explanation for the Dewy beats Truman headline. Progressives who wanted to vote for him had to go to truman least Dewy win. and it's been the SAME FUCKING STORY ever since.

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With Idaho Democratic U.S. Senator Glen H. Taylor as his running mate, his platform advocated friendly relations with the Soviet Union, an end to the nascent Cold War, an end to segregation, full voting rights for blacks, and universal government health insurance. His campaign was unusual for his time in that it included African American candidates campaigning alongside white candidates in the American South, and that during the campaign he refused to appear before segregated audiences or eat or stay in segregated establishments.
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby Elvis » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:06 am

fwiw, Stone, along with an historian, is appearing on the Coast to Coast Am radio show, in a few minutes from now.

And, thanks for the report---I'm hoping it's available in the library soon (our city library stocks tons of good DVD documentaries).
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby jcivil » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:23 am

Saw the first ep on WW2

bollocks is too kind.

make it out as a revelation that the ussr was the main fighting force of the war, is anyone illuminated?

no mention of Harriman building up the USSR, or his stooge P. Bush fronting for him with the Nazi build up, or that the US supplied all the steel and fuel to Japan for their whole build up and expansion. No mention of Standard oil supplying oil to Germany through 1943 or basically any of the relevant facts to understand the shitstem in any meaningful way. Very limited hang out indeed. What a waste of time, except for the bastards who want to keep up the obfuscation.

One of the experiences which "radicalized" me was watching Salvador as a youth. Never cared much for other Stone movies yet 9/11 was the film atrocity which made me think he is not a reliable human. This deepened that feeling.

The rest of the episodes? If something is revealed of merit, let me know. That WW2 shit was embarrassing.

The only import the middle east had to the empires was Suez. Until 1913 when the brits found oil and in the same moment declared their support for Zionists. Divide and conquer anyone. Once oil was an issue, the sandy dump became very worth fighting for and tearing apart in WW1 and WW2.

IBM designed population control machines tuned for Nazi purpose etc etc etc etc etc
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby justdrew » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:35 am

I agree the 1st ep was lacking, almost gave up on it, but 2 - 5 have been better.
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby jcivil » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:39 am

from such rotten beginnings i can only imagine the puerile half-truths of distortion being bandied.

these are the techniques that totally got me on Rwanda decades back. I saw the genocide unfolding and looked deeper. it could not be "tribe vs tribe" animal slaughter, i suspected. and there i found the little gems placed so typically for me to find. French special ops. Multinational influence meddling. Leaders dying suspiciously. Triggering the "tribal bloodbath." Ah, the geopolitical subtext I was looking for, provided. Planted. Me, dupe. Deep dupe. Because now we hear the Keith Harmon Snow (White Guy/Snow - Pointing out the race genocide of African's, odd.) point of view, which is quite compelling in certain areas, that US,UK forces with Israeli Aussie Canadian support started the genocide, finished it in Rwanda, then moved it to Congo. (What is called Eastern Congo all the time as if being prepared for calving after the population is sufficiently cleared.)

the fake subtext, more of it
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:03 pm

Have found this to be a real letdown so far, although less viscerally than jcivil did. I am really struck by how much of a classic liberal socialist Stone is, and I don't think it's unfair to say he would have been in the Stalin Defense Chorus along with all the other suckers, post-WWII. I can understand wanting to believe, though.

Overall, it feels distinctly half-baked, too ambitious and scattered, but I will certainly watch it all because I appreciate pretty much anyone's take on history, even Cleon Skousen's. (On that note, really enjoyed "Occupy Unmasked," which I did not expect.)
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:48 am

I miss my unlimited access to cable TV. I'm sure I'd love watching this, half for the treatment, half for the lulz. It's gotta be a couple of light years ahead of History (the former Channel), sometimes you're happy to take whatcha get.

I prefer people's history to the history of great men. I believe that the behavior of millions - active and passive - has usually been the decisive factor in the many contingent situations that arise. In the US, as it's been often said, there are only two forms of power: organized money and organized people. The great political changes have been the result of economic developments on the one hand and stubborn, persistent movements on the other.

But I've always thought that this country had two genuine Zero Hours, and in both cases there was a leader who might have struck out on a radically different and better path. In both cases, he died right at the end of the war, leaving a big IF. I'm not saying Lincoln would have upheld General Order No. 15 and broken up the Southern plantations and led a successful Reconstruction, or that Roosevelt would have really seen through the second "Four Freedoms" and would not have gone along with Hiroshima and Grand Area Planning and putting Nazis into the CIA and setting up the MIC and the Cold War. (Wallace, I really don't know.) I'm saying these two men in these two cases were capable of acting against historical and national inertia. Each had accrued enough personal power and popularity to possibly help establish a different post-war order. The successor in each case was creature and tool of the old-establishment consensus about what to do in what turned out to be a not-so new age.
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:30 pm



http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/01/10/ ... tnam/print

January 10, 2013

Untold History of the United States
Oliver Stone, Obama, and the War in Vietnam


by MICHAEL D. YATES



Oliver Stone’s Showtime series, Untold History of the United States, is the most radical mainstream television I have ever watched. Eye-opening scenes, shocking speech by our presidents, splendid narration by Stone, all make for a compelling series. A 700-page book by Stone and historian Peter Kuznick accompanies the eight-part program; it provides greater detail and covers more ground than the Showtime installments, allowing viewers to gain an even better understanding of our “untold history.”

Episode 7, which is mainly about the War in Vietnam (or the Second Indochina War as it is also called), riveted me to the screen. Stone atones for whatever guilt he has felt about being a soldier in Vietnam by laying out the horrors of the war, the sheer murderous violence of it, in vivid detail. I came of political age in those years, and I got angry all over again watching the bombs and defoliants falling, the victims screaming, and the politicians and generals lying. It will be a joyous day when that master liar and war criminal Henry Kissinger dies and joins his cohorts in mass slaughter, Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon. His name should become a synonym for murderer.

The carnage brought to Southeast Asia by the United States is mind-boggling, as Stone and Kuznick document:

*nearly four million Vietnamese killed.

*more bombs dropped on Vietnam than by all sides in all previous wars throughout history, and three times more dropped than by all sides in the Second World War.

*19,000,000 gallons of herbicide poisoned the land.

*9,000 of 15,000 hamlets destroyed in the South of Vietnam.

*In the North, all six industrial cities devastated; 28 of 30 provincial towns and 96 of 116 district towns leveled by bombing.

*The United States threatened to use nuclear weapons thirteen times. Nixon chided Kissinger for being too squeamish about this. Nixon said he, himself, just didn’t give a damn.

*After the war, unexploded bombs and mines permeated the landscape and took an additional 42,000 lives. Millions of acres of land have still not been cleared of live ordnance.

*Agent Orange and other defoliants have caused severe health problems for millions of Vietnamese.

*Nearly all of Vietnam’s triple canopy forests were destroyed.

*3,000,000 tons of ordnance struck 100,000 sites during the “secret” war in Cambodia, causing widespread social dislocation, destruction of crops, and starvation. The U.S. bombing campaign in Cambodia was directly responsible for the rise of the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot and the genocide that took place afterward (The United States actually sided with Pol Pot when Vietnamese troops finally ended his reign of terror). Stone and Kuznick quote a Khmer Rouge officer:

Every time after there had been bombing, they would take the people to see the craters, to see how big and deep the craters were, to see how the earth had been gouged out and scorched … The ordinary people sometimes literally shit in their pants when the big bombs and shells came. Their minds just froze up and they would wander around mute for three or four days. Terrified and half crazy, the people were ready to believe what they were told. It was because of their dissatisfaction with the bombing that they kept on cooperating with the Khmer Rouge, joining up with the Khmer Rouge, sending their children off to go with them … Sometimes the bombs fell and hit little children, and their fathers would be all for the Khmer Rouge.

*2,756,941 tons of ordnance dropped in Laos on 113,716 sites. Much of the Laotian landscape was blown to bits.

At a news conference in 1977, in response to a reporter’s question asking if the United States had a moral obligation to help rebuild Vietnam, President Jimmy Carter infamously replied:

The destruction was mutual. We went to Vietnam without any desire to capture territory or impose American will on other people. I don’t feel that we ought to apologize or castigate ourselves or to assume the status of culpability.

Mutual? Carter’s statement reflects both the arrogance of power and a vulgar sense of imperial righteousness. There were 58,000 U.S. soldiers killed during the war, and 300,000-plus wounded, and plenty of mental and physical illness, suicides, broken families, and other kinds of distress. Stone nicely captures all of this with a statement made to a journalist by a mother whose son was at My Lai, “I gave them a good boy, and they sent me back a murderer.” But whatever happened here, it pales in comparison to what took place there. There was no mutuality whatsoever, and it is obscene to say there was. What the United States did in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos ranks with the worst atrocities of the twentieth century. If the peoples of Southeast Asia had done to us what we did to them, and the same share of our population was killed as in Vietnam, the Vietnam Memorial wall would have about 20,000,000 names on it.

Our political rulers have continued ever since 1975, when the North Vietnamese Army and the National Liberation Front militarily liberated their country, to not just erase the horrors of Vietnam from public memory but to paint the war as what President Reagan called “a noble cause.” Since he took office, President Obama, an admirer of Reagan, has gone further than any president to do this, attempting to perpetrate another U.S. atrocity, albeit in another form than war, by proclaiming the “Vietnam War Commemoration.” The 2008 National Defense Authorization Act empowered the Secretary of Defense to organize events to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of the War in Vietnam. A thirteen-year commemoration is envisioned, from Memorial Day 2012 until November 11, 2025.

In his Proclamation urging us all to participate in what amounts to an orgy of self-congratulations and forgetfulness, President Obama said:

As we observe the 50th anniversary of the Vietnam War, we reflect with solemn reverence upon the valor of a generation that served with honor. We pay tribute to the more than 3 million servicemen and women who left their families to serve bravely, a world away from everything they knew and everyone they loved. From Ia Drang to Khe Sanh, from Hue to Saigon and countless villages in between, they pushed through jungles and rice paddies, heat and monsoon, fighting heroically to protect the ideals we hold dear as Americans. Through more than a decade of combat, over air, land, and sea, these proud Americans upheld the highest traditions of our Armed Forces.

This made me want to cry. Tens of thousands of Vietnamese suspected of being insurgents or sympathizers assassinated in the CIA’s Phoenix Program; the forcible removal of more than five million villagers from their homes into “Strategic Hamlets”; political prisoners jailed and tortured in “tiger cages”; the intentional bombing of North Vietnamese dikes and hospitals; the murder of some 500 women, babies, children, and old people (many were first raped and later butchered) by GIs at My Lai. What kind of valorous efforts were these? What kind of grand ideals did these embody?

The Secretary of Defense is to organize all of the Commemoration’s programs to satisfy these objectives:

1. To thank and honor veterans of the Vietnam War, including personnel who were held as prisoners of war (POW), or listed as missing in action (MIA), for their service and sacrifice on behalf of the United States and to thank and honor the families of these veterans.

2. To highlight the service of the Armed Forces during the Vietnam War and the contributions of Federal agencies and governmental and non-governmental organizations that served with, or in support of, the Armed Forces.

3. To pay tribute to the contributions made on the home front by the people of the United States during the Vietnam War.

4. To highlight the advances in technology, science, and medicine related to military research conducted during the Vietnam War.

5. To recognize the contributions and sacrifices made by the allies of the United States during the Vietnam War.

These are all awful, but the fourth one would make the Nazis proud.

The current chairman of the Commemoration is former Nebraska Senator and Vietnam veteran Chuck Hagel. He is also under consideration to become the next Secretary of Defense. If he does, he’ll become the chief organizer of everything connected with it. Some progressives claim that Hagel will be a rare voice of reason and decency at the top of the U.S. killing machine. But how reasonable and decent can a man be who would agree to chair this trunkful of lies?

I hope that radicals will do what they can to counter this celebration of atrocities. Monthly Review magazine, with which I am affiliated, will be running a series of essays from our archives, as well as newly written contributions, on the war. The first of these was published in November, 2012, a wonderful review of Oliver Stone’s film, Platoon, by former Marine Leo Cawley, who was poisoned by Agent Orange and died too young from its effects. It’s a good antidote to the most recent attempt to rewrite the history of the war in Southeast Asia. The Vietnam War should never be forgotten. It was a stain on our country and on humanity itself. To glorify it is an ignominious crime. We should instead honor the Vietnamese people, who fought more valiantly and suffered more for their liberation from foreign rule than we ever did for our own.


MICHAEL D. YATES is Associate Editor of Monthly review magazine.He is the author of Cheap Motels and Hot Plates: an Economist’s Travelogue and Naming the System: Inequality and Work in the Global Economy. He is the editor of Wisconsin Uprising: Labor Fights Back. Yates can be reached at mikedjyates@msn.com
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby 8bitagent » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:46 am

It's gonna be hard for me to watch, but I want to watch that Vietnam episode. I just saw "The Man Nobody Knew" which focused mostly on Vietnam and the horror show going on.

In my view Vietnam was nothing but mass genocide by America. While most people think of it as a "mistake" it's so much more than that. Some may see it as akin to someone losing at a game in a casino and entrenched in
a mindset of at least trying to break even. Though, I see it as something much more profoundly darker than mere bumbling and bullheadedness.
Also it's good to see someone call out LBJ as a war criminal. His signing some civil rights laws to me doesn't undo the absolute horror brought to Vietnam, followed up even more intensely aerial wise by Nixon and Kissinger.

We're suppose to celebrate Mccain as a hero for performing 23 bombing raids on villagers? Sick world.
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby OpLan » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:44 am

most of the episodes have been uploaded to disclose.tv

this guy has all but the first one

http://www.disclose.tv/members/action/myprofile/Noentry/57662/page/1/video/filter


*edit*
I did a quick search for the programme - the uploader also has an anti-zionist documentary and a lecture by Irving - apologies for that - I didn't notice it when I originally posted.
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby wetland » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:35 pm

This is worth watching start-to-finish if only for the footage Stone has been able to license. I think that he does a good job illustrating the narrative of the US security state, starting with what a traumatic and lucrative event WWII was.

If you subscribe to a cable service in the US, check to see if the series may be available under the free on-demand menu. I don't have a Showtime subscription, but am able to access it online via Comcast.
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Re: Oliver Stone rolls out the Untold History of the US

Postby MinM » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:50 am

Interesting critique from the comment section of a story @ cannonfire ...
It's extremely telling that in the book version of Stone's new "alternative history" pageant, the JFK hit merits only a passing reference (to "conflicting opinions") on less than a full page of text, with a waffling conclusion no better than the pap offered up in public-school history textbooks.

And this after all the intricate conspiracy hullabaloo Stone once embraced (back in 1991) and promoted, as he quoted and paraphrased extensively from Fletcher Prouty and Jim Marrs.

Methinks that Arnon Milchan, the money man behind Stone's JFK film (one of the chosen tribe, of course) initially backed the project because it promised to wholly deflect suspicion away from the Meyer Lansky/Mossad factions at work back in '63 -- but in later years Stone has been "re-educated" that it's wiser (for his remaining career) to stay even further away from the shadow of the temple. Hence his full support of the official 9/11 myth, with a big-budget cinema spectacular that (ironically) also demonstrated how realistic imagery of the (mysteriously small) rubble pile could be perfectly SIM-ulated with Hollywood craftsmanship.

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