Huge meteor over Russia

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Huge meteor over Russia

Postby FourthBase » Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:05 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:"The probability of a secret space program raining rocks down on us to scare <country's leadership> into <rock-raining country's ambition>?"

That seems more likely, to me. Countries do still threaten each other, right? Unbeknownst to the rest of us, even? Or possibly it could be a secret space program that went haywire. Oh, and while I'm at this, what about the fact that I don't think anyone has seen any rock-like shit that just recently came from space, either. Did they? It mightn't have been rocks is all I'm saying.


Excellent thinking. Excellent advice to phrase things provisionally for greater accuracy.

With the bigger asteroid and the other falling meteorites, maybe there's some kind of space-agency/military target practice happening, taking the rare opportunity to train and test for the civilization-killing black swan of an asteroid that is virtually guaranteed to hit earth within the next 100 to 100 million years. It's one national security project all of us should absolutely want a government to be doing, trying to develop ways to divert or destroy asteroids. (Unless you're radically misanthropic and don't care, or even want an asteroid to "reboot" everything, in which case, let me know so I can set you as a "foe", and then go fuck yourself, lol.)
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
User avatar
FourthBase
 
Posts: 7057
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 4:41 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Why Are We Suddenly Getting Hit By So Many Space Rocks?

Postby Allegro » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:39 pm

And then there are articles, such as the following, that help ground me with information about all those space rocks flying around, all the time, above our heads. If the spectacular space-rock events that happened last week had occurred when I was a kid, my dad, as usual, would’ve been rather casual, but mom would’ve been all over the place with her friends, believing it was a sign of “the end times” spoken in not uncommonly religiously anecdotal forms. I pretty much gave up those religious dramas when I turned into a teen only to discover there were others popping up.

Anyway, the following article is not about religion; the article is about science, for which I’m all ears. Highlights mine, as usual. Numerous links in the original.

_________________
Why Are We Suddenly Getting Hit By So Many Space Rocks? | Phil Plait
Bad Astronomy | 18FEB13

Image
^ Watch for falling rocks. I suspect Photoshop. Image credit: Not An Exact Science Show, used by permission.

    The sky is falling!

    At least, that’s what I’m hearing on the news and on social media. A lot of people are scared about asteroid impacts right now, and it’s hard to blame them. When you have a near-miss by an asteroid the size of an office building just hours after a monster meteor rocks Russia which happened just a day before a fireball blazed over California which was just days after reports of a similar event over Cuba…well, it really does seem like the Universe is trying to kill us.

    Are we under attack? Are all these rocks from the skies related?

    In a word: nope. It’s coincidence.

    Kick in the posteriori

    No, really! Of all the things I’ve been explaining since the Chelyabinsk meteor on Friday, this is the one that people have the hardest time with. I completely sympathize; you can go your whole life without hearing about a major meteor event, and then to get so many at the same time…the feeling that they must be related is overwhelming.

    A lot of that is due to human nature. Our brains love to connect events that happen around the same time, even if they’re unrelated. The proper name for this is post hoc, ergo propter hoc, which means “after this, therefore because of this”. In other words, something happens, then something else happens, and we think the two are related. You find a penny on the ground, and then you meet the love of your life. It’s a lucky penny! Or it’s a coincidence, and your brain links them together.



    Not only that, but another known human trait is to be more aware of an event once one happens. Buy a car, and suddenly you see that model everywhere on the road. Same thing here: We had two big asteroid stories, so people were thinking about it. Then a bright fireball was reported over the San Francisco Bay area, and people freaked. But really, bright meteors like that happen all the time. It’s rare that a week or two goes by that I don’t hear about one someplace, and the web is filled with videos of them.

    OK, fine, we know the psychology of this. But big meteors are rare. How can the Russian meteor and the near-Earth asteroid not be related?

    Rocks That Pass in the Night

    On Friday, Feb. 15, 2013, the asteroid 2012 DA14 approached the Earth, gliding just 27,000 kilometers (17,000 miles) above our planet’s surface. While it wasn’t the closest pass of all time (the Russian meteor got a wee bit closer), it was the closest a rock of that size has ever gotten of which we’ve been aware beforehand. It was a tight squeeze, and media were paying attention. DA14 was small as asteroids go, but an impact by a 50 meter asteroid like DA14 would be like detonating 20 million tons of TNT on the Earth. That’s no dinosaur-killer, but it’s not something you want to happen randomly someplace on Earth.

    I was all ready to talk about it in a live video chat as it passed, but then something else caught my attention.

    The rock that came in over Russia was probably 17 meters across—the size of a house—and had a mass of about 7,000 – 10,000 tons. It was moving many times faster than a rifle bullet, and thus had a lot of kinetic energy—the energy of motion. Slowed by the Earth’s atmosphere, it released that energy as a series of explosions that totaled something like 30,000 – 500,000 tons of TNT, roughly the yield of a small nuclear weapon. It was so huge and bright it was seen for hundreds of kilometers. Russians commonly have video cameras on their dashboards, so videos of the event popped up on the internet within minutes. The videos of the blast wave from the explosion are terrifying, and hundreds of people were injured by shattered glass from windows. Within hours, a hole 8-9 meters (30 feet) across was found in the surface of a frozen lake west of Chelyabinsk, presumably where a large fragment (if not the main mass) of the meteoroid fell to Earth.

    Image
    ^ Still frame from a dashboard camera of the great Russian meteor on Feb. 15, 2013. Image credit: YouTube/Андрей Борисович Королев

    Clearly, the world was paying attention. A ginormous meteor impact just 16 hours before a near-miss by an even larger asteroid? They must be related!

    Except they weren’t. I have a strong feeling some Hollywood movies are behind this idea; every asteroid impact movie (and I’m looking at you, “Armageddon”) shows lots of smaller pieces floating near the main rock, and they always have lots of smaller Earth impacts (and always hitting major landmarks in cities) happening days before hand.

    But that’s not the way it works.

    Cosmic Shooting Gallery

    Picture the Earth in space, moving around the Sun. For an asteroid to impact us, its orbit has to exactly intersect ours, and, not only that, both objects have to be there at the same time. Our planet is big, nearly 13,000 kilometers (8000 miles) across, but as it orbits the Sun it’s moving fast—30 kilometers per second (18 miles per second). That means it moves through its own diameter in just seven minutes.

    The Russian meteor happened 16 hours before the passing of DA14. In that time, the Earth moved 1.7 million kilometers (1 million miles), which is a long way. That right there makes it very likely the two events are unrelated. If you’re driving down the road and see a piece of tumbleweed, and then 16 hours later see another one, what are the odds they’re from the same plant?

    But there’s more. It is possible some asteroids might have debris fields around them, but those smaller attendant rocks would be moving on very nearly the same orbital paths as the main one. Some might be ahead, some behind. You can imagine them as beads on a string.

    But that means that if they hit the Earth, they’ll appear to come from the same part of the sky, and they’ll be moving in the same direction. This is not the case for the Russian meteor and DA14; the former moved roughly east-to-west across Russia, while DA14 was moving south-to-north. They were on entirely different orbits
    . This video can help you see that, as well as this diagram showing the orbits of the inner planets, 2012 DA 14, and the asteroid that became the Russian meteor (found by backtracking the known path of the rock as it entered Earth’s atmosphere):

    Image
    ^ The inner solar system, with the orbits of 2012 DA14 and the Russian meteor in blue. Image credit: NASA

    It’s a lot like two roads intersecting, one going over the other using an overpass. All day long, cars are driving on both roads, but every now and again one car will pass directly over another. At that moment both cars are in the same spot over the Earth’s surface. Neither car is related to the other: One may be on one road heading east, the other on the other road headed north. They came from different places, and they have different destinations, but happen to cross at the same time. It’s a coincidence these two cars happen to be at the same place at the same time, but it’s inevitable that some two cars would do this during the day.

    Image
    ^ Close, but not quite up to
    scientific snuff. Image credit:
    Shutterstock/buradaki
    So it is with asteroids. There are rocks out there orbiting the Sun every which-way, unrelated. Every now and again, we get two of them at the same place at the same time (or within a few days of each other) and that happens to be where the Earth is, too. Coincidence.

    Add in the fact that humans tend to notice unusual things—especially ones that have a special way of getting our attention—and that we also tend to correlate two different events if they happen at or near the same time, and voilà: The Sky Is Falling Syndrome.

    To be sure, on any given day the odds of two big events like this happening within a day of each other are low, but they’re not zero. And given time, the chance becomes a certainty.

    Ask a Dinosaur

    In science, there’s an event called a stochastic process. It happens when you have a system that follows a set of rules, but there’s a random nature to it as well, making it hard to predict exactly how things will turn out. Flip a coin 10,000 times and there’s no way I can tell you what each flip will be, but I can be very confident you’ll get close to 5000 heads and 5000 tails.

    Asteroid impacts are a stochastic process. We know that a near pass by something the size of DA14 only happens once every 40 years. On average. We know something the size of the Chelyabinsk rock hits us once every century. On average. We know a fireball like those seen over California and Cuba happen once a week or so. On average.

    Image
    ^ No, it’s time to think carefully and logically. As it always is. Image credit: CTV/Gabe Dumas

    Another big impact like Chelyabinsk may not occur again for 500 years, or another may come in tonight. There are billions of such rocks in space, and they are simply too small and faint to track. We can only talk about them statistically. The same is true, more or less, with DA14-sized rocks as well, but most likely there are a million or so of them, with 10,000 having been spotted. That’s 1 percent.

    When people think asteroid impacts, they think dinosaur killers. But we have most of the 10-km asteroids mapped out, and we know we’re pretty safe from them. But watch those videos from Russia again, and remember that a rock smaller than an average hill did that.

    We need to take this threat seriously. Congress has called for an investigation into the issue, and I applaud that. I hope something comes out of it. Specifically, cash for NASA, cash for observatories, and cash for private endeavors to build more telescopes, to launch space missions, and to map the volume of space around the Earth’s orbit where these rocks lurk.

    While I don’t lie awake at night in fear of this, I also know that if we wait long enough doing nothing, something the size of Chelyabinsk will hit us again, or it might be bigger. Or it might be made of metal and survive entry into our atmosphere, dumping its megaton of energy into a city instead of high in the atmosphere.

    As science fiction author Larry Niven said, dinosaurs aren’t around because they didn’t have a space program. We do. Now we just have to be intelligent enough to fund it, and to use it.
Art will be the last bastion when all else fades away.
~ Timothy White (b 1952), American rock music journalist
_________________
User avatar
Allegro
 
Posts: 4456
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:44 pm
Location: just right of Orion
Blog: View Blog (144)

Re: Huge meteor over Russia

Postby FourthBase » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:25 pm

To be sure, on any given day the odds of two big events like this happening within a day of each other are low, but they’re not zero. And given time, the chance becomes a certainty.


Yep. Example: 1-in-1,000,000 seems like negligibly low odds. But if every single year something has a 1-in-1,000,000 chance of happening, then over the course of (x) number of years -- like, say, 10,000,000 or 100,000,000 -- it is certain to happen. This might be a concept others learn in a basic high school stats class. I sucked at math in school, and only recently learned it from reading Taleb.

Excellent, excellent article. Thank you, Allegro.
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
User avatar
FourthBase
 
Posts: 7057
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 4:41 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge meteor over Russia

Postby conniption » Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:38 pm

conniption
 
Posts: 2480
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge meteor over Russia

Postby FourthBase » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:47 pm

http://www.fark.com/vidplayer/7601760

Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that it's not a bird, artifact, photoshop, etc...Why must every "UFO" be an freaking alien? If authentic and not-a-bird and not-a-reflection, perhaps it's a newfangled top-secret meteor-hunting drone. In which case, I'd probably say hallelujah, at some government having made a little progress toward asteroid-prophylaxis.
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
User avatar
FourthBase
 
Posts: 7057
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 4:41 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge meteor over Russia

Postby Hammer of Los » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:35 pm

...

It was intercepted in mid-air.

There are no coincidences.

The Gods of Luck and Chance are the same as those of Fate and Destiny.

...
Hammer of Los
 
Posts: 3309
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:48 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge meteor over Russia

Postby Allegro » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:37 am

FourthBase wrote:Excellent, excellent article. Thank you, Allegro.
You’re very welcome, FourthBase. And, thanks much to the author, Dr. Plait.

~ A.
Art will be the last bastion when all else fades away.
~ Timothy White (b 1952), American rock music journalist
_________________
User avatar
Allegro
 
Posts: 4456
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:44 pm
Location: just right of Orion
Blog: View Blog (144)

Re: Huge meteor over Russia

Postby 82_28 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:30 am

I would side with that it was "coincidental" but not a mere coincidence. You have rocks hurtling in space, in their orbits, you have events on Earth and you also have a long long history of shit we call "omens". Check the lightening hitting the Vatican. I know scientists and the scientific minded like to "debunk" shit all the time. That is their job. But when you see shit like this THE RANDOMNESS MEANS SOMETHING! Because it was so random we must look inside to what it means to us. You can't continually be so literal about the stuff that myths are made of. You must look at your time on Earth. Bear in mind the "times" before you. Digest this understanding of time and apply it to history. As time is not an arrow, or maybe it is, I don't think so, but every given moment reverberates in every direction. The bow of the arrow vibrates as the arrow it flung flies towards its inevitable target. The reverberation is the equal force, yet not as lethal as what it catapults.

My old argument for fundamentalists was "the moment you say you know, is the exact moment you are intrinsically saying you don't know."

Multicontext. Hard scientists don't do this so well.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
User avatar
82_28
 
Posts: 11194
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:34 am
Location: North of Queen Anne
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge meteor over Russia

Postby Hammer of Los » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:52 am

...

82_28, you have some subtle sight my dear.

Such a compassionate and honest man.

I'm lookin' at that video again.

It don't even look like a meteor to me.

I'm not sure what is going on exactly.

It's raining something down.

I bet the Russians are eager to collect everything they can.

Is it the mystical machine gun fire?

...
Hammer of Los
 
Posts: 3309
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:48 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby Perelandra » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:51 pm

I wonder what kind of multi-page freakouts will occur when the comets, yes more than one, come around this year. The Russians see business opportunities.

Russian Scientists Battle Meteor Speculators With Reward Offer
By Anatoly Temkin - Feb 21, 2013

Russian scientists escalated their hunt for meteor fragments from last week’s explosion over the Urals region by offering market rates in a bid to deter speculators.

The Russian Academy of Sciences and the State University of Chelyabinsk, where the blast occurred, are offering rewards for certifiable meteorites, the two groups said in a statement.

The amount of the reward depends on the size of the piece and may exceed “the average market price,” Olga Schapina, a spokeswoman for the university, said by phone. Uncertified meteorites are being advertised on the Internet for as much as 500,000 rubles ($16,500).

The Feb. 15 blast over the Chelyabinsk region, home to 3.6 million people, was the largest of its kind since the Tunguska event flattened more than 800 square miles (2,100 square kilometers) of remote Siberian forest in 1908. The Chelyabinsk meteor was about 17 meters in diameter and weighed about 10,000 tons before it hit the Earth’s atmosphere and exploded with the force of about 33 Hiroshima nuclear bombs, according to the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

Hundreds of thousands of fragments may be scattered over hundreds of kilometers, ranging in size from 1 millimeter to several centimeters, Victor Grokhovsky, a member of the academy’s meteor committee, said by phone.

Fraud Probes
“The more we collect the more we’ll learn,” Grokhovsky said. Some of the biggest pieces will probably never be found, though, because they fell deep into the taiga, he said.

Scientists from Urals Federal University in the regional capital Yekaterinburg found the first 53 fragments near Chebarkul Lake, about 80 kilometers west of Chelyabinsk, on Feb. 16-17, according to a statement from the school.

Police in Chelyabinsk are investigating sales of alleged meteor pieces via websites by anonymous people for possible fraud, the local unit of the Interior Ministry said Feb. 18.

At least 26 meteor pieces were being offered on one Russian website, Avito.ru, the country’s largest online classified advertising company, at 6 p.m. Moscow time today. Prices ranged from 500 rubles to 50,000 rubles.

One of those vendors, who identified himself as Denis Smirnov, said he recovered about 30 fragments in a snow field 20 kilometers from downtown Chelyabinsk and won’t participate in the reward program because he doesn’t trust officials.

“They could take months doing the certification process and then simply steal my find,” Smirnov said by phone from Chelyabinsk.
“The past is never dead. It's not even past.” - William Faulkner
User avatar
Perelandra
 
Posts: 1648
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:12 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge meteor over Russia

Postby justdrew » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:01 pm


By 1964 there were 1.5 million mobile phone users in the US
User avatar
justdrew
 
Posts: 11966
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 7:57 pm
Location: unknown
Blog: View Blog (11)

Re: Huge meteor over Russia

Postby FourthBase » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:07 am

http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2013 ... d#comments

(p.s. Semi-hiatus will entail lurking and occasional, infrequent posts -- especially to drop a link and run.)
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
User avatar
FourthBase
 
Posts: 7057
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 4:41 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Huge meteor over Russia

Postby NeonLX » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:14 pm

FourthBase wrote:http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/26/17105332-after-studying-russian-meteor-blast-experts-get-set-for-the-next-asteroid#comments

(p.s. Semi-hiatus will entail lurking and occasional, infrequent posts -- especially to drop a link and run.)


Hurry back! :thumbsup
America is a fucked society because there is no room for essential human dignity. Its all about what you have, not who you are.--Joe Hillshoist
User avatar
NeonLX
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:11 am
Location: Enemy Occupied Territory
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Huge meteor over Russia

Postby conniption » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:05 am

"How did all these Russians even get all this amazing footage?"


conniption
 
Posts: 2480
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

We Live in a Cosmic Shooting Gallery

Postby Allegro » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:34 pm

We Live in a Cosmic Shooting Gallery
Universe Today, Nancy Atkinson | 13MAR13


^ We Live in a Cosmic Shooting Gallery | Neil deGrasse Tyson
    In this new video from Big Think, astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson says he’s almost embarrassed for our species that it takes a warning shot across our bow before legislators take seriously the advice they’ve been receiving from astronomers about getting serious about asteroid detection and deflection; that it’s a matter of when not if Earth will get smacked by an asteroid. “But it took an actual meteor over Russia exploding with 25 times the power of the atom bomb in Hiroshima to convince people that maybe we should start doing something about it.”
Art will be the last bastion when all else fades away.
~ Timothy White (b 1952), American rock music journalist
_________________
User avatar
Allegro
 
Posts: 4456
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:44 pm
Location: just right of Orion
Blog: View Blog (144)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 58 guests