Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby compared2what? » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:49 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
Has the presumption of innocence now been formally abolished in the USA?


It hasn't.*** Formally, the defendant is not required to prove innocence at any standard. And the state is required to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

That happens at trial, when it happens, though. So we'll see.

The formally non-abolished standard for arrest is probable cause, btw. Same as searches, etc.

Are neither evidence nor motive any longer required?


Proof of motive has never been an invariable requirement for either arrest or conviction. Because they're inherently not capable of proof or disproof, more often than not.

Evidence is formally required for the state to meet its burden of proof in court. Same for probable cause, though lower standard. It's not unusual for that to be merely a formality in both cases, though. Most of the time, the public neither knows nor cares enough in either for this to matter, but fwiw:.

There's no burden on the state to prove to random members of the public that each and every piece of information and/or representation they come across in the media or online is or isn't anything, no matter where it came from or what it is, at any point in the process. Especially without being asked. All you get automatically is:

Proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in a public courtroom in order to convict.

If non-parties want to know more than that and it's not in the public record, some effort is likely to be necessary. So when the questions non-parties to the matter haven't addressed to the state aren't answered the instant they're expressed, there's usually no formal significance for due process at all, one way or the other.

There also might or might not be answers available at some/any time. But it's impossible to say in the abstract. Someone has to care enough to find out.

Oh! Almost forgot: Probable cause sufficient to withstand challenge has to exist for the arrest to be made. Formally. But that's a part of the suspect's rights. I'm not sure when, if ever, it has to be produced for the public at large. But there's more out there than they usually ever show already.. It's enough to meet the standard. And he hasn't challenged it. So moot point, in formal legal terms.


Just asking.


:tiphat:

Because this whole thing -- including this thread -- makes a fantastic, literally unbelievable, spectacle. It's just like a movie. (How could it not be?)


I think it's probably an individual-effort thing there, too.

______________

ON EDIT: Except for when that enemy combatant shit is in play, in which case: Yes, it pretty much has, formally.

Goes without saying.
.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Twyla LaSarc » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:34 pm

barracuda wrote:But really, what do you expect in a country of endless wars? Barney Fife in camos with fully body armor and an automatic, that's what. If you don't like the militarization of our society, it's not as if you didn't see it coming. ... The fairy tale that "We're fighting them there, so we don't have to fight them here"


I keep hearing the end of the A-side of Firesign Theater's "How Can You Be In Two Places...". The strident KateSmith voice singing a tune for the boys:"We're Bring the War Back Home!"



For one, I can't imagine terrorists shopping for an over-priced designer pressure cooker at W-S. I'm sure somewhere,some bridezilla with a registry there will be very disappointed.
'
I have an old school pressure cooker I once bought for an abandoned mycological experiment. I'm thinking I'll be canning food with it in the post-apocalpse. :wink
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby justdrew » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:51 pm

If it hadn't happened, they'd have had to invent it. Maybe they did.


Fox News Attacks Muslims Relentlessly In Wake Of Boston Bombing

In the days following the Boston Marathon bombings, Fox News has become a haven for talk about the extreme threats posed to the United States by Muslims. Day after day, the network's hosts and pundits have warned about an Islamic menace which is poised to take down the country.

At the most extreme has been "Fox News liberal" Bob Beckel, whose call on "The Five" to bar or severely restrict Muslim students from coming into America seemed to startle even Dana Perino, George Bush's former spokeswoman. Beckel stuck by his comments on Tuesday, saying that some of the 75,000 Muslim students in American schools are likely to harbor terrorist ambitions.

“It’s a risky situation,” he said.

"Fox & Friends" host Brian Kilmeade has also suggested putting "listening devices" in mosques, and wondered aloud why there can't be more racial profiling of Muslims and Arabs. He said this despite widespread reports that bombing suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev was actually shouted down at a mosque when he began making radical statements.

There was also Ann Coulter, who called for Tamerlan Tsarnaev's wife to be jailed for wearing a hijab, as well as a host of other virulently anti-Muslim commentators; and the state senator who has been calling for Dzokhar Tsarnaev to be tortured.

Bill O'Reilly got in on the act on his show, shouting down the head of the Council on American Islamic Relations when he tried to point out that people like the Tsarnaevs are not representative of all of Islam.

There were no signs that the campaign was letting up on Wednesday, as "Fox & Friends" took up the question of the "infection" of "radical Islam" in America.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:56 pm

I had the same feeling that we were looking at the wrong agency. Who knows? Could be a Russian-planned false flag event. The CIA, it's rumored, has certain capabilities to confuse peoples identities, to make one believe they're dealing with a different agency. Supposedly, they have gifted document forgers who would have no trouble duplicating identity cards from another agency. MC, I'm sure the Russians have the same capabilities, but of course, not as good as our CIA.

So now we have possibly disgruntled Muslims; disgruntled Chechens; a disturbed, dysfunctional, displaced family of refugees; or a couple of very pissed-off young men, reasons unknown. And despite all the niceties, the Russians would love to collapse our democratic republic.

Hope this clears things up.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby 8bitagent » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:16 pm

It's now been a week and some change. So what's the latest?

Brothers were radicalized on a diet of Alex Jones and al Qaeda's magazine
Reason for the bombing was anti war sentiments
Bombs built from al Qaeda magazine
No evidence via the surviving suspect's word or cell records that the two had any accomplices
Younger brother admits the whole thing
A large part of the narrative comes from the kidnapped white/chinese carjack victim
Thousands of Justin Bieber fans online now have a new idol to wet their knickers for
Even highlights war in the Caucusus/Chechen/Degastani region even tho there's no direct link to it

Oh and police/militarized cops/etc acted accordingly. This wasnt even close to martial law. Oh and the National Guard special units/Craft guys were just doing their job before the blasts...even tho they massively sucked at it.

Um, did I miss anything? Alex Jones/al Qaeda/anti war inspired, acted alone. Nothing that even hinted at martial law displayed.

Whew. Ok guess we can close this thread eh?
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:25 pm

I hear you, 8bit - but if you look closely - past the usual entrance blocking mascots with their grandiosity - you'll see that those sentiments are really and truly being challenged. Oh sure, they'll throw the smoke bombs to distract and provide cover, but the peeps aren't buying it. Saturation of bullshit has been reached. :)

Max Keiser said there's a new meme building - America Fatigue. I don't think it's america as much as it is bullies - and what country exemplifies bullies more completely than U.S.A?
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:39 pm

Dept. of Defense holding urban warfare exercise in Tinley Park
Village officials to residents: Don't be alarmed by training
April 23, 2013|By Gregory Pratt | Tribune reporter

Map of the former Tinley Park Mental Health Center. (Tribune illustration from Googlemaps)
The Department of Defense is holding an urban warfare training exercise at the former Tinley Park Mental Health Center site tonight and tomorrow, village officials have announced.

The government training exercises “will include building breaching and helicopter operations,” according to Mayor Ed Zabrocki.

“Building breaching” involves the use of small explosives that are used to take out doors, explained Pat Carr, the Emergency Management Agency’s director in Tinley Park.

“The Mental Health Center grounds provide a very realistic training environment for these different types of exercises,” Carr said.

Village officials are notifying the public about the training exercises to avoid frightening local citizens after the Boston Marathon bombing last week.

“The concern we have is that, when this occurs...on the hands of what happened in Boston, it's gonna make people's nerve-endings a little more sensitive,” Zabrocki said.

The Tinley Park Mental Health Center will be closed to the public during the event. Carr said there shouldn’t be too much noise from the helicopters or the explosives.

In the past two years, the Mental Health Center has been used during training exercises by the Illinois State Police, the Cook County Sheriff’s Office, Chicago Police and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, in addition to Tinley Park’s public safety agencies.

“What’s unique about this one is that it goes on multiple days and it’s probably the largest of what we’ve had so far,” Zabrocki said.



Village officials are notifying the public about the training exercises to avoid frightening local citizens after the Boston Marathon bombing last week.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby 8bitagent » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:41 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:I hear you, 8bit - but if you look closely - past the usual entrance blocking mascots with their grandiosity - you'll see that those sentiments are really and truly being challenged. Oh sure, they'll throw the smoke bombs to distract and provide cover, but the peeps aren't buying it. Saturation of bullshit has been reached. :)

Max Keiser said there's a new meme building - America Fatigue. I don't think it's america as much as it is bullies - and what country exemplifies bullies more completely than U.S.A?



I agree, totally. It's just surreal yet predictable the "lone gunmen" meme would once again be reinforced so quickly on top of "they did it because of anti war and conspiracy views...oh and AL QAEDA propaganda!"
(on top of the "it wasnt martial law but even if it was it was totally legit and necessary" viewpoints)

It's such a kneeslapper...I'd be laughing were it not for the images of grotesquely mangled victims and dead Bostonians.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby The Consul » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:06 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:Consul, thank you for your posts. that one and this one, too: http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36259&start=1335#p499757


My....pleasure. Our consciousness is like a pin cushion for countless injections of the dripping shitlies of society. A multi-headed corporate succubus that will lovingly roll over our smoldering, toxic corpses as she stamps us with the label “cleared.” If that is the way the buck will be made, that is the way our bodies will be laid. Clearly she is working overtime now having delivered us this new and improved kind of terrorist. A sanitized version. A hybrid between Tim McVeigh and a ready for prime time al-Zarqawi. It is as curious to me that people believe that “they hate us for our freedom” as some might believe martyrdom will skip jail and go directly to heaven . But, as most people on the planet believe – you gotta believe in something, best to stick with the garbage they rammed through your brain as soon as you could assimilate the difference between a chair and a table. Whatever happens, don’t panic and stay adjusted. So, swallowing your own culture’s lies makes more sense than dabbling with that of the caliph. We are the details that are in the devil. We are the virus that is having this American Dream. And we can’t but count ourselves lucky to have been born here as opposed to Mogadishu.
Dancing with the Stars will eventually go off the air. It will be replaced by an X-Factorlike audience participation game show. “Is It Torture Yet?” After signing a twenty five page waver contestants will see how long it takes them to extract information from a person of interest.
As they yank out their fucking toenails & teeth, screaming “you don’t really believe that shit, do you?” The crowd will go wild. Shouting USA! USA! USA! And the once handsome curly headed boy as handsome as Prince, now spattered with blood will nod his head, and sputter in bubbly blood. “Yes. I do.”
The crowd becomes solemn. An atmosphere of ritualistic problem solving descends on the audience.
A Catholic priest and Evangelical missionary emerge to duel with whips and knives to see who gets to baptize the terrorist as the syringe full of acid is plunged in the young martyr’s eye. He tries to scream God is Great. The priest shoves his fist in his mouth as he intones “In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.”
Only a smattering of people in the crowd are left slack jawed as the bulk of the mass rises to their feet as if they were sperm ejaculating in an ecstatic instant through the optic fiber of the Free, chanting over and over USA! USA! USA! Lost in the mad, narcissistic euphoria of a freedom that is so free it never has to wonder who hijacked their own religion.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:07 pm

Misha is a good friend
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby lupercal » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:18 pm

Even if we accept that it's a covert operation of some kind that doesn't get us far as we still have to figure out whodunnit, i.e. which agencies, whose governments, and/or what private outfits planned and executed. This is a perplexing one with lots of red herrings, like the Kerry connection. Per wiki Kerry has some say-so in covert ops:

The Special Activities Division (SAD) is a division of the CIA's National Clandestine Service, responsible for Covert Action and "Special Activities". These special activities include covert political influence and paramilitary operations. The division is overseen by the United States Secretary of State[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_operation

But that's wiki, and if as I suspect this was basically a neo-con operation of a piece with Benghazi and 911, wouldn't they want the trail to lead to Kerry? Apparently he usually participates in the marathon, and this year his plane was just touching down in the US on return from another basically triumphant mid-east tour when the bombs went off. Personally at this point I'd rule out CIA and go with privatized and/or offshored actors possibly with DHS/FBI mole assistance.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby brainpanhandler » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:38 pm



This:

http://www.ipsnews.net/2010/01/afghanis ... civilians/

is what happens in Afghanistan.

It's what will likely happen here eventually to some extent or another and in some respects you could argue it already does. Just not in the neighborhoods most of us live in and not with such a spotlight on it. There is every reason to be spooked by this. We all know it's a series of stages and we should be rightly suspicious, while we're still allowed to be. But let's not confuse what happened in Boston with what happened/is happening in Afghanistan.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby Burnt Hill » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:59 pm

Twyla LaSarc wrote:



For one, I can't imagine terrorists shopping for an over-priced designer pressure cooker at W-S. I'm sure somewhere,some bridezilla with a registry there will be very disappointed.
'
I have an old school pressure cooker I once bought for an abandoned mycological experiment. I'm thinking I'll be canning food with it in the post-apocalpse. :wink

I am currently in the market for a pressure cooker for my own mycology experiment :bigsmile in order to combat cluster headaches. I wonder if it will put me on a list somewhere? Though I will probably buy it from the local thrift shop and pay cash, makes you wonder though.
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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby barracuda » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:00 pm

Now we learn Dzhokhar was unarmed in the boat.

The Watertown police chief doesn't seem to know that, though:

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Re: Two explosions at Boston marathon finish line

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:02 pm

brainpanhandler wrote: But let's not confuse what happened in Boston with what happened/is happening in Afghanistan.


Boston bombing suspect cites U.S. wars as motivation, officials say

just the reason
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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