David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:42 pm

Searcher08 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:58 am wrote:
compared2what? » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:05 pm wrote:
Searcher08 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:40 am wrote:
My suggestion is to regard me as a 'frenemy' a friend and enemy, who you work with fully on the other thread and create perhaps one of the first pathways for an entire set of people to take their first steps in activism, while regarding me also as a deeply unpleasent racist fascist neo-Nazi
scumbucket at worst and an idiotic dissembling trolling wisdomless fuckwit at best
:mrgreen:


Same for you, Searcher. WRT the hoping it will help.

And wrt the "You can understand how that might be read as an unjust accusation by someone who hadn't called you a deeply unpleasant racist fascist neo-Nazi scumbucket at worst and an idiotic dissembling trolling wisdomless fuckwit at best, right?"

And wrt the "Speak up if it's not sufficiently helpful, please." Because you shouldn't have to feel that way.


c2w,

AD did argue that SLAD, SLiM myself and CW were racist Holocaust denying Neo Nazi sympathisers
1 Slim, SLAD, S08 are defenders of Icke
2 Icke + pals = racist Holocaust denying Neo Nazi sympathisers
3 those who defend Icke = pals

therefore inferring SLAD, slim, S08 are racist Holocaust denying Neo Nazi sympathisers

This is what I was saying about it being contextual - when asked are we, as evidenced by CW, he ignored, avoided the question. equivocated.


I don't see that context. What I see are repeated clarifications that specifically and categorically state that he is not accusing the poster in question of hatred or prejudice (such as the two bolded here)...

Not saying you want to propagate racism but unfortunately you do endorse it, no matter how good your intentions...


...but that he is categorically saying that the material they're endorsing propagates racism.

Look.

I'd say that there's indisputably a threshold legitimate case to be made that Icke's work propagates anti-Semitism. (Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc.) I myself wouldn't make it in those terms. But that's not the point. I'd say such a case exists. If you think that's more disputable than I do, let me know.

But assuming that you don't:

If you put saying that the material propagates anti-Semitism out of bounds on the grounds that it makes people who disagree feel like they're being called anti-Semites, how are the people who find the case that it does both legitimate and persuasive supposed to express their views?

And how are they supposed to say to those who feel accused of anti-Semitism that they're not being, if:

(a) saying: "I'm not saying that's what you want or intend, but that's what endorsing the material does" isn't it?; and
(b) those who feel accused don't explain why it isn't?

And I'm asking that on my own behalf. Because, on the face of it, I'd say that's a plain, literal avowal that no personal accusation is being made. So if it isn't, I want and need an explanation of why not that I can understand.

I mean, it looks to me like he's repeatedly explicitly stated that he was not imputing hateful sentiments or motives to the people who were asking him about it. Seriously. I don't want to be blind or insensitive to it if that's not the case. But I need an assist.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby slimmouse » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:43 pm

Perhaps the kneejerk baby-bathwater reaction itself is the social change we need to create in order for the masses to come to understand the reality of conspiracy and what needs to change in order to improve the world?


Unquestionably one of the best quotes in this thread. When people who have so much in common are telling others to dissasociate themselves from anyone who has followed Icke ( by that I mean, read, seen or listened to him), then weve all failed at the very first hurdle.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:44 pm

compared2what? » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:42 pm wrote:I mean, it looks to me like he's repeatedly explicitly stated that he was not imputing hateful sentiments or motives to the people who were asking him about it. Seriously. I don't want to be blind or insensitive to it if that's not the case. But I need an assist.


I would say AD has consistently been clear about that, yes.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:52 pm

Searcher08 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:58 am wrote:
AD did argue that SLAD, SLiM myself and CW were racist Holocaust denying Neo Nazi sympathisers
1 Slim, SLAD, S08 are defenders of Icke
2 Icke + pals = racist Holocaust denying Neo Nazi sympathisers
3 those who defend Icke = pals


It's a long thread, so I'm not sure whether he did say "Icke is an anti-Semite" in a context that read as "Icke hates Jews." But at a minimum, I don't think that's an entirely fair summary even of what he's saying about Icke (ie -- wasn't calling him hate-filled, or evil, or ill-intentioned, or a bad man with bad neo-Nazi ends in mind who hated Jews and told hateful lies about them out of hatred, etc.) The reverse, if anything, I would have said.

...

I guess I'll go check.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:05 pm

psynapz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:36 pm wrote: Take what you need and leave the rest?


I could use that argument for Hitler or pol pot or George Bush or any number of psychopathic murderous assholes that occasionally had something interesting to say that I could agree with.

(and no, I'm not saying Icke is analogous to Hitler or pol pot or George Bush. I'm using them as extreme examples to illustrate my point)

What is it that one can get from Icke that cannot be gotten elsewhere?
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby psynapz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:17 pm

In Icke's Tales From the Time Loop, which I haven't read in years, he makes the case that Zionism is a creation of non-semitic Israeli settlers who are ethnic Khazars, and that Semites actually constitute a minority in Israel, so by that definition he doesn't hold anti-semitic views. Rather, he regards the Semitic people as cultural victims in a zealous war propagated by essentially an invading species of caucasians that also practice the Jewish faith. If anything, he's anti-khazar.

For that matter, taking the best of his message into account, he doesn't strike me as anti-anybody by race, just by creed insofar as it supports fascism. Particularly the corrupt power elite of the world, whatever happens to be true about their private lives and dimensional origins. He just wants us to create new realities by literally any and every peaceful means at our disposal that will outperform the prevailing realities of the power elite such that their power is removed and the systemic rewards of engaging in corrupt practices dissolve into meaninglessness so humanity can get on with our internal and societal evolution without all the sandbagging we're currently dealing with.

Not sure where that puts me on the flowchart, but I'm sure I'll be informed of that forthwith.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:23 pm

FWIW, speaking of context:

Seems to me that this is formulaically very similar to the conflicts that have arisen on most of the misogyny/sexism-themed threads, although that's gotten much, much better over time.

But basically, in that iteration it's:

    STEP ONE: Someone who wants to talk about a misogyny-sexism-themed topic starts a thread.
    STEP TWO: Posters who feel that whenever anyone speaks of misogyny or sexism at all they're being called misogynist or sexist show up and start throwing counter-punches.
    STEP THREE: The people who want to talk about misogyny-sexism respond defensively and/or evasively and/or reassuringly and/or angrily, while reiterating the basic message: No, we want to talk about the topic.
    STEP FOUR: The posters who feel accused start arguing that it's really women who have power over men, as demonstrated primarily by the mere existence of concepts such as misogyny and sexism, which women use to cudgel everyone into submission, QED, the whole subject is self-mooting.
    STEP FIVE: Bitter antagonism on and off until lockdom.

I understand that it's not easy for anyone. But there's gotta be a better way.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby DrEvil » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:25 pm

What is it that one can get from Icke that cannot be gotten elsewhere?


I'm wondering the same. What's the point of wading through all the nonsense from Icke, just to get at a few nuggets of truth when there are plenty of people saying the same thing, but without shape-shifting lizards and moon-matrixes and two-dimensional mono-atomic gold?

And anyway - these lizards can't be all that, considering that they accidentally blew up their own planet with nukes. I mean, seriously. Some of the things Icke says are so patently stupid it boggles the mind.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:33 pm

brainpanhandler » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:12 pm wrote:
Searcher08 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:58 am wrote:
compared2what? » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:05 pm wrote:
Searcher08 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:40 am wrote:
My suggestion is to regard me as a 'frenemy' a friend and enemy, who you work with fully on the other thread and create perhaps one of the first pathways for an entire set of people to take their first steps in activism, while regarding me also as a deeply unpleasent racist fascist neo-Nazi
scumbucket at worst and an idiotic dissembling trolling wisdomless fuckwit at best
:mrgreen:


Same for you, Searcher. WRT the hoping it will help.

And wrt the "You can understand how that might be read as an unjust accusation by someone who hadn't called you a deeply unpleasant racist fascist neo-Nazi scumbucket at worst and an idiotic dissembling trolling wisdomless fuckwit at best, right?"

And wrt the "Speak up if it's not sufficiently helpful, please." Because you shouldn't have to feel that way.


c2w,

AD did argue that SLAD, SLiM myself and CW were racist Holocaust denying Neo Nazi sympathisers
1 Slim, SLAD, S08 are defenders of Icke
2 Icke + pals = racist Holocaust denying Neo Nazi sympathisers
3 those who defend Icke = pals

therefore inferring SLAD, slim, S08 are racist Holocaust denying Neo Nazi sympathisers

This is what I was saying about it being contextual - when asked are we, as evidenced by CW, he ignored, avoided the question. equivocated.


Wow. That is total bullshit. And I won't waste one moment more explaining why it's total bullshit. You already know why.


Funny. Speaking from my point of view as someone who is invested fully in this conversation and one of the targets whose interest, therefore, is in line with Searhcer08's, SLAD's, and slim's this doesn't strike me as total bullshit at all.

I could explain to you why it is not total bullshit, but I already have, several times, explained it in this thread.
Searcher has also taken GREAT pains to carefully explain why he has come to the conclusions he has come to as well.

You cannot negate not only all of that effort but the perceptions of what has happened by the four of us who are honestly, clearly and thoroughly explaining to you why what AD has said in this thread has painted all four of us as people who support and engage in racist activities and ideas.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby psynapz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:34 pm

brainpanhandler wrote:
psynapz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:36 pm wrote:Take what you need and leave the rest?

I could use that argument for Hitler or pol pot or George Bush or any number of psychopathic murderous assholes that occasionally had something interesting to say that I could agree with.

And why not? If someone's health improved from going vegetarian, and they said it was, oddly (because they're not a neo-nazi), due to the fact that Hitler was, what's wrong with that? If someone decides to get into painting idyllic countryside scenes on canvas, who cares if they were trying to one-up old Adolph? We need more beautiful art.

I might be more into broccoli than I naturally would have been had it not been for GHWB being unapologetically anti-broccoli. I don't really know. But I do know I get a lot more ascorbic acid and micronutrients I wouldn't otherwise be getting in my diet.

Bush was also right that we need a new world order. The current one ain't working.

brainpanhandler wrote:What is it that one can get from Icke that cannot be gotten elsewhere?

Who cares whether you can get it elsewhere? We need a million David Ickes with their ten thousand hobby horses reinforcing each others messages so the Venn overlaps of their messages amplify into unstoppable waves of awareness and action throughout the Venn overlaps of their varying spheres of influence. The wrong ideas, just like the currently-prevailing ones, will fall away over time as superior narratives gain strength through the manifold reinforcement of confirmed effectiveness of whatever actions carry forth from those narratives. You can't control this by being a little cryptofascist within your own sphere of influence, you can only chill the flow of free thought that sparks brilliant new ideas and organizes action around them. Who cares who or what gets people excited about making a change? What's important is that they do.

Like Bucky said, just make a better system and people will naturally gravitate towards it for the fact of its undeniable superiority. Lizards or not, the message that we can collectively create powerful and democratic new realities to overcome a seemingly-insurmountable totalitarian global power structure is undeniably superior to the message that the system works and to please stay within the established mainstream bounds of sensibility when discussing it.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:38 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:44 pm wrote:
compared2what? » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:42 pm wrote:I mean, it looks to me like he's repeatedly explicitly stated that he was not imputing hateful sentiments or motives to the people who were asking him about it. Seriously. I don't want to be blind or insensitive to it if that's not the case. But I need an assist.


I would say AD has consistently been clear about that, yes.


so if I were to put up posters in your neighbourhood that said "unfortunately, anyone who lives at <your address> supports neo-nazi and racist ideologies" that doesn't count as calling you a supporter of racism, then?

Let's put it this way: There's a book at the library. You want to read it. You take it out, but the minute you do bells and lights go off and an announcement says, "Warning, someone in this room is reading material that the library has decided is racist and has a neo-Nazi anti-semitic agenda!!!"

Does the library owe you an apology or do you decide that you've done something that deserved it and from now on are those are just the rules under which you resign yourself to operating.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby psynapz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:45 pm

DrEvil wrote:What's the point of wading through all the nonsense from Icke, just to get at a few nuggets of truth when there are plenty of people saying the same thing, but without shape-shifting lizards and moon-matrixes and two-dimensional mono-atomic gold?

What we need is mass-awareness. People pay attention to different things. We all have our different paths that led us here, for instance. Our journeys to this board are an incredible lesson in how to take what we have learned on our journeys to and through this place and feed it forward into constructive efforts to make things better.

If you already know about Icke's nuggets of truth, that's wonderful. You can't assume everyone else does, or that the path you took to gain those nuggets would be a feasible path for anyone else in particular.

Since the potential paths to nuggets of useful truths are innumerable, so too must be the messengers, such that the raising of awareness and organizing into action grows ever more geometrically. Here we prototype every day the sorting-out process of the edges and overlaps between the nuggets we each hold, and so too must every individual confronted with any aspect of the big lies that control and/or seek to control us all, regardless of where they first heard about it.

Though, I certainly must concede that I merely hope that's a realistic outlook.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:50 pm

Well, personally, CW, I buy books online for that precise reason. But along the lines of your thought experiment, here is my own:

AD: Hey, pal, what are you reading?

WR: This? It's Julius Evola's "Revolt Against the Modern World."

AD: Really? Were you aware that Julius Evola has been frequently accused of harboring racist and fascist views?

WR: Yep.

AD: So does that worry you?

WR: Nope.

AD: Well, it should.

WR: Well, it doesn't.

*both exit stage left*
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:52 pm

psynapz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:17 pm wrote:In Icke's Tales From the Time Loop, which I haven't read in years, he makes the case that Zionism is a creation of non-semitic Israeli settlers who are ethnic Khazars, and that Semites actually constitute a minority in Israel, so by that definition he doesn't hold anti-semitic views. Rather, he regards the Semitic people as cultural victims in a zealous war propagated by essentially an invading species of caucasians that also practice the Jewish faith. If anything, he's anti-khazar.

For that matter, taking the best of his message into account, he doesn't strike me as anti-anybody by race, just by creed insofar as it supports fascism. Particularly the corrupt power elite of the world, whatever happens to be true about their private lives and dimensional origins. He just wants us to create new realities by literally any and every peaceful means at our disposal that will outperform the prevailing realities of the power elite such that their power is removed and the systemic rewards of engaging in corrupt practices dissolve into meaninglessness so humanity can get on with our internal and societal evolution without all the sandbagging we're currently dealing with.

Not sure where that puts me on the flowchart, but I'm sure I'll be informed of that forthwith.


excellent post, thank you for your participation in this thread, psynapz.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby American Dream » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:58 pm

compared2what? » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:52 pm wrote:
Searcher08 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:58 am wrote:
AD did argue that SLAD, SLiM myself and CW were racist Holocaust denying Neo Nazi sympathisers
1 Slim, SLAD, S08 are defenders of Icke
2 Icke + pals = racist Holocaust denying Neo Nazi sympathisers
3 those who defend Icke = pals


It's a long thread, so I'm not sure whether he did say "Icke is an anti-Semite" in a context that read as "Icke hates Jews." But at a minimum, I don't think that's an entirely fair summary even of what he's saying about Icke (ie -- wasn't calling him hate-filled, or evil, or ill-intentioned, or a bad man with bad neo-Nazi ends in mind who hated Jews and told hateful lies about them out of hatred, etc.) The reverse, if anything, I would have said.



Just a very quick comment here:

1 is true, 2 &3 are not. So essentially Searcher took a kernel of truth and made it into a misleading/untrue story.

I do think Icke spreads racist ideas, though more recently he has tried to rein himself in and be more subtle/ambiguous what with "Khazarians", "Rothschilds", heavily spun holocaust revisionism, and the like.

This doesn't mean I think that Icke wants to be racist. I think it's much more likely that he just has a screw loose and maybe some bad "friends".

As to those mentioned as defenders, I just think they're too gullible and would probably benefit from developing their politics more. None I think would ever want to be racist, or otherwise oppressive.



Over and out!
Last edited by American Dream on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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