Medication time.

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Re: Medication time.

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:35 pm

Canadian_watcher » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:10 pm wrote:gosh slim, I like you very much, but I hate it when people answer for other people. Still, it's enlightening to see where you're at on the C2W mindfuck spectrum.

I used to think the same thing.


Come on, man. Disagreement is one thing. Condemnation from on high for unspecified bad acts on personal grounds is another.

Show me what I do that's mindfuckery besides hold divergent beliefs from you on the basis of reasoning and evidence that anyone is free to judge or verify for themselves.

Or take it the fuck back.

________________

ON EDIT:

You understand that without an explanation, we now appear to be in a situation where someone who's accurately pointed to instances of children being cruelly mistreated, hurt and/or abused is being condemned, reviled and discredited on personal grounds for ideological reasons.

That's really not okay. An apology would be appreciated.
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Re: Medication time.

Postby slimmouse » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:24 pm

There is of course a very natural cure whcih would prevent the vast majority of illnesses, namely to eat well.

Would that such were a given in todays age, despite the fact that it could and should be.
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Re: Medication time.

Postby Plutonia » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:33 pm

I'm going to jump in here just to amplify this little part of what C2W said:

(c) The Co$, who are in it because vaccines are pharma and pharma is psychotropics and psychotropics are psychiatry, which is an industry of death.


The C0$ is a major covert driver and framer of the vax/anti-vax debate, so in order to understand it, how it has been framed and why, it's necessary to look at their involvement, which requires a lot of research because they hide themselves. The online autistic community is probably most aware of their activities because we have been the targets of their hate campaigns (like Amanda Baggs and Kevin Leitch) and have had to deal with them, wherever autistics gather to talk about autism.

The most often unrecognized aspect of the C0$'s covert manipulation of the vaccine debate is their stated intention to make their purification model of health as ubiquitous as jogging - I'm paraphrasing from a document that is out there somewhere. They did this very successfully with their addiction recovery model and clinics. All well and good perhaps, but it's an obvious extension of their belief that all our problems - medical, psychological, emotional - stem from our having been contaminated by thetans ie fragments of alien souls, and is therefore based on an ideology of purity. That is dangerous. Within the C0$, it is ideologically acceptable, if one is unable to purify one's current "meat-body" to exchange it for another one ie suicide, because they believe in eternal return and the urgency of their mission - to "clear the planet" of thetans.

They have branded their ideologically-based ill-health model as "bio-medical". So there are a large number of people attempting to apply various "bio-med" treatments to cure ie purify, autistic children, of which MMS (bleach) is the most ideologically naked. Because the model is faulty - autism cannot be "cured" through removing imagined contaminants, that leads to ideological crises/amplification - non-cured autistics are viewed as "bad" ie suppressive persons, and thus you have all kinds of negative framing of autistics in the media.

Just to be clear, the situation, as I see it is that, there are the well-meaning parents who are concerned for their children's health; there is the corrupt pharmaceutical industry + government collusion; there are non-corrupt health practitioners and real alternative health practitioners; there are the historical anti-vax organizations; and then there is the C0$, working in the background, funding and directing an apparent grass-roots movement, playing all of them in order to further their ideology and influence. And that includes their well-meaning members, no doubt.

But the C0$'s bio-medical model leads to situations like this, where the carers of an autistic boy murdered him when he failed to respond to bio-medical treatments:

WARNING! THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE CONTAINS A DESCRIPTION OF THE BRUTAL MURDER OF AN AUTISTIC CHILD

“Autism biomed” and the murder of Alex Spourdalakis
Posted by Orac on June 14, 2013
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Sometimes, in the course of blogging, I come across a story that I don’t know what to make of. Sometimes, it’s a quack or a crank taking a seemingly science-based position. Sometimes it’s something out of the ordinary. Other times, it’s a story that’s just weird, such that I strongly suspect that something else is going on but can’t prove it. So it was a few months ago when I came across the story of Alex Spourdalakis, a 14-year-old autistic boy who became a cause célèbre of the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism.

I first noticed the story in early March when perusing AoA to see what the merry band of antivaccine propagandists was up to I came across a post by Lisa Goes entitled Day 19: Chicago Hospital Locks Down Autistic Patient. In the post was a shocking picture of a large 14-year-old boy in a a hospital bed in four point restraints. He was naked, except for a sheet covering his genitals. A huge gash was torn in the bedsheet, revealing the black vinyl of the hospital bed beneath. The boy’s name, we were informed, was Alex Spourdalakis. Further down in the post was another, equally shocking, picture of Alex that, according to Goes, showed severe dermatitis on Alex’s back due to the hospital sheets. The photos shocked me for two reasons. First, if the story was as advertised (something to be doubted always about anything posted to AoA), for once I thought that I might be agreeing with Goes and thinking that AoA was doing a good thing. Second, however, I was extremely disturbed by the publication of such revealing photos of the boy. Undoubtedly, Alex’s mother must have given permission. What kind of mother posts pictures like that of her son for all the world to see? Then there appeared a Facebook page, Help Support Alex Spourdalakis, which pled for readers to help the Spourdalakis family.

As I said, something didn’t seem right.

Now I know that something definitely wasn’t right, but I still can’t yet figure out what was wrong at that time three months ago. What is wrong now is that over the weekend Alex was murdered by his mother and caregiver, stabbed to death, in fact. The murder was carefully premeditated and truly gruesome:

Convinced that Alex Spourdalakis’ severe autism was growing worse, his mother and caregiver allegedly planned for at least a week to kill the River Grove teenager and themselves.

But the alleged murder plot initially went awry last weekend when the stocky 14-year-old didn’t succumb to an overdose of his prescription medications.

After waiting for several hours, Dorothy Spourdalakis, fatally stabbed her 225-pound son four times with a kitchen knife, then cut his wrist so deeply she nearly severed his hand, Cook County prosecutors said Wednesday.

His caregiver, Jolanta Agata Skrodzka, later stabbed the family cat with the same knife, then washed the utensil and put it back in a butcher’s block, prosecutors said.

Their suicide pact never succeeded: Both women took drug overdoses, then locked themselves in the bedroom with the slain teenager.

They were found semi-conscious inside the second-floor apartment on Sunday afternoon when Alex’s father and uncle came to check on the teen, prosecutors said as the women appeared in court to face first-degree murder charges.


More details are described in this Chicago Tribune story about the murder. Dorothy Spourdalakis and Alex’s caregiver Jolanta Agata Skrodzka had apparently discussed the plan to kill Alex using an overdose of prescription sleeping pills and explained why they did it in a letter. Apparently they killed the cat because they didn’t want it to end up in a shelter after they committed suicide. We also learned that police had been to the house several times to assist with transporting Alex to doctors’ appointments because “he was big and strong and unwilling to go to the doctor.”

As I read articles and posts about Alex Spourdalakis, going back to March, I had the distinct impression that there was more going on that met the eye. Lisa Goes might have been right. That has to be conceded. But while I occasionally looked at stories about Alex on AoA, they just didn’t seem to pass the “smell test” to me. Something, it seemed to me, was being left out. Neither did a lot of the claims seem entirely credible. At the very least, it was very clear that a highly biased, one-sided version of events was being presented. For instance, Goes claimed that Alex was kept in four point restraints 24 hours a day at two different hospitals, Gottleib Hospital and Loyola University Medical Center (LUMC), for 19 days:

According to her, at 14 years of age, Alex has a diagnosis of severe autism and cognitive impairment. He is non-verbal. In October of 2012, Alex began to suffer neurological events that prevented a healthy sleep cycle. He was awake for many hours at a time. Agitation and aggression ensued as a result of sleep deprivation. During this time, symptoms and behaviors that were indicative of severe gastrointestinal distress developed as well. A cycle of constipation, diarrhea and formed bowel movements surfaced and became a chronic problem. On February 16th at 5:00 am, with the assistance of police and paramedics, Dorothy took her inconsolable and highly-distressed non-verbal child to Gottlieb Hospital in Melrose Park, Illinois.

Because of Alex’s physical aggression, he was placed in locked restraints. At that time, Dorothy did not know the ER would be their home for the next several days, as Alex lay naked, in locked restraints, suffering bouts of violent vomiting, severe constipation and diarrhea. Neither she nor Alex bathed for the next 13 days while hospital staff and administrators attempted to devise a plan to care for Alex. “He was given Colace for his constipation and sometimes it would take security staff and nurses more than 15 minutes to arrive to help unshackle him so he could use the bathroom,” Dorothy explained. “Alex would scream as best he could when he knew he was going to have a vomiting episode, but security took several minutes to respond so Alex would lay in his own vomit, waiting to be released by a representative of security. He would be wiped down and returned to the same restraints.”


Sure, it was possible that the boy was being abused so horribly, first at Gottleib Hospital and then at LUMC, but it seemed damned unlikely to me, although at the time I had no way of refuting or confirming the increasingly lurid stories being posted at AoA about Alex. Still, I knew that tere are very strict laws these days about patient restraint. The last time I ever had to order four point restraints was over 14 years ago, back when I moonlighted as a trauma attending in, yes, the Chicago area, the same metropolitan area where Alex lived and died. Before that I sometimes had to deal with the restraint of patients when as a resident I rotated on the trauma services at the hospitals where I trained. Sometimes patients with head injuries or severe intoxication would be violent and require restraint. There were always a strict protocol that we followed, even back then. My understanding is that the protocols have only gotten more strict. Restraining a patient, particularly a minor, is not something that is undertaken lightly, nor should it be. To believe the AoA account, we have to believe that a severely autistic teenaged boy would be kept in the emergency room for several days (also very, very unlikely) and put in restraints in an abusive fashion at not just one but two different hospitals, continuing after Alex was transferred from Gottlieb Hospital to Loyola University Medical Center on February 28. Actually, it was three different hospitals, because later Alex was shown in four point restraints at Lutheran General Hospital during his last admission in May. More on that later.

Missing from these stories was a clear and cogent explanation of why Alex was ever admitted to Gottleib Hospital and then transferred to LUMC in the first place. It’s mentioned in some places that Alex was “inconsolable, highly-distressed and suffering bouts of violent vomiting, severe constipation and diarrhea.” I had to look for clues to explain it, and, I must admit, I still remain puzzled. Certainly, this Change.org petition demanding that LUMC provide what Ms. Spourdalakis considers to be “standard medical treatment,” which to her included gastroenterology. Peppered through various reports were indications that Alex had multiple allergies and GI issues. Having observed a fair amount of autism quackery on the Internet, these terms were huge red flags to me that strongly suggested to me the possibility that Ms. Spourdalakis was heavily into “autism biomed.” Another hint as to what might have been really going on comes from reports of a care plan conference on March 12. Allegedly (we only have one side of the story given that the hospital and doctors are bound by HIPAA privacy law not to discuss the case), if Ms. Spourdalakis failed to agree completely to the care plan Alex would be placed in the care of the Illinois Division of Family and Children Services (DFCS).

Elsewhere, I found references to demands that LUMC consult with an “Autism Medical Specialist to ensure Alex’s dietary needs were met to ensure his food allergies and intolerance’s were not “aggravating any underlying gastrointestinal or other medical conditions that may also cause adverse behaviors,” which sounds suspiciously like an autism biomed quack. In this post, Lisa Goes described a visit to LUMC with Jeanna Reed of Autism Is Medical, whose website if chock full of standard antivaccine and “autism biomed” tropes, such as a section on mitochondrial disorders, banners asking if autism is vaccine injury, and the like. It’s actually a pretty bare-bones website with lots of bugs, but the intent is clear. AIM is antivaccine to the core, and we already know that Lisa Goes is antivaccine, given that she has been a regular at the (Not-So) Thinking Moms’ Revolution. Indeed, in this very post, Lisa Goes unwittingly portrayed Jeanna Reed as ranting and haranguing Alex’s doctors with pleas to read quack studies and claims that “many of these children present with bowel disease and mitochondrial dysfunction. He could have GERD, duodenitis, esophagitis, ulcers in the small intestines, colitis. How can we know if we don’t test?” This was pure autism biomed rhetoric, leavened with the arrogance of ignorance. When one of the doctors referred to autism as a “mystery,” Goes totally lost it, yelling, “No! No! It’s not. It’s a medical illness that causes bad behavior. All you have to do IS READ*!”

Based on what was in retrospect in plain sight on the antivaccine blogs, it’s hard for me not to suspect that Dorothy Spourdalakis was subjecting Alex to “autism biomed” quackery, that she came to know Ms. Reed and thereby spread her story to the wider autism biomed movement at large. If my suspicions are ultimately revealed to be true, it would certainly explain a lot. Certainly, it would explain why Lisa Goes and AoA rallied to Alex’s cause so enthusiastically. It would also explain why the hero of the autism biomed movement himself, the brave maverick doctor to rule all brave maverick doctors, Andrew Wakefield, visited Alex during Autism One and posted to YouTube on the Autism Media Channel a video making an appeal for Alex:

Note that I’ve saved this video, in case it goes down the ol’ Internet memory hole. Also note that, in this incredibly creepy video (is it just me, or does Wakefield look creepier and creepier each time I see him?), Wakefield stated that Alex was scheduled to go to long term psychiatric care in 72 hours, as if that were the worst fate imaginable. He appealed for funds to allow Alex to be transferred to a facility where he would “get the care he needs.” What isn’t clear is why Alex was back in the hospital again. I say “back in the hospital” because on March 23 his mother published a post on AoA announcing that Alex was being discharged from LUMC. She thanked everyone at AoA, but she also revealed her antivaccine proclivities:

It is during times like this we as a family realize our full potential. We know no one will help us unless we help ourselves. The continued abuse, medical neglect, discrimination and ignorance have to stop. Vaccines have maimed too many already and there are many more to come. The CDC’s latest stats confirm that. We are not going away, nor are we giving up. My son Alex is just one of millions of children and adults who no longer will be silenced.

We as a group have been deceived and lied to long enough. Our children have paid and are continuing to pay the ultimate price because of greed. The health care system has failed terribly. It is our responsibility to continue to bring about change.

Please continue to follow Alex on his journey toward better health. Allow us to be a part of your lives. Our strength will continue to come from everyone and anyone who would like to continue with us. Alex will hopefully get the medical testing he needs but was denied until now. So much needs to happen in order for us ensure his recovery and I still need so much help! Please continue to follow my team of helpers for updates and fundraising efforts. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate and value every single one of you who have gotten us to this place. Thank God for the internet and facebook!


To me, this was the strongest suggestive evidence that Ms. Spourdalakis had likely been subjecting Alex to autism biomed quackery. The language was pure “autism recovery” language. The antivaccine sentiment was there. So was the conspiracy mongering against conventional medicine and big pharma. In another story, I learned that another antivaccinationist and advocate of “autism biomed,” Polly Tommey of the Autism Media Channel was involved, and Ms. Spourdalakis claimed that all Alex needed was “something simple, in the country, where he can run around, get the treatment that he needs so he can get better.” For some reason, however, in May Alex was back in the hospital. When the new reports of Alex in the hospital started coming out, even AoA denizens and supporters wondered what had happened, for instance, on the Facebook post announcing Andrew Wakefield’s appeal. The response from Jeanna Reed:

He’s back in the hospital. The sad truth is that this will be what is left, the only path…unless we start to treat the MEDICAL conditions, provide an appropriate treatment plan and support the families while doing it. A VERY TALL ORDER but one that has to become the norm. Alex does NOT belong in a psychiatric facility. Sadly, this is the only option so many face when all of the above is not available. We did our very best to try and help them, and will continue to do what we can but it’s not enough. We know so many who (if given the opportunity) could heal. So complicated…at the minimum PRAY for them and again realize this could be any one of our children.


I don’t know about you, but if I had seen this at the time it was actually published instead of now, knowing the ultimate outcome, I would have still found the language ominous. In any case, not long after Wakefield’s appeal, Alex was released from the hospital. Andrew Wakefield provided a statement to the Daily Mail after Alex’s death explaining what happened and covering his ass in the process:

On Sunday May 26, members of the Autism Media Channel (AMC) went to the Lutheran General Hospital in Park Ridge, Illinois. There we visited the late Alex Spourdalakis, his mother Dorothy, and his Godmother. Alex was in four-point restraint and apparently refusing to eat or drink.

His mother was beyond exhaustion and despair. The main reason for her despair was the prospect of Alex being sent to a long-stay psychiatric hospital and heavily medicated with behavior-altering drugs drugs without any treatment of his underlying medical problems.

AMC issued an appeal on Alex’s behalf to protect him from this fate. We did not, at any stage, advocate for his release from the Lutheran General Hospital.

The following day Dorothy informed us that the hospital could find nowhere that would take Alex and that his insurance carrier had refused to pay for any further inpatient care at the Lutheran General Hospital.

It appears that, as a consequence, he was discharged from that hospital despite his precarious position and that of his carers. It is our opinion that Alex’s tragic death reflects the abject failings of a medical system that has no effective answer to the autism crisis.


I should point out right now that I used to work part time as a trauma attending at Lutheran General Hospital from 1997 to 1999. It was a fine hospital then, and I have no reason to think that anything’s changed. Be that as it may, do I detect the stench of self-justification from Wakefield? He’s desperately trying to cover his posterior, but his fetid flatus of blame deflection leaks out anyway. It’s what he does. Wakefield’s fame mongering and conspiracy mongering aside, however, if what he says is true, it does point out another aspect of this tragedy, namely support for parents with children with special needs.

That being said, what’s also utterly despicable is the reaction of the denizens of AoA and other antivaccinationists to the news of the murder of Alex Spourdalakis. For instance, it is not infrequent to see antivaccinationists blame—of course!—vaccines for Alex’s death, the apparent underlying “logic” being that if he hadn’t become autistic because of vaccine injury then none of this would ever have happened. Such “logic” prevails in the comments of AoA posts about Alex’s death, such as this one and this one. For instance:

Though I can’t support the choice these two women made, it isn’t hard to imagine the desperation and hopelessness they were engulfed in. To watch your precious child suffer for so many years and then endure what this past spring brought for them. They fought and fought the beast head on and felt the hatred against them. It isn’t hard to imagine that they were exhausted. All of this happening in America no less.


No, these two women were, as far as I can tell, offered help but refused it because it was standard conventional therapy. From what I can tell from various blog and Internet articles, they appear to have subjected Alex to biomedical quackery and were unhappy that if Alex were transferred to a psychiatric hospital’s long-term care ward he would no longer be able to receive “autism biomed” treatments. Time and investigation by the authorities will tell if that was the case. Whether that is what happened or not, I nonetheless reject the “logic” of such antivaccinationists such as it is, that only makes sense only if you accept the pseudoscience claiming that vaccines cause autism. While one can sympathize with a parent facing the task of caring for a severely autistic child who is very large, very strong, and very difficult to control, as Jo Ashline says, autism is not an excuse to kill your child, ever. As one blogger put it:

So one of the reasons I’m really pissed off is because of the usual [eye rolling] “Oh, he’s in heaven now”. My favorite is the thing that one of the groups that was intended to work towards getting Alex out of the hospital was a letter to Alex in heaven suggesting that he thank his mother for stabbing him in the chest. [Sarcastic eye rolling] “Thank you so much for brutalizing me, it’s my favorite”. Because now, you see, he’s in heaven, which I don’t think exists. And he doesn’t have autism.


Harsh? Yes. But it rings true. The entire narrative of the autism biomed movement is that autism “stole” the parents’ “real child” away from them. Since the idea that vaccines cause autism is basically holy writ for the autism biomed movement, that means vaccines “stole” the real child away by making him autistic. Parents who try to “recover” that “real” child are thus viewed as heroic, rather than abusive, because they’re willing to do whatever it takes to defeat the scourge of autism (and vaccines) in order to rescue the “real” child within. One can’t help but wonder whether what was really happening was that DFCS was going to put Alex into a conventional long term care facility because his mother clearly couldn’t handle him anymore and was treating him with autism boomed. Unfortunately, it appears from what we know right now that Alex’s mother seems to have thought that he would be off dead than not being given access to what she viewed as “curative” treatments for autism. Events and evidence from the investigation and trial might prove that initial assessment incorrect, but for now it seems to fit with what we know. Was Alex collateral damage in this never-ending war by antivaccinationists against autism? Although what we know now suggests that this might be the case, we just don’t know yet. We’ll have to keep an eye on the results of the investigation into Alex’s murder to find out.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/ ... urdalakis/


I recommend Orac's blog, Respectful Insolence, as a data-base of abuses by the anti-vax ideologues.
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Re: Medication time.

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:11 pm

Plutonia » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:33 pm wrote:
Just to be clear, the situation, as I see it is that, there are the well-meaning parents who are concerned for their children's health; there is the corrupt pharmaceutical industry + government collusion; there are non-corrupt health practitioners and real alternative health practitioners; there are the historical anti-vax organizations; and then there is the C0$, working in the background, funding and directing an apparent grass-roots movement, playing all of them in order to further their ideology and influence. And that includes their well-meaning members, no doubt.


Yes, absolutely. Thanks very much for your post. I was feeling kind of hesitant about going there.

...

They all work in harness to a pretty considerable extent, so from a certain point of view I guess it's not a very essential distinction. But still. I think it might be a mistake to lose sight of the neo-Bircher/anti-Medicare component of the background funding/directing/astro-turfing. Because although they're much less dramatically vicious, they're much more insidious. They don't deal straight or honorably. And I kind of have a feeling they're on the ascendant a little bit at the moment, because:

The increasing emphasis on mandatory compliance/crowded vaccine schedule, both of which primarily vilify the government, suggests it. Has their earmarks, so to speak. And it's not a classically Co$ motif.

That's not to say that Co$ folded up its tents and left. Obviously. They never do that. They're in it to win it, by definition. But for...most of the last 15 or twenty years, maybe? I don't know exactly how long it was.

But for a very long time, the predominant theme was the highly Co$-compatible "mercury (or mercury-plus-virus) causes autism." And the goal was getting to the Autism Omnibus Proceedings and proving it, which was a very streamlined, coherent, consistent and successful approach until 2010 when all three test cases failed, end-of-story-arc.

It obviously hasn't vanished and gone away as an issue. But it looks to me like there've been more cooks in the kitchen since then than there were before, is all. Can't hurt to be on the look-out for them.
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Re: Medication time.

Postby Plutonia » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:39 pm

C2W said:
"It obviously hasn't vanished and gone away as an issue. But it looks to me like there've been more cooks in the kitchen since then than there were before, is all. Can't hurt to be on the look-out for them."

It's certainly true that the proselytizing of the C0$ anti-vax zealots has proven infectious- as they no doubt intended. And the C0$ has been known to make surprising alliances with other groups- as with fundamentalist religious organizations. So, now it's everywhere and the public discussion is full of crazy. It's like the Tea Party for children's health.
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Re: Medication time.

Postby Canadian_watcher » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:58 pm

compared2what? » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:35 pm wrote:
Canadian_watcher » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:10 pm wrote:gosh slim, I like you very much, but I hate it when people answer for other people. Still, it's enlightening to see where you're at on the C2W mindfuck spectrum.

I used to think the same thing.


Come on, man. Disagreement is one thing. Condemnation from on high for unspecified bad acts on personal grounds is another.

Show me what I do that's mindfuckery besides hold divergent beliefs from you on the basis of reasoning and evidence that anyone is free to judge or verify for themselves.

Or take it the fuck back.

________________


You're right. I was out of line there and it came off much worse than I'd intended it to which is not an excuse but I thought I'd say so so that you'll know.

I have got to not post in threads to which I have not been paying 100% attention unless the subject is a lot less involved than this one is.

I take it the fuck back. Completely. And I'm sorry.
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Re: Medication time.

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:05 pm

Plutonia » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:39 pm wrote:C2W said:
"It obviously hasn't vanished and gone away as an issue. But it looks to me like there've been more cooks in the kitchen since then than there were before, is all. Can't hurt to be on the look-out for them."

It's certainly true that the proselytizing of the C0$ anti-vax zealots has proven infectious- as they no doubt intended. And the C0$ has been known to make surprising alliances with other groups- as with fundamentalist religious organizations. So, now it's everywhere and the public discussion is full of crazy. It's like the Tea Party for children's health.


I think it's pretty much that same little nexus of Council for National Policy groups that they (Co$) tend to buddy up with on all the public, social-welfare-type initiatives they run under some acronym or another. (Which, as you so completely rock for pointing out, do all seem to lead to Purif these days, now that you mention it. Guess the Hubbard study and business tech wasn't delivering the literacy/profit benefits as advertised. Fancy that.)

There's not always a hard and fast distinction, though. As with Sharron Angle, for example. She's not just like the Tea Party. But Co$ is definitely in the picture. They still have to compete for turf sometimes, is I guess what I'm saying.

I'm sure you're completely, 100 percent right that they're the ones responsible for most of the autism-defining and autism-treatment-trendsetting side of things. But I'm a little less sure they're running the whole anti-vax show. Those AAPS guys use more or less the same rules and playbook, though. And it's a cooperative endeavor. So it's very difficult to say.

It just comes down to message-reading, basically. (IOW, my opinion, worth very little.) Thanks again for the astute Purif observation, though. I was living in the past. I had no idea.
___________

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Re: Medication time.

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:08 pm

Canadian_watcher » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:58 pm wrote:You're right. I was out of line there and it came off much worse than I'd intended it to which is not an excuse but I thought I'd say so so that you'll know.

I have got to not post in threads to which I have not been paying 100% attention unless the subject is a lot less involved than this one is.

I take it the fuck back. Completely. And I'm sorry.


Thanks. And no problem. I'm actually sorry I swore. I apologize. Peace.

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Re: Medication time.

Postby Plutonia » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:27 pm

compared2what? » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:05 pm wrote:
I think it's pretty much that same little nexus of Council for National Policy groups that they (Co$) tend to buddy up with on all the public, social-welfare-type initiatives they run under some acronym or another. (Which, as you so completely rock for pointing out, do all seem to lead to Purif these days, now that you mention it. Guess the Hubbard study and business tech wasn't delivering the literacy/profit benefits as advertised. Fancy that.)

There's not always a hard and fast distinction, though. As with Sharron Angle, for example. She's not just like the Tea Party. But Co$ is definitely in the picture. They still have to compete for turf sometimes, is I guess what I'm saying.

I'm sure you're completely, 100 percent right that they're the ones responsible for most of the autism-defining and autism-treatment-trendsetting side of things. But I'm a little less sure they're running the whole anti-vax show. Those AAPS guys use more or less the same rules and playbook, though. And it's a cooperative endeavor. So it's very difficult to say.

It just comes down to message-reading, basically. (IOW, my opinion, worth very little.) Thanks again for the astute Purif observation, though. I was living in the past. I had no idea.
___________

edited for format error.


I think they took at hit in their business tech outreach after the Anonymous War - there was maybe more transparency there pre 2008? But they've covered their tracks well with their health care incursions. The war on reality.

And you're welcome. It's not an easy thing to be the sole contrarian voice in a vaccine discussion these days. Thought I'd give you some back-up.
[the British] government always kept a kind of standing army of news writers who without any regard to truth, or to what should be like truth, invented & put into the papers whatever might serve the minister

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Re: Medication time.

Postby Canadian_watcher » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:31 pm

compared2what? » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:08 pm wrote:
Canadian_watcher » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:58 pm wrote:You're right. I was out of line there and it came off much worse than I'd intended it to which is not an excuse but I thought I'd say so so that you'll know.

I have got to not post in threads to which I have not been paying 100% attention unless the subject is a lot less involved than this one is.

I take it the fuck back. Completely. And I'm sorry.


Thanks. And no problem. I'm actually sorry I swore. I apologize. Peace.

:hug1:


don't be fucking sorry that you swore. !!
(what I mean is, I didn't say "I take it the fuck back" to be a bitch about it. I was hoping it would endear me to you and help you forgive me.) :heartflowers:
thanks for being cool about it.
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When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: Medication time.

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:44 pm

Sounder » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:05 am wrote: So if big pharma does such as the following, are vaccine proponents required to speak up on this issue to be credible proponents for vaccines? I would not think so, because I imagine that most vaccine advocates are not aware of these events. But the events are deserving of examination because children and their communities are harmed and ‘when people inflict pain and injury on children without remorse or apology and/or tolerate others who do so, addressing it is a first-order moral imperative and obligation’.

Five hundred children were locked into their school, threatened that if they did not agree to being force-vaccinated with a meningitis A vaccine, they would receive no further education. These children were vaccinated without their parents’ knowledge. This vaccine was an unlicensed product still going through the third phase of testing.

Within hours, one hundred six children began to suffer from headaches, vomiting, severe uncontrollable convulsions and paralysis. The children’s wait for a doctor began. They had to wait one full week for a doctor to arrive while the team of vaccinators just carried on vaccinating others from the village. More children became sick.

When the doctor finally came, he could do nothing for the children. The team of vaccinators, upon seeing what had happened, fled the village in fear.


You know. I think I'm really beginning to form some very unfavorable views of Christina England.

Turns out this has been a signature go-to story for her for quite a while. But that it happened in Chad and that there's a real tragedy there means nothing to her blindly vaccine-centric sensibilities. She's purely interested in using it as a platform for (what I believe to be AAPS-generated) political messaging/fear-mongering in connection with mandatory compliance.

I mean, look at that language in the lede: "threatened," "force-vaccinated," "without their parents' knowledge." That's aimed straight at the hearts of the white, $75,000-per-annum earning average vaccine-opposing parents who make up her readership. And its purpose is not to inform but to frighten them with the false specter she's conjuring up out of the real misfortunes and sorrows of others, which have multi-factorial causes that she doesn't give a fuck about.

Is It True that a Meningitis Vaccine Paralyzed Many Children in Chad?



    If you believe anything that Christina England writes, it is. (Protip: if you get a positive review from John Scudamore, you have evoked Skopie's Law, squared.) Otherwise, you are deeply sceptical.

    Some background:

    There is a relatively new meningitis vaccine, MenAfriVac®, that was developed specifically for use in Africa's meningitis belt. According to Vaccine News Daily in December, 2012, "The World Health Organization announced earlier this month that a resident of Africa’s meningitis belt would receive the 100 millionth MenAfriVac meningitis vaccine."

    The current situation in Chad is dire, as a March 2012 press release from Medicins Sans Frontiers reveals

    Chad Facing Malnutrition and Meningitis Emergencies

    NEW YORK/N’DJAMENA, MARCH 28, 2012—Severe acute malnutrition in parts of Chad has reached emergency levels, requiring immediate life-saving interventions, the international medical humanitarian organization Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) said today....

    Meanwhile, a meningococcal meningitis outbreak has struck the country....In response, MSF will launch, in collaboration with the Ministry of Health, mass meningitis vaccination campaigns...The campaign will utilize the new MenAfriVac vaccine, which confers longer immunity from meningitis for a wider section of a population than previous vaccines.

    A MSF blog post on a previous vaccination campaign in Chad writes:

    Meningitis is a serious bacterial infection that strikes during the dry season, when people’s nasal mucus becomes too dry to act as an effective barrier against bacteria. This natural protection does not usually return until the middle of May, or sometimes as late as June, with the arrival of the rainy season. If it goes untreated, the illness is fatal in 50 percent of cases, while 30 percent of survivors suffer serious neurological effects or are left without their hearing.

    (You might want to see this MSF photoessay on a rural meningitis vaccine campaign)

    On January 6 2012, the rarely-truthful anti-vaccine activist Christina England published a story at the blog VaxTruthFrankLies. The story goes that in the village of Gouro in the department of Borkou Ennedi Tibesti, a meningitis immunization clinic was held in December 2012 using the MenAfriVac. About 500 children were vaccinated. Later 40 or more fell ill with alarming symptoms highly unusual after vaccination.

    http://vactruth.com/2013/01/06/paralyze ... s-vaccine/

    At this blog, a person claiming to be a vaccine expert is telling a different story http://makaila.over-blog.com/article-le ... 98660.html (translation by Google with hand edits)

    Last week Chad sites relayed news of illnesses following a vaccination clinic in the area of Guoro (department of Borkou Ennedi Tibesti (BET). This prompted the Minister Ngaourang Nahor and his team to go to the site of the incident, through city of Faya. They are currently exploring this situation.

    Following the clinic, 30 children were evacuated to Faya for presenting with headache, insomnia, convulsions, hallucinations, fever, etc ... After administration of vaccine against meningitis A meningo due to Neisseria meningitidis serogroup A. [It was reported in La Voix that the vaccine used was MenAfriVac.]

    These symptoms are known in the medical literature, and are known to experienced vaccinators. For example, in a vaccination campaign against meningitis reported by the London newspaper the Observer in 2000, 13,600 cases of adverse reactions were observed in vaccinees. (eta: a factual discussion of the 2000 meningitis C vaccine scare can be found here. Another news story here. The adverse reactions were for the most part, quite mild) There were even cases of meningitis caused by these vaccines in subjects free of any contact with this disease. (eta: since the vaccine used in the UK in the 1999-2000 campaign was a conjugate vaccine, made by linking a tiny fragment from the bacteria's sugar coat to a protein, it is impossible to acquire the disease from a conjugate vaccine.)

    Moreover in Chad, vaccinators and supervisors ignore the stated precautions and administrative procedure for this particular vaccine. This vaccine cannot be mixed with other vaccines, either by combining two different vaccines in a same syringe or administering two two vaccines in a same site. (eta: While it is true that MenAfriVac should not be combined, the degree to which this precaution is violated in Chad is not known, nor is it clear that any administrative improprieties occued in Gouro.)

    The illnesses in Gouro (dept. BET) may be explained by breaking the cold chain for this vaccine. (eta: breaking the cold chain would render the vaccine ineffective and would be unlikely to cause illness). Indeed, many supervisors and vaccinators sent to BET do not care about the state of vaccines. They use the cold-chain thermoses and fridges for their own refreshments and set the vaccines at room tempertaure or worse. A supervisor from N'Djamena sent to a vaccination campaign in Fada dared to put his soft drinks in the thermos and put the vaccine in the trunk of the cab of the car where it is more than 110 degrees F when the vaccines should be between 40 to 47 degrees F ... Imagine the consequences of such stupidity on precious vaccines.

    Officials of the vaccination program in Chad are negligent or irresponsible toward all campaigns in remote areas such as Kanem, BET or eastern Chad. Either they do not reach their targets or they are neither the means nor the desire to go properly vaccinate these remote populations. These officials lack a professional conscience.

    In the Kanem region, many vaccinators are camping in the bush, where they and fill out their records at leisure, burying the vaccines and returning to the capital with 110% figures-- all invented, and without a single child being vaccinated.

    About vaccination in BET-- in general, in the scattered towns and villages, the rough roads, the very short time limits, supervisors and vaccinators pretend to be vaccinated and share diems and other emoluments relating to the campaign in which billions are invested each year.

    The Gouro incident should prompt our country's authorities to have the awareness and responsibility to sanitize the vile nest at the vaccination program, which is infested with swarming moths, cockroaches and vultures who get rich on the graves of our compatriots, decimated by infectious diseases that an immunization program carried out with contientous rigor would prevent.

    Dr. M.A.M
    Expert tropical diseases
    Researcher in mass vaccinology
    Chad, N'Djamena

    Original story (click to embiggen) Chad_vaccine_calamity
    Image

    Original of Dr. M.A.M's comments (at http://makaila.over-blog.com/article-le ... 98660.html

    image 1 -- click to embiggen
    Image

    image 2 -- click to embiggen

    Image

    A medical professional discussing the clippings above made the following observations:

    The key is "Selon les parents" (according to the parents) and there has been no genuine medical info forthcoming.

    The symptoms are more like those of some sort of poisoning than any meningitis I can think of. Organophosphate insecticide contamination of something the children (ages 7 through 18) ate on their trip to the clinic?

    "*many* of the children reacted within 24 hours of receiving the vaccine. He said that at first the children vomited and complained of headaches, before falling to the floor with uncontrollable convulsions while bent over with saliva coming from their mouths."

    For one, even if you get injected in the arm with a virulent meningitis bacteria ... it takes longer than 24 hours for you to incubate it and show symptoms. And headaches, vomiting and convulsing with excessive salivation aren't typical of meningitis.

    [Relative to Dr. M.A.M's speculations about the effect of breaking the cold chain] Breaking the cold chain ruins the vaccine and makes it ineffective because the organism dies, it doesn't become more virulent.

    At any rate, MenAfriVac can be held at temperatures of up to 40 C (104 d F) for up to 4 days without refrigeration. So what's the bottom line? MenAfriVac is saving thousands of lives; more that 100 million people have been vaccinated with it; and something possibly went awry in one Chadian vaccination drive. It's not even clear that the children were paralyzed or remained paralyzed. Validation from actual physicians required. I've contacted both PATH and Medicins Sans Frontieres for more details.


Here's the thing:

There are numerous confirmatory links in the original (as well as images that embiggen when you click them, sorry) here at I Speak of Dreams.

So please, please -- seriously, please! -- check it all out yourself.

But please note:

I don't actually completely trust every aspect of that account either. Because that blogger also has a bias. The gist of it appears to be pretty good, in this case. She gets major credit for grasping that it's a story about villagers in Chad and not a story about vaccines. And she also earns some general credit where due for the work she put into it as well as the thorough and transparent sourcing

So there are no detectible problems of a very major kind that I can see, in that particular post.

But her follow-up posts on the same story aren't nearly as credible. It looks to me like there was a politically motivated cover-up subsequent to the event, due to someone preferring not to take the fall for what I don't doubt is the god-awful and shoddy mess of unhygienic, slap-dash, graft-ridden vaccine program in Chad.

And she's way too quick to accept it at face value, imo. So caveat lector.

Now does Christina England have no standing to speak here? Is she disqualified because her own house is not in order? Does she even live in the house you say she lives in? I don’t know. Are the following folk guilty of the same infraction? Have they been vetted as to their position on bleach enemas?


She's not a trustworthy or reliable source. Too biased. (Show her a murder, she sees vaccine injury; autism -- vaccine injury; the entire range of political, economic, social and environmental realities with which people in Chad contend on a daily basis -- vaccine injury.)

It seems to me that the determined belief that vaccines produce far more good than harm encourages its proponents to not call out and protest when harms clearly do occur.


When they do, sure. But for single-source material, that's always an "if" not a "when" until it's checked, even without bias.

But that does not make these people,'bad people', it's simply a strategy, a common one, used by most folk on both sides of the debate it seems.


I don't actually think they're "bad people." I think they have demonstrably bad judgment and, in some cases, are doing bad things.

I'll do the Gardasil stuff later if you want me to. (Research required, I just need a clear stretch of time.) So let me know if you want me to.
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Re: Medication time.

Postby compared2what? » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:02 pm

slimmouse » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:24 pm wrote:There is of course a very natural cure whcih would prevent the vast majority of illnesses, namely to eat well.

Would that such were a given in todays age, despite the fact that it could and should be.


That eating well and getting exercise are as good for you as rumor has it that they are is a source of infinite annoyance to me. Junk-food has the allure of the luxuriously forbidden and exotic, as far as I'm concerned.

I've had some very bad (and even some brutal) experiences with allopathic/pharma-type medicine. Horrible people and bad treatments. But I've been to some good doctors, too. One in particular. And (I have to say) I've never had anything but pleasant ones with alt/complementary. None did much. But none promised much. So it was all good.

I think it always helps when people love what they do for itself. They're a lot less likely to do it badly than if they're thinking about you or themselves or some third thing. (Usually money or power in some form.) But some people are also just nuts in a way that looks exactly like they love what they do for itself. And I'm an easy mark for them. Because I'm not really temperamentally skeptical. I want to believe.

Human condition, probably.
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Re: Medication time.

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:09 am

Plutonia » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:33 pm wrote:
But the C0$'s bio-medical model leads to situations like this, where the carers of an autistic boy murdered him when he failed to respond to bio-medical treatments:

WARNING! THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE CONTAINS A DESCRIPTION OF THE BRUTAL MURDER OF AN AUTISTIC CHILD

“Autism biomed” and the murder of Alex Spourdalakis
Posted by Orac on June 14, 2013
(581)
More »

Sometimes, in the course of blogging, I come across a story that I don’t know what to make of. Sometimes, it’s a quack or a crank taking a seemingly science-based position. Sometimes it’s something out of the ordinary. Other times, it’s a story that’s just weird, such that I strongly suspect that something else is going on but can’t prove it. So it was a few months ago when I came across the story of Alex Spourdalakis, a 14-year-old autistic boy who became a cause célèbre of the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism.

I first noticed the story in early March when perusing AoA to see what the merry band of antivaccine propagandists was up to I came across a post by Lisa Goes entitled Day 19: Chicago Hospital Locks Down Autistic Patient. In the post was a shocking picture of a large 14-year-old boy in a a hospital bed in four point restraints. He was naked, except for a sheet covering his genitals. A huge gash was torn in the bedsheet, revealing the black vinyl of the hospital bed beneath. The boy’s name, we were informed, was Alex Spourdalakis. Further down in the post was another, equally shocking, picture of Alex that, according to Goes, showed severe dermatitis on Alex’s back due to the hospital sheets. The photos shocked me for two reasons. First, if the story was as advertised (something to be doubted always about anything posted to AoA), for once I thought that I might be agreeing with Goes and thinking that AoA was doing a good thing. Second, however, I was extremely disturbed by the publication of such revealing photos of the boy. Undoubtedly, Alex’s mother must have given permission. What kind of mother posts pictures like that of her son for all the world to see? Then there appeared a Facebook page, Help Support Alex Spourdalakis, which pled for readers to help the Spourdalakis family.

As I said, something didn’t seem right.

Now I know that something definitely wasn’t right, but I still can’t yet figure out what was wrong at that time three months ago. What is wrong now is that over the weekend Alex was murdered by his mother and caregiver, stabbed to death, in fact. The murder was carefully premeditated and truly gruesome:

Convinced that Alex Spourdalakis’ severe autism was growing worse, his mother and caregiver allegedly planned for at least a week to kill the River Grove teenager and themselves.


Wow. Just read this.

...

I also saw the original AofA coverage of his hospitalizations, just by random chance. I don't read stuff there very often. I just happened to be looking for something and came across it.

Those pictures were very disturbing. So was the stuff about the biomed expert's visit to the hospital and encounter with staff. Painful, even.

It would also explain why the hero of the autism biomed movement himself, the brave maverick doctor to rule all brave maverick doctors, Andrew Wakefield, visited Alex during Autism One and posted to YouTube on the Autism Media Channel a video making an appeal for Alex:


Him again. Amazing. Tragic.

Not the first time it's come to that, though.

San Diego mother pleads guilty in the drowning murder of her autistic son

Channel 10 news in San Diego reports Patricia Corby, woman accused in autistic son’s death, pleads guilty to murder charges, Corby faces sentence of 15 years to life.

The story begins

SAN DIEGO – A woman who drowned her 4-year-old autistic son in a bathtub, then drove his lifeless body to a police substation where she admitted the crime, pleaded guilty Thursday to second-degree murder.

Patricia Corby, 37, sobbed as she admitted killing her son, Daniel, last March 31.

The mother reportedly drowned her 4 year old son, attempted to drown herself and then drove to the police department to turn herself in.

As an aside: such events as these bother me a great deal. I have a great deal of difficulty discussing these stories and I resort to a rather clinical approach in my writing.

In a previous story it was reported that when she turned herself in:

…she told police that the boy was autistic and that she didn’t believe he would have a life or a future without her, so she decided to kill him, the prosecutor said.


(Emphasis mine; and LINK)

There are a few more like that. They're not anti-vaccine-movement linked. And I'm not saying they are.

But the constant, constant representation of having an autistic child as the worst possible fate that could befall anyone is really not helpful to the parents being subjected to it. Or the children, obviously.

Bad, sad news.
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Re: Medication time.

Postby Sounder » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:56 pm

http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/q ... -lawsuits/

July 7, 2013
Supreme Court rules Drug Companies exempt from Lawsuits
July 7, 2013. Washington. In case readers missed it with all the coverage of the Trayvon Martin murder trial and the Supreme Court’s rulings on gay marriage and the Voting Rights Act, the US Supreme Court also made a ruling on lawsuits against drug companies for fraud, mislabeling, side effects and accidental death. From now on, 80 percent of all drugs are exempt from legal liability……

Critics react
……Immediately upon the Supreme Court’s ruling, both drug manufacturers and Wall Street investors were celebrating. As one financial analyst pointed out, drug company profits should skyrocket going forward. Not only do the pharmaceutical companies no longer have to worry about safety or side effects, they are exempt from the multi-million dollar court-imposed settlements awarded to victims of their drugs.

One industry critic was quoted by Reuters after the verdict. "Today's court decision provides a disincentive for generic makers of drugs to monitor safety of their products and to make sure that they have a surveillance system in place to detect adverse events that pose a threat to patients," Michael Carome, director of Public Citizen's Health Research Group told the news outlet……



Go to the link for details.
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Re: Medication time.

Postby compared2what? » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:27 pm

Sounder » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:56 pm wrote:http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/q32013/supreme-court-rules-drug-companies-exempt-from-lawsuits/

July 7, 2013
Supreme Court rules Drug Companies exempt from Lawsuits
July 7, 2013. Washington. In case readers missed it with all the coverage of the Trayvon Martin murder trial and the Supreme Court’s rulings on gay marriage and the Voting Rights Act, the US Supreme Court also made a ruling on lawsuits against drug companies for fraud, mislabeling, side effects and accidental death. From now on, 80 percent of all drugs are exempt from legal liability……


That was a despicable decision. (Alito.) Good for corporations. And bad for consumers. But unless I'm really misunderstanding it, it didn't exempt eighty percent of all drugs from legal liability across the board. It exempted generic drug manufacturers from liability for design defect under state law if and when the design meets the federal specifications for the brand-name version of the drug.

So. By extension it basically exempts generic drug manufacturers from liability if they're in compliance with all the federal standards for the corresponding brand-name drugs they manufacture. The problem in the case that they were deciding was that the company that made the brand-name drug concealed information and -- of course -- the FDA didn't care or notice until the drug had been on the market long enough to inflict horrible damage on people, at which point they made listing that side effect one of the standards. Too late for the woman who was the plaintiff in this case, though. She took it before a generic version of it before that change was instituted.

Reprehensible. Criminal. Vile.

But still. More accurate to say "From now on, 80 percent of all drugs are exempt from a lot more legal liability than they should be, as usual." Because it's not total. It's just massively unjust and makes the odds of anyone recovering damages for damage done even slighter than they already were.
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