Medication time.

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Medication time.

Postby stickdog99 » Tue May 19, 2020 3:53 am

JackRiddler » 18 May 2020 21:31 wrote:.
On the merits, the Germans happen to be right about both.


He asserted as faithfully as a Nazi high priest of scientific sanctity. The fact that you cannot see any possible analogy between complete worldwide certitude about the benefits of every single vaccination and the complete certitude of dentists worldwide about mercury amalgams or the complete certitude of American medical and dental establishment to this day about the benefits of fluoridating US drinking water with toxic waste is telling.

Again, the analogy is apt in terms of how legitimate questions about vaccination are treated worldwide just as legitimate questions about fluoridation (as well as vaccination) are treated in the USA.

Pardon me if I don't agree that even German faith-based scientific consensus must be totally immune from groupthink. Where is your scientific evidence that every vaccine recommended by German authorities confers more overall benefit than harm? Could you share this evidence with us?

As usual, the paper above included the cost of exactly zero adverse vaccination events in its cost vs. QALY analysis. Interesting, isn't it, that even your precious German scientists simply assert that "the GAVCS evaluates the HPV vaccines as extremely safe" then proceed to completely ignore any and all costs associated with any potential adverse effects of vaccination in their cost vs. QALY analysis?
stickdog99
 
Posts: 3732
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby 0_0 » Tue May 19, 2020 8:04 am

Literally DrEvil's only schtick here this past decade:
Image
playmobil of the gods
0_0
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:13 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby norton ash » Tue May 19, 2020 2:05 pm

That's a cheap shot. I really value Dr. Evil's contributions.
Zen horse
User avatar
norton ash
 
Posts: 3941
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Canada
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby DrEvil » Tue May 19, 2020 2:13 pm

^^I'm pro-science and tend to push things too far in its favor, not because I think all science is good, but because I think the at times extremely anti-science and anti-reality narratives pushed by some need a counterpoint. Just because I'm usually rambling about the benefits doesn't mean I don't think there's downsides, I just don't spend much time talking about them.

Think of it as giving a book a five star review on Amazon to counter a review-bombing campaign, even if the book only rates three or four.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
User avatar
DrEvil
 
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:37 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby JackRiddler » Tue May 19, 2020 2:38 pm

stickdog99 » Tue May 19, 2020 2:53 am wrote:
JackRiddler » 18 May 2020 21:31 wrote:.
On the merits, the Germans happen to be right about both.


He asserted as faithfully as a Nazi high priest of scientific sanctity.


What the hell is wrong with you?
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15060
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby DrEvil » Tue May 19, 2020 2:46 pm

^^Nothing some heavy medication won't fix.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
User avatar
DrEvil
 
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:37 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby JackRiddler » Tue May 19, 2020 2:47 pm

DrEvil » Tue May 19, 2020 1:46 pm wrote:^^Nothing some heavy medication won't fix.


Don't. Okay? Don't.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15060
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby 0_0 » Tue May 19, 2020 3:14 pm

DrEvil » Tue May 19, 2020 2:13 pm wrote:^^I'm pro-science and tend to push things too far in its favor, not because I think all science is good, but because I think the at times extremely anti-science and anti-reality narratives pushed by some need a counterpoint. Just because I'm usually rambling about the benefits doesn't mean I don't think there's downsides, I just don't spend much time talking about them.

Think of it as giving a book a five star review on Amazon to counter a review-bombing campaign, even if the book only rates three or four.


Fair enough DrEvil and kudos for at least acknowledging that that is usually your role.
playmobil of the gods
0_0
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:13 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby dada » Tue May 19, 2020 3:55 pm

0_0 » Tue May 19, 2020 3:14 pm wrote:
Fair enough DrEvil and kudos for at least acknowledging that that is usually your role.


Considering your earlier post, I'm not sure that you're really in a position to be giving out kudos, or deciding what's fair enough.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
User avatar
dada
 
Posts: 1711
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:08 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby stickdog99 » Tue May 19, 2020 4:11 pm

DrEvil » 19 May 2020 18:13 wrote:^^I'm pro-science and tend to push things too far in its favor, not because I think all science is good, but because I think the at times extremely anti-science and anti-reality narratives pushed by some need a counterpoint. Just because I'm usually rambling about the benefits doesn't mean I don't think there's downsides, I just don't spend much time talking about them.

Think of it as giving a book a five star review on Amazon to counter a review-bombing campaign, even if the book only rates three or four.


I respect your opinions, and IMHO, you often perform a valuable service here in terms of restraining the Crisis Actors, No Planes versions of anti-vaccination propaganda. My biggest problem with your reasoned stances is that I fear any scientific consensus once it ascends to scientific heaven and becomes one of our indisputable scientific saviors.

Far too often in any discussion of any aspect of vaccination, any evidence whatsoever that threatens the confirmation bias of either side is reflexively dismissed and immediately punished as capital heresy. Given the current strength of the pro-vaccination scientific consensus worldwide and the fact that the effective parameters of the current debate are whether or not unvaccinated Untouchables should be effectively imprisoned, I personally don't think pro-vaccination forces really need any help.

Reflexive vilification of anyone who, like RFK, Jr., poses any legitimate question about any aspect of any vaccination's safety has become a mandatory "pro-science" merit badge among social commentators of every stripe. To my medical school students, my legitimate questions about the necessity of thimerosal in flu vaccinations, much less my well researched conclusion that the benefit vs, cost and risk profile of annual flu vaccination is debatable, put me somewhere beyond Alex Jones on the spectrum of "acceptable" discourse. At that point of overconfidence in a reigning scientific consensus, science is no longer science but only groupthink.
stickdog99
 
Posts: 3732
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby 0_0 » Tue May 19, 2020 4:25 pm

dada » Tue May 19, 2020 3:55 pm wrote:Considering your earlier post, I'm not sure that you're really in a position to be giving out kudos, or deciding what's fair enough.


Well dada, you can like it or not, but i definitely am in a position that i can decide what seems fair enough to me and i always will be. And also i can give out kudos anytime i want.
playmobil of the gods
0_0
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:13 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby stickdog99 » Tue May 19, 2020 4:27 pm

JackRiddler » 19 May 2020 18:38 wrote:
stickdog99 » Tue May 19, 2020 2:53 am wrote:
JackRiddler » 18 May 2020 21:31 wrote:.
On the merits, the Germans happen to be right about both.


He asserted as faithfully as a Nazi high priest of scientific sanctity.


What the hell is wrong with you?


What is wrong with me is that I don't think conclusions about the inherently complex and largely unmeasurable societal enforcement of a reigning scientific consensus should be categorized in terms of "right" or "wrong", and that our proclivity to think about scientific questions in these terms is inherently dangerous. You have made your inflexible, unassailable conclusion, and from this point forward, all future scientific evidence will be viewed from this lens of utter certitude.

But I know that you know that you are totally and unquestionably right, so therefore I must be the problem.

Of course, maybe you didn't actually mean exactly what you said?
stickdog99
 
Posts: 3732
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:42 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby 0_0 » Tue May 19, 2020 4:50 pm

To add to DrEVil's post and stickdog99's reply: i (sometimes) wish DrEvil was right and the world was a rational place where science ruled and offered solutions, if i can so summarize his position. My worldview is too shooketh for that though and so i'm a lost cause for trying to convince me of that. It would be nice though if all the crazy talk was just that. I can definitely see the appeal! Sadly though in reality "the" science we are asked to believe in is in a lot of cases no more than gross superstition on par with medieval witch-trials imo.

As an example: from one day to the next i was suddenly informed i was no longer allowed to go to work on march the 13th this year. It was sold as a way to "flatten the curve" a couple of weeks so as to not overwhelm the hospitals. They built a big emergency center next to the hospital here to prepare. Now we're two months further down the road and the emergency center is being dismantled unused (costs 4,5 million euros, a pittance in today's money i know). Meanwhile there is a huge backlog of cancer and heart and disease treatments and all other non-covid treatments. Anybody that does get into the hospital for care gets isolated with no or very restricted visitation rights from friends and family, covid-infected or not, which i suspect makes people think twice about going in, even in cases where they urgently need medical attention. And everyone seems to have forgotten "flatten the curve" cos now all the talk is about "the new normal".

Anyway, after badgering my manager for weeks to ask if i was allowed to go back to work, i finally was able to sign up for a trial whereby i could go back for a couple hours a week starting next week. Today i heard you have to get your temperature taken at the entrance by the security guards. If you have a raised temperature you're sent back home. This is being sold to us as careful science. But if you look up any research it will tell you that up to 80% of infected people are asymptomatic. And of the 20% with symptoms only a minority will have a raised temperature. So it really is just ridiculous theatre imo and i declined to go back under those conditions. Now i'm sure a lot of people would say hey what's your problem, just do it. But taking your temperature at the entrance sets a dangerous precedent, doesn't make sense from a medical pov, and is also may i add against labor law, privacy law and a host of other human rights, which my employer full well knows, but nevertheless they do it. Slightly off-topic maybe, but basically all threads are the same topic now anyway.
playmobil of the gods
0_0
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:13 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby DrEvil » Tue May 19, 2020 5:12 pm

stickdog99 » Tue May 19, 2020 10:11 pm wrote:
DrEvil » 19 May 2020 18:13 wrote:^^I'm pro-science and tend to push things too far in its favor, not because I think all science is good, but because I think the at times extremely anti-science and anti-reality narratives pushed by some need a counterpoint. Just because I'm usually rambling about the benefits doesn't mean I don't think there's downsides, I just don't spend much time talking about them.

Think of it as giving a book a five star review on Amazon to counter a review-bombing campaign, even if the book only rates three or four.


I respect your opinions, and IMHO, you often perform a valuable service here in terms of restraining the Crisis Actors, No Planes versions of anti-vaccination propaganda. My biggest problem with your reasoned stances is that I fear any scientific consensus once it ascends to scientific heaven and becomes one of our indisputable scientific saviors.

Far too often in any discussion of any aspect of vaccination, any evidence whatsoever that threatens the confirmation bias of either side is reflexively dismissed and immediately punished as capital heresy. Given the current strength of the pro-vaccination scientific consensus worldwide and the fact that the effective parameters of the current debate are whether or not unvaccinated Untouchables should be effectively imprisoned, I personally don't think pro-vaccination forces really need any help.

Reflexive vilification of anyone who, like RFK, Jr., poses any legitimate question about any aspect of any vaccination's safety has become a mandatory "pro-science" merit badge among social commentators of every stripe. To my medical school students, my legitimate questions about the necessity of thimerosal in flu vaccinations, much less my well researched conclusion that the benefit vs, cost and risk profile of annual flu vaccination is debatable, put me somewhere beyond Alex Jones on the spectrum of "acceptable" discourse. At that point of overconfidence in a reigning scientific consensus, science is no longer science but only groupthink.


Yeah, there is the danger of reasonable skepticism or criticism getting lumped in with the hardcore anti-vaxxers (thanks in part to the hardcore being so far gone that no rational person wants to be associated with them), and I share your dislike for big pharma.

I'm all in favor of draconian measures against any of them that are caught fudging the numbers or skimping on the safety testing. If they're going to distribute a drug to millions of people they should damn well make every possible effort to make sure they're safe. If they don't then fuck'em. Jail-time all around, seizing of all profits plus fines that make the shareholders run screaming, and seize their patents and make them public domain. Then repeat as necessary until they get the message.

Ideally there shouldn't be profits involved in the process at all, because that's almost always the reason things go pear-shaped.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
User avatar
DrEvil
 
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:37 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Medication time.

Postby JackRiddler » Tue May 19, 2020 5:13 pm

stickdog99 wrote:
JackRiddler » 19 May 2020 18:38 wrote:
stickdog99 » Tue May 19, 2020 2:53 am wrote:
JackRiddler » 18 May 2020 21:31 wrote:.
On the merits, the Germans happen to be right about both.


He asserted as faithfully as a Nazi high priest of scientific sanctity.


What the hell is wrong with you?


What is wrong with me is that I don't think conclusions about the inherently complex and largely unmeasurable societal enforcement of a reigning scientific consensus should be categorized in terms of "right" or "wrong", and that our proclivity to think about scientific questions in these terms is inherently dangerous. You have made your inflexible, unassailable conclusion, and from this point forward, all future scientific evidence will be viewed from this lens of utter certitude.

But I know that you know that you are totally and unquestionably right, so therefore I must be the problem.

Of course, maybe you didn't actually mean exactly what you said?


Yeah, yeah, very reasonable sounding reply.

In the course of this discussion, I expressed agreement with the German (and not just German, but majority global) public health views (as well as popular opinion) regarding two issues that they see as distinct, but that you have sought to conflate: fluoridation and vaccination. I noted that your conflation of these is a mirror image of the way these are also, falsely, conflated by the most authoritarian-minded persons speaking as scientific authorities in the United States. This is concerning to me, since these are two very distinct issues. And your answer was this:

He asserted as faithfully as a Nazi high priest of scientific sanctity.


So, indeed, what the hell is wrong with you?

There isn't going to be another answer to that. I'm not engaging with that. I thought and would like to think again that you are this reasonable thinker capable of nuance and receiving another opinion fairly, a researcher I can remember at least going back to your dossier on the chain of command response on Sept. 11, someone I've learned things from, with whom an interesting discussion can be had, etc.

So how do you say something so dumb and self-discrediting? Why would you say something that turns you into a self-parody? Are you feeling okay?

And you expect me to respond? Shall I apologize for your calling me a Nazi? Shall I call you a Nazi in all universes, and claim I won?

And then, apparently not as a joke, you reel off a lecture about what an open-minded and nuanced thinker you are? You say you don't think in simple terms of right and wrong! Just reasonable you, as opposed to the world of people who disagree with you, the Nazis. And you expect anyone to take this seriously?
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 15060
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 15 guests