Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby PufPuf93 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:16 am

liminalOyster » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:41 pm wrote:
PufPuf93 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:06 pm wrote:
The Donovan could just as well or even more likely be a CIA/FBI/any of a number of alphabet agencies or other parties as to be a Russian troll, a set up to be unmasked for a narrative.


This is the line of inquiry that seems to have gone unnervingly dead here and elsewhere over the past year, even if it should later turn out to be the wrong lead.


If Donovan is a strong example of a "Russian Internet Troll", Russian Internet Trolls are not a threat. If not told so, it would not occur to me to think of Donovan as a Russian Troll unless someone pointed Donovan out as such.

That said, I have little idea on where things are headed in big picture but I do not like what is evident.

There are multitudes of strong tides to generate chaos and divide people by world view and perceived interests.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby PufPuf93 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:45 am

Here is a post today from a well-known Democratic internet forum that favors Hillary Clinton, a veritable echo chamber.

Frankly this looks more like a possible Russian (or other) troll seeking to influence public perception than Alice Donovan.

-----------------------------------------------

Ticked Off My Aunt on Christmas

Let me introduce myself. Son of a union leader and lifelong democrat. Dad was really proud of xxxxxxxxxxxx and knowing some of the prominent people who post here. I think his name may have been "xxxxxxxxx"?

His sister was here for Christmas and she started saying that Obama and Hilary are going to go down.

I asked what for and let her go on for a moment about Benghazi and Iran deal/ Hezbollah drugs.

She said she gets her information from the Internet which led to Breitbart and Fox.

She said Trump is his own man and doesn't owe anybody anything.

My wife and I started coughing*putin*putin*.

Then I brought up money laundering but when I said that Trump is going down as the biggest fraud in history, that's when she got mad and immediately left.
Not the first time my family has fractured over politics. Ah well, the truth will come out soon enough.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby American Dream » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:33 am

Above and beyon the particulars of any one incident, the larger pattern continues to take shape. Kremlin-linked forces are engaged in information warfare, bankrolling reactionary/nationalist forces, assassination/organized crime and most importantly conspiracy circles. Whether this activity is more or less important than similar interventions from White House-linked forces depends in large part on one's biases, as by definition we are talking shadowy activity.

They are all bourgeois politicians, all serving Empire, so taking sides is besides the point. Most important to me is to not be inadvertently used to perpetuate more violence and oppression.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby Jerky » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:52 am

seemslikeadream » 26 Dec 2017 19:22 wrote:Putin, who greatly values his country’s Olympic program, weighed in on Rodchenkov’s fate during his annual end of the year press conference on Dec. 14. He suggested that the whistleblower was being drugged and manipulated by U.S. intelligence agencies.

Rodchenkov’s presence in the U.S. “is not a positive for us, it’s a negative,” Putin said. “It means he’s under the control of American special services. “What are they doing with him there?” Putin added. “Are they giving him some kind of substances so that he says what’s required?”


If that's Putin's default position on how such situations proceed, kind of makes you wonder how Snowden is enjoying his Russian holiday.

Of course, to paraphrase an old, politically incorrect axiom: "No need to mind-control the willing!"

Or does anybody here think Putin's take on the situation is essentially correct, and that bad old Uncle Sam, unable to dominate at the Olympics via sportsmanlike means, has resorted to cooking up a bogus doping scandal to eliminate their biggest competition?

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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:28 am

The Steele Dossier is an unverified piece of opposition research produced by the DNC and the Hillary Clinton campaign.


you should know that.....(by now) and since you do not I must conclude you do not know as much as you think

I find myself thinking I am reading a republican talking point trying to hide the fact that it was funded by a major Republican donor

see what I mean trump makes NO mention of The Free Beacon or Paul Singer EITHER

Image

Image


You do know that the Republican Party was also hacked?

Why do you think that information has not come out yet? BLACKMAIL


WASHINGTON — The Washington Free Beacon, a conservative website funded by a major Republican donor, first hired the research firm that months later produced for Democrats the salacious dossier describing ties between Donald J. Trump and the Russian government, the website said on Friday.

The Free Beacon, funded in large part by the New York hedge fund billionaire Paul Singer, hired the firm, Fusion GPS, in 2015 to unearth damaging information about several Republican presidential candidates, including Mr. Trump. But The Free Beacon told the firm to stop doing research on Mr. Trump in May 2016, as Mr. Trump was clinching the Republican nomination.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/27/us/politics/trump-dossier-paul-singer.html



and nothing in the dossier has been PROVEN wrong


Who says Trump is being blackmailed by Putin and the Russians? Steele Dossier? I don't believe Trump is being blackmailed.


No I say that because of EVERYTHING I have read NOT the dossier ...at least please read the Felix Sater thread

Everything you need to know about Felix Sater
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40670&p=642965&hilit=felix+sater#p642965


Russia Biggest Cybersecurity Firm Head Arrested For Treason
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40330


or the fact that he owes everything he has to Russian laundered money through Deutsche Bank...

which Mueller now has the records of ...and Cyprus also btw


GWB and Cheney were Establishment ...that's right very very establishment ....trump is not and will not be protected




PufPuf93 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:10 am wrote:
seemslikeadream » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:42 pm wrote:I don't blame Putin for trump ...I blame trump for Putin (talk) :P


why do you ignore all of trump's dealings with Russian Mafia?

how can you ignore Putin when trump is owned by the Russian Mafia

what do you think Flynn is telling Mueller?

what do you think Manafort is going to tell Mueller so to not live the rest of his life in jail?

what's going to happen when Kushner gets indicted?

why should trump be given a pass for being blackmailed by anyone?

trump is not george bush or dick cheney


I don't ignore Trump and his ties to Russian capital and likely mobsters.

Flynn, Manafort, and other confederates are low life opportunists that are being stung by their association with Trump. Let them rot in jail if it goes that far.

But Trump and these low life opportunists are not KGB. Trump is canny, much more canny than those that ride Trump's coattails.

Who says Trump is being blackmailed by Putin and the Russians? Steele Dossier? I don't believe Trump is being blackmailed.

But there is a full court press by the media, alphabet agencies, Democratic party leaders, and unnamed others to flood the public consciousness. This is good enough reason for me (and should be for you) to think the agenda is not so straight forward.

The Steele Dossier is an unverified piece of opposition research produced by the DNC and the Hillary Clinton campaign. Why trust these parties? I have never voted in 40 plus years of voting for anything other than a Democrat with two exceptions: John Anderson in the 1980 California GOP primary where I supported Jerry Brown and voted for Jimmy Carter; and Barney Sanders in the 2016 POTUS where I would have angrily voted HRC if California was at all in doubt. I could very well argue I have been a more consistent Democratic voter than any of the current Democratic party leadership; policy such as strongly anti-war, pro-environment, and an inclusive and egalitarian society. So the DNC proved just how incompetent they can be in tilting an election in their favor. HRC did a similar thing against Obama in 2008 and sabotaged her own efforts. HRC reminds me much of Richard Nixon. Be clear I would have voted HRC over Trump if there was any impact.

GWB and Cheney were Establishment, Trump is supposedly anti-Establishment and populist (to fools greed heads racists religiously insane) but in both instances GWB remained POTUS and Trump will remain POTUS until something other than Congress (or the People) determine it is time for them to exit).
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:11 am

The 13 publications that published Donovan’s emailed submissions were Counterpunch, Veterans Today, We Are Change, MintPressNews, Global Research, Global Politics, Ground Report, Op-Ed News, Restoring Liberty, Activist Post, The Duran, Popular Resistance, and foreign language outlets Reseau International and Naval Brasil.


Poor Jeffery had to be lumped in with all those guys


Donovan does not deserve the attention Jeffery HAD to give her ....such small potatoes in the world of what is really going on

poor Jeffery having to spend so much time and energy having to defend himself over and over excuse after excuse with that LONG article when he could have just repeated what We Are Change said .....but of course he had to protest way to much to save face

“Looks like we were totally played,” said Rudowski, who said that at one point his organization attempted to pay Donovan for a few of her pieces but she would always dodge the issue. What aspiring young journalist wouldn’t like to be paid, especially by a site that’s already publishing her work?

“We’ve scrubbed our pages of any signs of her,” added Rudowski. “The whole thing is totally embarrassing.”


anyone have the thought that Donovan was trying to ingratiate herself into the world of "CounterPunch" so to get the reputation she was looking for?

Donovan is a strong example
.....she is far from a strong example I'd say more like just a small fry in the big picture ..if she was more than that I would have started a whole thread about her :P

PufPuf93 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:16 am wrote:
liminalOyster » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:41 pm wrote:
PufPuf93 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:06 pm wrote:
The Donovan could just as well or even more likely be a CIA/FBI/any of a number of alphabet agencies or other parties as to be a Russian troll, a set up to be unmasked for a narrative.


This is the line of inquiry that seems to have gone unnervingly dead here and elsewhere over the past year, even if it should later turn out to be the wrong lead.


If Donovan is a strong example of a "Russian Internet Troll", Russian Internet Trolls are not a threat. If not told so, it would not occur to me to think of Donovan as a Russian Troll unless someone pointed Donovan out as such.

That said, I have little idea on where things are headed in big picture but I do not like what is evident.

There are multitudes of strong tides to generate chaos and divide people by world view and perceived interests.




Kremlin Troll ‘Alice Donovan’ Reportedly Writing News As Recently As October


Dmitry Lovetsky/AP
By SAM THIELMAN Published DECEMBER 26, 2017 4:58 PM
0Views
What did the Russian government-backed troll calling herself (or himself) Alice Donovan want?


That byline appears in at least 10 different news outlets beginning in 2016 and continuing through October of this year. The FBI believes “Alice Donovan” is the name of “a pseudonymous foot soldier in an army of Kremlin-led trolls,” according to the Washington Post. She was also actively criticizing not just the Hillary Clinton campaign but Trump-era foreign policy as recently as October.

“Donovan” appears to be the same person identified in one of Scott Shane’s New York Times stories about Russian interference on Facebook: An Alice Donovan outed by Facebook as a Russian intelligence sock puppet approvingly posted links to Kremlin cutout site DCLeaks, particularly its dump of documents related to George Soros’s Open Society Foundation.

The 13 publications that published Donovan’s emailed submissions were Counterpunch, Veterans Today, We Are Change, MintPressNews, Global Research, Global Politics, Ground Report, Op-Ed News, Restoring Liberty, Activist Post, The Duran, Popular Resistance, and foreign language outlets Reseau International and Naval Brasil. Most retread the news of the day with what appears to be very little oversight; Counterpunch is both the most traditional and the site with the clearest political perspective.

As a reporter, “Donovan” wrote blog posts that criticized Obama, Hillary Clinton, and allies including Colin Powell—similar to the themes of Russian-backed trolls masquerading as pro-Trump Americans on social media.

But a review of her articles—many of them plagiarized, according to one publication that ran them, the venerable left-wing blog Counterpunch—reveals a number of other areas of interest: Whereas Russian-controlled contributions to right-wing twitter feeds and Facebook pages stoked racism and railed against gun control, the ostensibly leftward prong of the massive Russian disinformation campaign focused on US activity in Syria, Venezuela and Turkey.

Perhaps predictably, some of the sites that published Donovan’s work have reacted largely with shrugs in much the same way that right-wing organizations felt too much was made of pro-cop memes, anti-Hillary jokes, and anti-immigrant sentiment. The origin of the articles was unimportant, suggested both Veterans Today editor Gordon Duff and Counterpunch editors Jeffrey St. Clair and Joshua Frank. “I don’t edit what people do. If it’s original, I’ll publish it,” Duff told the Post. “I don’t decide what’s real and not real.” Today Duff wrote his own conspiracy-filled piece about the Post story, primarily to criticize Counterpunch, at Veterans Today.

Counterpunch took a more philosophical tack: “So why did we run five pieces by Alice Donovan?” asked St. Clair and Frank. “First, because they were interesting and timely. The short pieces on Syria, in particular, came at a moment when Trump was engaged in his first big military action and we were eager, perhaps too eager, to publish as many different perspectives as possible on his new, more aggressive policy.”

Another site, We Are Change, didn’t respond to the accusations at all, though it did remove Donovan’s work from its public web presence.

Donovan’s articles on US military presence in the Middle East are unusual. In its mea-sorta-culpa, Counterpunch published a bibliography including as much of Donovan’s work as its writers could find, identifying one post lifted letter-for-letter from a pro-Russian, pro-Bashar al-Assad website called Inside Syria Media Center. Another—also cross-posted, this time with a shady news site called “Ground Report”—called the introduction of special forces troops into Mosul in November 2016 “a large-scale PR-campaign to support the candidate of the Democratic Party Hillary Clinton.”

Others are simply boilerplate anti-NATO, anti-Ukraine propaganda. Another Ground Report piece pushes for the cessation of sanctions over its invasion of Ukraine, something the Russian government has pursued by every possible avenue.

But the feature of the Donovan articles that has provoked far less discussion is that, for nearly a year after Trump’s election, they mercilessly criticized him, as well, accusing his administration of fomenting civil war in Venezuela, making note of operations that really did cause tremendous innocent bloodshed in Syria, and stealing quotes and paragraphs from progressive publications including The Guardian and The American Interest to do so.

In short, whoever handles the Donovan account seems to have kept his or her eye on the ball: The goals of the Russian interference and influence campaigns still appear to be a weakened NATO, a withdrawal of US forces from Syria that leaves Moscow-friendly Assad in charge, and the end of punitive sanctions for its invasion of Ukraine and the murder of Sergei Magnitsky.

It may not actually matter to Moscow, or to “Alice Donovan” who is in charge: There’s still Western power abroad, and whether because the Trump administration still houses many Obama-era holdovers, because he has little interest in changing the status quo, or because he genuinely wants to maintain foreign policy continuity with his hated predecessor, the Kremlin still hasn’t achieved its goals.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/ ... in-october



Russia approves of the GOP's efforts to undermine the Russia investigation.

Right now, "dossier" is the #1 trending topic among Russian-linked Twitter accounts, with a 2,014% increase in use over the past 48 hours, per @SecureDemocracy's Hamilton 68 dashboard.

Image


On the front page of Russian propaganda outlet RT right now: Trump's false claim that the dossier is "fake" and that the FBI used it as the basis for the Russia probe.

He's literally writing the propaganda for them.

Image
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby 82_28 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:46 am

Here is what is "going on":

We don't know. In fact, does anyone really?

We know we have a disgusting in every way human as the president of the USA. Physically, intellectually, spiritually repulsive, just on sight or first listen well before he was "president". Yes, if you spend a shit ton of time, as I have as well, considering this Russia stuff, you are left with but one conclusion:

The now suddenly hard scrabble, down on their luck, hapless American agencies are under attack. They have been foiled by this here Internet wild west freedom and now the Americans don't know what to believe! Let them simmer in their confusion.

We don't know shit and that is the point. Shit did not all of a sudden get out of hand other than the sensibilities of liberals. To get to "truth", the paths displayed ahead are all the false ones.

I could go on but fuck it. I have written it before, that this is all "important" when it seemed less "important", but its importance will in fact grow to the point that ever getting to the "truth" will actually be impossible. Fuck, we can't even prove to this day that 9/11 was an "inside job" and it was "obviously" controlled demolition.

Here is a somewhat "helpful" explainer that has "gotten me through" the days since 9/11:

Simulacra and Simulation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation

Search for it (while you can) and read it in full. There are no easy answers, because it is designed to never have an answer. Russiaishnessnessness will just grow until it simply becomes the defacto narrative of what was going on "back then". It has already infected my brain and I set out to not believe nada. Only consideration of "all sides". There are no sides other than a steamroller that is pegged on everyone and everything. As always.

I have found this phenomena to be far more interesting than the legal minutia of choosing sides of who to believe. I believe none. Stupidly, I trust all, who like me, do not know either.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:01 am

you know I will just delete and save for another day

but

WHY OH WHY CAN'T TRUMP QUIT THAT DOSSIER...WHY DOES HE CONTINUALLY BRING IT UP

why is he so worried about it?

Trump Dossier Analysis:

Corroborating Evidence in the Trump/Russia Dossier

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rbp ... Xs/preview


AND

The Dossier wasn’t the basis for the trump-Russia probes. Over 20 Trump team members had dozens of contacts with Russians linked to Putin before & after the election.

Anyone can clearly see there are facts in the Dossier. All players in it are real. All of the locations exist. trump’s connected to most of the Russians described in it. Nothing in it has been disproven—not one thing.

The Dossier says Russians paid for a trip for Gen. Yellowkerk Flynn. That is a fact.
It says former trump Adviser Carter Page was in Russia multiple times during & after the campaign. That is a fact. It says Page met with Russian oil company Rosneft. That is another fact.

February: US investigators corroborate some aspects of the dossier
imagine what FBI, CIA, etc have at this point? Almost a year later?


and

GOP Rep Ron DeSantis lied yesterday on FoxNews saying Clinton hired British spy Steele to trick the FBI into investigating Trump-Russia ties using the Dossier. Just so happens DeSantis got over $40,000 from Trump’s biggest donors in 2016. Coincidence? Nope. He was bought off.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby liminalOyster » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:21 pm

American Dream » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:33 am wrote:Above and beyon the particulars of any one incident, the larger pattern continues to take shape. Kremlin-linked forces are engaged in information warfare, bankrolling reactionary/nationalist forces, assassination/organized crime and most importantly conspiracy circles. Whether this activity is more or less important than similar interventions from White House-linked forces depends in large part on one's biases, as by definition we are talking shadowy activity.

They are all bourgeois politicians, all serving Empire, so taking sides is besides the point. Most important to me is to not be inadvertently used to perpetuate more violence and oppression.


There's also, though, a distinct emergent pattern of Left and some LIbertarian figures and institutions being discredited by various relationships to the big-Russia-theory: they're owned, they're agents, they've been used, etc. This is much more interesting to me as it seems much less discussed - how the popular zeal for Russiagate seems to affect the shape of our own domestic opposition.
"It's not rocket surgery." - Elvis
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby American Dream » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:28 pm

I prefer to speculate less about motivations and focus more on the facts on the ground, e.g. this particular left pundit denies that Assad is responsible for a civilian massacre, despite the evidence that this is so, and/or other things of this nature. It leaves open the possibility that they sincerely believe in tankie style "anti-Imperialism" but also that there may be a financial interest hidden in there somewhere, too. When we have more evidence, we'll have more evidence.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby liminalOyster » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:40 pm

I'm thinking of something much more base than lingering Leninist sympathies clouding one's judgment on Assad. More like the potential blanket condemnation of all those US pundits and intellectuals who chose to accept RT's offer of platform.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby American Dream » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:55 pm

That seems like a marginal position to me. There are a few theory dudes/pundits who really like to fight each other as much as anything- I would look amongst that group first to find any such characters.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby liminalOyster » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:09 pm

American Dream » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:55 pm wrote:That seems like a marginal position to me. There are a few theory dudes/pundits who really like to fight each other as much as anything- I would look amongst that group first to find any such characters.


Not sure who you mean. I've seen this logic applied to Jill Stein, Assange, and Thom Hartmann in center-left MSM rags.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby American Dream » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:15 pm

I would say that there is a small group of (white) men who spend inordinate anounts of time directing ad hominem attacks at each other, as they squabble over smaller and smaller points. As the battles rage, they tend to become less and less relevant to those without a horse in the race. These can include trotskyists, left communists and others who simply consider themselves experts, with the best smartest opinions in the known universe.
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Re: Why Do People Apologize For Russia?

Postby 0_0 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:22 pm

American Dream would not pass the Turing test for me, hope that's ok to say
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