BitCoin

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Re: BitCoin

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu May 20, 2021 10:20 am

.

It's not a market for the squeamish, nor for 'day traders'.

And Lo, a new day, and what do we see?

After Being Declared 'Dead' For the 414th Time, Crypto Markets Are Roaring Back

The FUD-full naysayers were quick to gloat about the death of bitcoin (for the 414th time),
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But, Bitcoin is now up over 40% from yesterday's spike lows, trading back above $42k this morning...
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Source:Bloomberg

Ethereum is up a stunning 55% from yesterday's lows, surging back up to $3,000...
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And altcoins are flying too, with Cardano (ADA) up over 70% and Dogecoin (DOGE) up 55%, helped by more malarkey from Musk...

Yesterday, Cointelegraph organized a live stream to analyze and understand the market’s situation with Charlie Burton and Michaël van de Poppe as guests. The question “Was today’s market movement the end of the bull cycle?” received a solid “no” from both guests.


https://www.zerohedge.com/crypto/after- ... aring-back

Despite the recent volatility, BTC remains markedly up over the past ~12 months:
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https://coinmarketcap.com/
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Re: BitCoin

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon May 24, 2021 4:38 pm

Belligerent Savant » Mon May 24, 2021 3:37 pm wrote:.

Seems there was an offlist chat with Musk to revise his position.

https://www.theblockcrypto.com/linked/1 ... ylor-tesla
Elon Musk said he's speaking with bitcoin miners about renewable energy

A tweet from Tesla CEO Elon Musk indicates he's taking steps to encourage renewable energy usage by bitcoin miners.

In a tweet today, Musk said he spoke with bitcoin miners based in North America. During the conversation, those miners committed to publishing a plan for renewable usage, as well as disclosing their current modes of obtaining renewable power. They also committed to calling globally on other miners to do the same, according to Musk.

"Potentially promising," his tweet concluded.

MicroStrategy CEO Michael Saylor said he convened the meeting. Saylor tweeted that the North American miners Musk spoke with have agreed to form the "Bitcoin Mining Council," which Saylor said would promote energy usage transparency to "accelerate sustainability initiatives worldwide."

Saylor said executives from Argo, Block Cap, Core Scientific, Galaxy Digital, Hive, Hut8, Marathon and Riot were in attendance. According to Saylor, they "decided to establish an organization to standardize energy reporting, pursue industry ESG goals, & educate+grow the marketplace."


https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin- ... -elon-musk
Bitcoin Mining Council emerges following meeting with Michael Saylor and Elon Musk

The CEO of MicroStrategy brokered a successful meeting between Elon Musk and North American Bitcoin miners.

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Cryptos Soar After Musk, Saylor Speak To Bitcoin Miners, Will Standardize Energy Reporting


...

Elon Musk.. realized, one week late, that by sending bitcoin plunging (perhaps to appease China, or some unknown ESG overlord) he also hammered TSLA stock not to mention his own net worth, and so moments before the close, the billionaire Tesla CEO - a little over a week after announcing he will no longer accept bitcoin because BTC miners use electricity - tweeted that he "spoke with North American Bitcoin miners. They committed to publish current & planned renewable usage & to ask miners WW to do so. Potentially promising."

...It wasn't immediately clear if any Chinese bitcoin miners are part of this organization - they should be, after all: the dirtiest bitcoin mining takes place in China's infamous Xinjiang region - but it's a start, and if indeed we are about to see mining standardization, one which pushes more output to the US and other "clean" regions, this could be just the catalyst that eliminates the biggest ESG complaint against cryptos.

The damage control tweets hit shortly after a $1 billion trade was observed via Tether, with some wondering if Musk may have been behind it as he sought to stabilize a furious selloff that would have dire consequences for Tesla's income statement and balance sheet.
...

In any case, the market which plunged in the past week after Elon triggered a selling avalanche which saw China pile on and lead to a 50% crash in bitcoin from its highs, was delighted by this development and sent bitcoin soaring almost $2K in minutes, surging just shy of $40,000 after hitting $30,000 a little over 24 hours ago.
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https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/crypt ... -reporting
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Re: BitCoin

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:15 pm

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/06/05/el- ... nder-.html

El Salvador looks to become the world’s first country to adopt bitcoin as legal tender

MIAMI -- El Salvador is looking to introduce legislation that will make it the world's first sovereign nation to adopt bitcoin as legal tender, alongside the U.S. dollar.

In a video broadcast to Bitcoin 2021, a multiday conference in Miami being billed as the biggest bitcoin event in history, President Nayib Bukele announced El Salvador's partnership with digital wallet company, Strike, to build the country's modern financial infrastructure using bitcoin technology.

"Next week I will send to congress a bill that will make bitcoin a legal tender," said Bukele.

Jack Mallers, founder of the Lightning Network payments platform Strike, said this will go down as the "shot heard 'round the world for bitcoin."

"What's transformative here is that bitcoin is both the greatest reserve asset ever created and a superior monetary network. Holding bitcoin provides a way to protect developing economies from potential shocks of fiat currency inflation," continued Mallers.

Speaking from the mainstage, Mallers said the move will help unleash the power and potential of bitcoin for everyday use cases on an open network that benefits individuals, businesses, and public sector services.

El Salvador is a largely cash economy, where roughly 70% of people do not have bank accounts or credit cards. Remittances, or the money sent home by migrants, account for more than 20% of El Salvador's gross domestic product. Incumbent services can charge 10% or more in fees for those international transfers, which can sometimes take days to arrive and that sometimes require a physical pick-up.
...
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Re: BitCoin

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:14 am

Cross-reference: Also ongoing discussion of BTC and El Salvador on the MMT thread, starting from this post by AOC through the next couple of pages so far...

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=41320&start=495#p695437
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Re: BitCoin

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:29 am

20000 people are listening to Pres. Bukele on Twitter Spaces right now discussing the bill live as it's being voted on (it passed - Bitcoin will be legal tender in El Salvador).

They are meeting with the IMF on Thursday, he said.
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Re: BitCoin

Postby DrEvil » Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:49 pm

A few things:

Internet coverage in El Salvador is around 50%.

Transaction times with Bitcoin is measured in minutes.

Transaction fees go up the faster you want your transaction confirmed.
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Re: BitCoin

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:19 pm

You have no idea what you're talking about, as usual. Research Lightning and the Strike payment app. Transactions are instant and virtually free.
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Re: BitCoin

Postby Karmamatterz » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:17 pm

Expect another revolution or some kind of action in El Salvador soon. Maybe they will bring out the goon death squads from the 80's again and shoot up some churches, nuns and bishops. Nothing like a little blood to scare the masses. The oligarchs will not tolerate these countries doing things like this. There is much theater right now with Bitcoins, just read and listen to the ransom "attack" against the Colonial pipeline. The anti-Bitcoin rhetoric is very loud right now.
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Re: BitCoin

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:44 pm

Karmamatterz » Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:17 pm wrote:Expect another revolution or some kind of action in El Salvador soon. Maybe they will bring out the goon death squads from the 80's again and shoot up some churches, nuns and bishops. Nothing like a little blood to scare the masses. The oligarchs will not tolerate these countries doing things like this. There is much theater right now with Bitcoins, just read and listen to the ransom "attack" against the Colonial pipeline. The anti-Bitcoin rhetoric is very loud right now.


Oligarchs are precisely the people who want countries to do stuff like this.
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Re: BitCoin

Postby Karmamatterz » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:47 pm

Okay, I'm being super short sighted then. I was thinking the olie's wanted their own e-currency and not Bitcoin. Help me with my muddled thinking here...
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Re: BitCoin

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:45 pm

Karmamatterz » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:47 pm wrote:Okay, I'm being super short sighted then. I was thinking the olie's wanted their own e-currency and not Bitcoin. Help me with my muddled thinking here...


You are correct. Oligarchs want to be able to control the money supply so they can continue to benefit from the Cantillon effect. Western governments are not kind to leaders promoting hard money (Gaddafi is one example). You can see all the anti-Bitcoin rhetoric in the US media today from oligarch-tool politicians like Liz Warren as evidence of this.

https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/the- ... all-street
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The Libertarian Dictionary Strikes Again

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:11 pm

.

Billionaires aren't oligarchs. Oh my, no no. Trump, Musk, Winkelvosses, those aren't oligarchs. Their money launderers aren't oligarchs. Owners and management of banks and megacorporations aren't oligarchs, especially not it they're involved in crypto. And if they are not oligarchs, then the senators these parties own directly aren't oligarchs either.

So what's an oligarch? A senator who might be one of the few they don't own (I'm saying only that she acts that way, not that she isn't likely a fraud), and who at least pretends to be seeking to regulate the oligarchy. That's an oligarch! Anyone who seeks to impede the unimpeded flow of big capital without any traceable accounting whatsoever, let alone regulation or taxation -- oligarch!

We should probably all put this in as a sig line:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."


(Were we to continue, perhaps we would discover, as is often the case with the libertarian and libertarian-adjacent ideologies, that rent isn't rent, debt and interest aren't rent long as these are between private parties by contract, no form of forced overhead is rent. Only the evil taxes are rent.)

.
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Re: BitCoin

Postby Karmamatterz » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:01 pm

Were we to continue, perhaps we would discover, as is often the case with the libertarian and libertarian-adjacent ideologies


Nice jab. At least it wasn't an experimental one.
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Re: BitCoin

Postby Elvis » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:30 pm

Gadaffi's crime was not hard money but a monetary union independent of Western hegomony, IMF etc. Also revitalized Arab League, big no-no.

The Cantillon Effect is an iffy proposition as an argument against fiat injections.

http://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogs ... ainst.html

Are Cantillon Effects an Argument Against Government Spending?

The answer is: not even close. You can frequently find Austrians or free market libertarians arguing against government intervention – particularly Keynesian policies – by appealing to “Cantillon effects.” The question is: do Cantillon effects provide a convincing, sufficient argument on their own against government intervention by spending programs that increase the quantity of money? Not on their own they don’t.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: BitCoin

Postby Elvis » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:04 pm

The money origin question crops up frequently in discussions on the merits of bitcoin. Ran across this, keep in mind it was written in 2013:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... the-future

Archive: https://archive.is/b7nHN#selection-3751.0-3771.132


Sorry, Libertarians, History Shows Bitcoin Isn't the Future

As we consider the digital-currency phenomenon that is Bitcoin, bear in mind that there are, broadly speaking, two accounts of the origin and history of money.

Matthew Zeitlin
April 4, 2013, 3:34 PM UTC

As we consider the digital-currency phenomenon that is Bitcoin, bear in mind that there are, broadly speaking, two accounts of the origin and history of money. One is elegant, intuitive and taught in many introductory economics textbooks. The other is true.

The financial economist Charles Goodhart, a former member of the Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee, laid out the two views in a 1998 paper, "The Two Concepts of Money: Implications for the Analysis of Optimal Currency Areas."

The first view, the "M View," is named after the Austrian 19th century economist and historian Karl Menger, whose 1882 essay "On the Origins of Money" is the canonical statement of an argument that goes back to Aristotle:

As subsistence farming gives way to more complex economies, individuals want to trade. Simple barter (eight bushels of wheat for one barrel of wine) quickly becomes inefficient, because a buyer's desires won't always match up with a seller's inventory. If a merchant comes through the village with wine and all a farmer has to offer is wheat, but the merchant wants nuts, there's no trade and both parties walk away unfulfilled. Or the farmer has to incur the costs of finding another merchant who will exchange wheat for nuts and then hope that the first merchant hasn't moved on to the next village.

But if the merchant and the farmer can exchange some other medium, then the trade can happen. This medium of exchange has to be what Menger calls "saleable," meaning that it's easily portable, doesn't spoil over time and can be divided. Denominated coins work, shells and beads also fit the bill. So do cigarettes in POW camps and jails and Tide laundry detergent for drug dealers. This process, Menger argues, happens without the intervention of the state: "Money has not been generated by law. In its origin it is a social, and not a state institution."

Goodhart points out, however, that Menger is just wrong about the actual history of physical money, especially metal coins. Goodhart writes that coins don't follow Menger's account at all. Normal people, after all, can't judge the quality of hunks of metal the same way they can count cigarettes or shells. They can, however, count coins. Coins need to be minted, and governments are the ideal body to do so. Precious metals that become coins are, well, precious, and stores of them need to be protected from theft. Also, a private mint will always have the incentive to say its coins contain more high-value stuff than they actually do. Governments can last a long time and make multi-generational commitments to their currencies that your local blacksmith can't.

But why oversee money creation in the first place? This brings us to the second theory of money, which Goodhart calls the "C View," standing for "cartalist" (chartalist is a more common spelling). To simplify radically, it starts with the idea that states minted money to pay soldiers, and then made that money the only acceptable currency for paying taxes. With a standard currency, tax assessment and collection became easier, and the state could make a small profit from seiginorage.

The state-coin connection has far more historical support than Menger's organic account. As Goodheart points out, strong, state-building rulers (Charlemagne, Edward I of England) tend to be currency innovators, and he could have easily added Franklin D. Roosevelt's taking the U.S. off the gold standard in 1933 or Abraham Lincoln financing the Civil War with newly issued greenbacks. The inverse is true too: When states collapse, they usually take their currencies with them. When Japan stopped minting coins in 958, the economy reverted to barter within 50 years. When the Roman Empire collapsed in Western Europe, money creation splintered along new political borders.

If money came about independent of states, as according to the M View, one would think it would outlast transient political structures. Historically, however, this tends not to be the case, a strong argument in favor of the C View.

How does this relate to Bitcoins? The electronic currency, introduced in early 2009 and popular with libertarian geeks, online gamblers and Internet-based drug dealers, is having its moment. Perhaps influenced by the banking crisis and deposit haircuts in Cyprus, Bitcoins have seen their value skyrocket in the past month, from around $33 a Bitcoin on March 3 to just over $140 today, and more than doubling in the past two weeks.

Although the creators and heavy users of Bitcoins tend to be skeptical of the security and value of state-issued fiat currency, the state-centered account for how money came about actually helps explain why Bitcoins have been fairly popular. Only with powerful computers and sophisticated digital cryptology can a private currency come close to working along side traditional monies.

If the requirement for money, whether it be metallic coins, paper backed by coins or paper backed by government promises, is that it has to be portable, durable and divisible, then Bitcoin fits the bill.

An open-source program run by computers all over the world creates Bitcoins at a predetermined rate. Each "network node" -- a group of networked computers -- solves a complicated math problem requiring a fairly large amount of computer power and is rewarded with 25 Bitcoins. The program is set up so that there will be 21 million mined Bitcoins by 2140, and then it stops (there are about 11 million Bitcoins in circulation today).

Each transaction has a unique digital signature so that everyone in the network can keep track of every Bitcoin and prevent counterfeiting or double-counting. Because the number of new Bitcoins is set to grow at predetermined rate, their value can't be diluted or inflated away, they are far more portable than normal currency for use in online transactions, and they can be denominated down to 0.00000001, a "Satoshi" (named after Bitcoin's pseudonymous creator, Satoshi Nakamoto). This has all the properties of a medieval mint -- security, limited supplies, and trustworthy denominations -- but is entirely decentralized.

It's a remarkable success, but it won't be the future of money. Even putting aside security problems -- not surprisingly, a digital currency is a favorite target of hackers -- there's the potential that Bitcoin will turn from a way of doing anonymous, simple digital transactions and into a speculative-asset investment item, especially if it continues to soar in price. That might promote hoarding of Bitcoins by early adopters and choke off the marketplace. [HODL!"] Although transactions haven't fallen off a cliff yet, a currency whose value is distinctly bubble-tastic is not something that even digital libertarians will readily spend.

Here's where a state could easily step in by just ... printing more money, so that economic activity is not choked off by scarcity or hoarding. This would be totally consistent with the C View, where money is created by states to facilitate economic activity. But since Bitcoins can only be produced at a predetermined rate, deflation is a constant possibility, or that Bitcoins turn more into a commodity people buy than a currency people use.

Even if Bitcoin remains a niche item for online libertarians, it is still a potent lesson in monetary economics. Call it the B View.

“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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