Can Plants Think?

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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:03 pm

Thanks for adding your expert insight, PufPuf. To me, it's as if the fungi are the forest's neural network, in complete symbiosis with trees and other contributory plant life, working together to discourage foreign intruders success, like non-native species. Can't say they think; more likely they react to chemical alterations occurring somewhere within their system, but they are somehow perceptive of strong human emotions. And music, too, good or awful.

I always told my vegan son that he'd feel allot different about eating plants, if he could hear their screams and be able to witness their fruitless struggle to escape certain death. Oh, they are trying to run away; you just can't see 'em doing it. Thank the plants both before and after eating them, for sharing their life-sustaining nutrients with you at the cost of their lives.
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby Harvey » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:53 pm

Cheers PufPuf. Just been readin through them, but frankly, I want more! :thumbsup
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby chump » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:27 pm

Hey, I also personally appreciated those PufPuf pieces you repeatedly posted.

Postulating plants, the Venus Flytrap almost seems like a decent example… maybe The Man Eating Plants of the Amazon, or 9 Carnivorous Plants to Stay Away From, or The Man-Eating Tree of Madagascar

Feed Me Seymour...
Last edited by chump on Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby DrEvil » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:56 pm

Iamwhomiam » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:03 pm wrote:Thanks for adding your expert insight, PufPuf. To me, it's as if the fungi are the forest's neural network, in complete symbiosis with trees and other contributory plant life, working together to discourage foreign intruders success, like non-native species. Can't say they think; more likely they react to chemical alterations occurring somewhere within their system, but they are somehow perceptive of strong human emotions. And music, too, good or awful.

I always told my vegan son that he'd feel allot different about eating plants, if he could hear their screams and be able to witness their fruitless struggle to escape certain death. Oh, they are trying to run away; you just can't see 'em doing it. Thank the plants both before and after eating them, for sharing their life-sustaining nutrients with you at the cost of their lives.


This is my go-to line when I want to rile up vegans too. They only eat things that can't fight back or run away. If they really cared they would go for a fully synthetic diet (probably not possible, but in principle at least). Life is life, and just because you can't hear them scream doesn't mean you're not killing and eating a living being.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby minime » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:08 pm

DrEvil » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:56 pm wrote:
Iamwhomiam » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:03 pm wrote:Thanks for adding your expert insight, PufPuf. To me, it's as if the fungi are the forest's neural network, in complete symbiosis with trees and other contributory plant life, working together to discourage foreign intruders success, like non-native species. Can't say they think; more likely they react to chemical alterations occurring somewhere within their system, but they are somehow perceptive of strong human emotions. And music, too, good or awful.

I always told my vegan son that he'd feel allot different about eating plants, if he could hear their screams and be able to witness their fruitless struggle to escape certain death. Oh, they are trying to run away; you just can't see 'em doing it. Thank the plants both before and after eating them, for sharing their life-sustaining nutrients with you at the cost of their lives.


This is my go-to line when I want to rile up vegans too. They only eat things that can't fight back or run away. If they really cared they would go for a fully synthetic diet (probably not possible, but in principle at least). Life is life, and just because you can't hear them scream doesn't mean you're not killing and eating a living being.


Ergo, the fruitarian diet.
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:17 pm

^^^ Sounds like a one-month diet. Don't think you could last much longer, but what a tasty way to go!

Soon after posting earlier I was going through unfamiliar music from my son's vast collection when I came across this tune. Somehow, in my twisted mind, thinking it fit the topic of late, I felt like sharing it here. I'll link to the one I first found searching for the demo copy, right below the demo. Though, as I copied it, it begins with the song, but includes an entire scene leading up to the song taken from the HBO show. I had heard of Tenacious D before, but I had never heard his/their music and previously knew nothing of the show. I had been under the impression Tenacious D was a Rap star!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O1i3rGyZ3s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VOtsSjPS3g&feature=youtu.be&t=428
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby minime » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:30 pm

Picked up a fruitarian hitchhiking once. Noticed immediately, before he told me, that he was one of the unhealthiest looking people I'd ever met.

Here's a nearly complete printout of my grocery list...

brown rice +
yogurt
dates
bananas
peanut butter
brazil nuts
maple syrup
beans
grains

milk, chocolate milk
oats
raisins
orange juice
grape juice
lemon juice
fruit: pineapple, apples
potatoes: white, yellow
carrots
brassicas: cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli
celery
onions, garlic
salad stuff
avocados
nuts
oil: coconut, olive
cheese: sliced, shredded, parmesan
tuna, salmon, chicken

eggs
butter
yeast
bread
honey
broth: chicken, beef, vegetable
tomato sauce, paste, diced
soy sauce, worcestershire sauce

sunflower seeds
pepitas
peanuts

...plus whatever's on sale and in season. Aside from tuna, salmon and chicken (and arguably the eggs)--and I offer no apologies--there doesn't seem to be any screaming involved. A quite healthful diet could be maintained simply by sharing the honey with the bees, maple syrup with the trees, milk, cheese and butter with the cow, and so on. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be.

Do plants think? I think not. JMO. But who's to say that their perceptions--for want of a better word--being more immediate, are better or as good as our own.
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:04 pm

Sounds great! No grapefruit seed extract? No sesame, no tahini?
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby minime » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:04 am

Iamwhomiam » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:04 pm wrote:Sounds great! No grapefruit seed extract? No sesame, no tahini?


As I said, nearly complete. I keep sesame seeds with my herbs. Tend to avoid extracts.

However I do perform ritual fletcherism on microgreens, minigreens and sprouts, while they're still capable only of whimpering.

A brazil nut (for the selenium--heart disease runs in the family) and mission fig or medjool date with my coffee in the morning.

Probably been said: The question is, more pertinently: Can people think?

And if so, why would they?
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby Pele'sDaughter » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:29 am

Probably been said: The question is, more pertinently: Can people think?

And if so, why would they?


It occurred to me this morning when I saw the topic title that perhaps plants have evolved past the need for "thought". They're certainly more successful than we are in non-technological areas of existence.
Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
---Immanuel Kant
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby PufPuf93 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:45 am

Pele'sDaughter » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:29 am wrote:
Probably been said: The question is, more pertinently: Can people think?

And if so, why would they?


It occurred to me this morning when I saw the topic title that perhaps plants have evolved past the need for "thought". They're certainly more successful than we are in non-technological areas of existence.


I tend to view ecosystems at whatever level (Planet Earth to surface of soil particle) as organisms in of themselves composed of a variety of other organisms that communicate and express conditions of the environment over various time scales. Consciousness implies self-awareness but not necessarily how we conceive of awareness in a human sense. Disturbance by humans (or acts of nature) simplify plant communities in the gross and unseen levels and time is required to return to the prior level of complexity.
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby Cordelia » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:57 am

The Venus Flytrap video Chump posted up-thread is intriguing; the plant seems 'mindful' of its entrapment timing (What happens to the carcasses?) Warning: for yellow jacket lovers, graphic footage of their fate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhP7iQ79vS4

May be of interest to plant lovers in and around NYC:

Sonic Succulents: Plant Sounds and Vibrations at Brooklyn Botanic Garden by Adrienne Adar


May 21 to October 27, 2019
Visitor Center & Gardenwide


Sonic Succulents: Plant Sounds and Vibrations at Brooklyn Botanic Garden by Los Angeles–based Adrienne Adar is an exciting installation of living interactive sound artworks. Adar amplifies familiar plants with handmade sensors so that visitors can interact with plant life through gentle touch and sound. This playful and surprising exhibition explores concepts around plant growth, communication, ecology, and sustainability. Installations around the Garden will deepen visitors’ understanding of and connection to the natural world.

https://www.bbg.org/visit/event/sonic_s ... ienne_adar



Image
Beautiful drawing from Brian Zeigler's exhibit at BBG https://www.bbg.org/visit/event/exhibit ... an_zeigler
The greatest sin is to be unconscious. ~ Carl Jung

We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content. ~ Dag Hammarskjold 'Waymarks'
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby minime » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:09 am

Iamwhomiam » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:17 pm wrote:Soon after posting earlier I was going through unfamiliar music from my son's vast collection when I came across this tune. Somehow, in my twisted mind, thinking it fit the topic of late, I felt like sharing it here. I'll link to the one I first found searching for the demo copy, right below the demo. Though, as I copied it, it begins with the song, but includes an entire scene leading up to the song taken from the HBO show. I had heard of Tenacious D before, but I had never heard his/their music and previously knew nothing of the show. I had been under the impression Tenacious D was a Rap star!


The arguably multi-talented Jack Black and Kyle Gass
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:38 pm

^^^ I was surprised learning who Tenacious D was, but agree he's arguably multi-talented. Certainly in marketing a few.

Btw, you've got what seems an excellent diet, imho. Off to the Farmers Market tomorrow for greens and whatever berries strikes my fancy at that moment, but no medjools there; there is a place though, a place where I will buy fresh figs, whatever kind they have, and some monukka raisins. Out behind my house/shack few years ago, playing earth mover man on his tractor, my LL wiped out a vast area where for more than two and a half decades each June thru July, I gleaned daily my morning meal of wild strawberries. I tried to transplant only two rooted sb runners and within an hour Mrs. LL had yanked them out. Eventually, she planted crown vetch. I hate crown vetch! (Trump voter) Why not a nice ground-hugging and also flowering portulacas, it's maintenance-free and thrives in full sun? (Long ago I should never have mentioned to her how very much I detest that wretched plant!) The question asked below stands:
~~~~~~~~~~~
PufPuf93 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:45 am wrote:
Pele'sDaughter » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:29 am wrote:
Probably been said: The question is, more pertinently: Can people think?

And if so, why would they?


It occurred to me this morning when I saw the topic title that perhaps plants have evolved past the need for "thought". They're certainly more successful than we are in non-technological areas of existence.


I tend to view ecosystems at whatever level (Planet Earth to surface of soil particle) as organisms in of themselves composed of a variety of other organisms that communicate and express conditions of the environment over various time scales. Consciousness implies self-awareness but not necessarily how we conceive of awareness in a human sense. Disturbance by humans (or acts of nature) simplify plant communities in the gross and unseen levels and time is required to return to the prior level of complexity.


Can people think and why would they? Yes, people can think. But that's when their confusion begins, once they begin thinking, forever thereafter prompting an all but unending stream of confused questions. It really gets good though, when one really quiets their thoughts and cease their questioning, and that's when answers begin to be known.

PufPuf, I agree with your perspective on this: "...organisms in of themselves composed of a variety of other organisms that communicate..." and realize especially ours is a shared ecosystem dependent upon the health of the varieties of life sharing our individual body, and the minerals of the Earth, too, we all find essential to sustain life healthily. The Butterfly Effect.
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Re: Can Plants Think?

Postby PufPuf93 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:06 pm

Cordelia » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:57 am wrote:The Venus Flytrap video Chump posted up-thread is intriguing; the plant seems 'mindful' of its entrapment timing (What happens to the carcasses?) Warning: for yellow jacket lovers, graphic footage of their fate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhP7iQ79vS4

May be of interest to plant lovers in and around NYC:

Sonic Succulents: Plant Sounds and Vibrations at Brooklyn Botanic Garden by Adrienne Adar


May 21 to October 27, 2019
Visitor Center & Gardenwide


Sonic Succulents: Plant Sounds and Vibrations at Brooklyn Botanic Garden by Los Angeles–based Adrienne Adar is an exciting installation of living interactive sound artworks. Adar amplifies familiar plants with handmade sensors so that visitors can interact with plant life through gentle touch and sound. This playful and surprising exhibition explores concepts around plant growth, communication, ecology, and sustainability. Installations around the Garden will deepen visitors’ understanding of and connection to the natural world.

https://www.bbg.org/visit/event/sonic_s ... ienne_adar



Image
Beautiful drawing from Brian Zeigler's exhibit at BBG https://www.bbg.org/visit/event/exhibit ... an_zeigler


Carnivorous plants usually live in boggy soils that are nitrogen deficient and the carnivorous plants have evolved to the site as a strategy to get nitrogen and other nutrients. The insects are attracted as to flowers but find themselves entrapped and dissolved.

There are Darlingtonia / Cobra lilies / pitcher plants in the forests where I live that are awesome. They grow in boggy areas in the low nutrient / high heavy metal / high calcium magnesium ratio soils that form on ultramafic parent material bedrock geology (serpentine and peridotite).

The plant capture mechanism is a modified leaf and the flowers are separate (as seen in the second image).

Image

Image

Darlingtonia californica
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlingtonia_californica

Chrysamphora californica
(Torr.) Greene (1891)

Darlingtonia californica /dɑːrlɪŋˈtoʊniə kælɪˈfɔːrnɪkə/, also called the California pitcher plant, cobra lily, or cobra plant, is a species of carnivorous plant. As a pitcher plant it is the sole member of the genus Darlingtonia in the family Sarraceniaceae. It is native to Northern California and Oregon growing in bogs and seeps with cold running water. This plant is designated as uncommon due to its rarity in the field.[1]

The name "cobra lily" stems from the resemblance of its tubular leaves to a rearing cobra, complete with a forked leaf – ranging from yellow to purplish-green – that resemble fangs or a serpent's tongue.
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