2014 Malaysian Planes Lost: Pacific and Ukraine

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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:42 pm

Kiev has full control of the airspace and the militias are the ones trying to shoot down Kiev planes, so while allowing for what appears to be an overwhelming likelihood of mistaken targeting by the Donetsk militias without further back-story, here's some speculation:

After the military plane shootdowns of July 14 and 16, the easiest way to engineer this incident on behalf of a pro-Kiev war party, while leaving minimal fingerprints and having the Donetsk militia actually pulling the trigger, would have been to get ATC to route passenger flights right through the airspace in which the militias were already shooting down military flights, and wait for something predictable to happen. (In addition, purely speculative: Is it possible to fake some electronic signature for a plane to make it look like a military flight, or to remotely take over the guidance system of a BuK missile?)

Remember this incredible graphic: MH17 went right through the gap between the two shootdowns in the three days before, diverting (according to the flight route database provided by Zero Hedge via Morty) away from the much safer route it had been following.

Image
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:51 pm

Su-25: Wingspan 47', Length 51'
Image

An-26: W 96', L 78'
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Boeing 777: W 199', L 242', Tail Height 60', Diameter 20'
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:02 pm

MH17: rebels block access to part of site of crash as evidence against them grows

First OSCE investigators to the scene retreat after hour-long standoff with armed separatists who fired warning shots

Shaun Walker in Kiev, Harriet Salem in Grabovo, Dan Roberts in Washington and Philip Oltermann in Amsterdam
The Guardian, Friday 18 July 2014 13.26 EDT

Image
A pro-Russia fighter holds up a toy found among the debris at the crash site of the Malaysia Airlines jet, where OSCE investigators were denied access. Photograph: Dmitry Lovetsky/AP


President Barack Obama threatened to "increase the costs" on Russia if Moscow fails to deescalate the situation in Ukraine, as US and other western officials said there was mounting evidence that a missile fired by Russia-backed separatists downed the Malaysian Airlines jet which crashed in eastern Ukraine on Thursday.

All sides have called for a thorough and impartial investigation into what caused the crash, which killed all 283 passengers and 15 crew on board MH17, en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. However, the first group of international investigators on the scene were involved in a tense standoff with the armed separatists who control the crash site at Grabovo.

A unit of heavily armed rebels blocked the 30-strong team from the OSCE, cordoning off a large part of the crash site. The inspectors retreated after an hour-long standoff, having been unable to gain access. They were sent on their way by warning shots fired by the rebel unit commander.

"We will keep coming back tomorrow and the next day and the next day," said spokesman Michael Bociurkiw. "Tomorrow will be a crunch day. There are a lot of experts from the Netherlands and Malaysia gathering in Kiev as well as relatives. The bodies are starting to bloat and decay. An expert team is clearly needed. There is a lot to be done in a short amount of time."


In Washington, Obama called for a full, impartial investigation and said the tragedy should cause people to "snap their heads together" and stop playing games in Ukraine. In veiled criticism of the lack of European support for US-led economic sanctions against Russia, Obama said the loss of so many European lives should serve as a "wake-up call" for Europe.

Obama said while it was too early to be completely sure who was responsible and what their motives were, the US was sure that a missile fired from within territory controlled by Russian separatists brought down the jet.

He stopped short of directly blaming Moscow for the tragedy, but said it was down to Russian president Vladimir Putin to end the violence that has plagued Ukraine for months.

"It is not possible for the separatists to function the way they're functioning, to have the equipment they have … without sophisticated equipment and training, and that is coming from Russia," said Obama. "If Mr Putin makes a decision that we are not going to allow heavy armaments and the flow of fighters into Ukraine … then it will stop."

Russia, however, did not appear eager to disown the rebel movement to which it has been publicly sympathetic and privately supplied logistical and military backing, or at least turned a blind eye to its provision across the Russia-Ukraine border.

Russia's ambassador to the UN, while not addressing the specific claim of how MH17 was shot down, said that Russia "fully blames Kiev" for all violence in the region. In Moscow, foreign minister Sergei Lavrov dismissed claims from Kiev that Russia was behind the attack, saying that he had "hardly heard a single true statement come from Kiev in the past few months".

Lavrov's deputy, Sergei Ryabkov accused the Americans of having made their minds up without studying the facts, and insisted that it was in fact the US who was to blame. Washington, said Ryabkov, was responsible for "stirring up political instability, provoking an anti-constitutional seizure of power and supporting anti-Russian politicians … The US should think about the consequences of its actions".

Russia's state-controlled media suggested that a Ukrainian jet or missile system had shot down the plane, with a source in Russia's defence ministry claiming that Moscow had picked up missile radar activity on Thursday coming from Ukrainian bases. Other more fanciful conspiracy theories were floated, including the idea that the attack was carried out by the Ukrainian army in error, thinking it was Putin's plane. Rebel websites suggested that the bodies discovered at the crash site were "long dead" and speculated the plane could have been MH370, which went missing earlier this year, hidden and then re-used to stage a "provocation".

While even Obama admitted that the US does not know exactly what happened, amid the ludicrous theories the circumstantial evidence did appear to point more and more to an accidental attack by separatists, who thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian military jet.

If the missile was fired by rebels, it is unclear if they obtained the launch system from Russia, or if it was seized from a Ukrainian army base. Video posted on YouTube claiming to show part of a Buk system being on the move towards the Russian border on Friday could not be verified. Ukraine's foreign minister, Pavlo Klimkin, however, insisted that recordings released by Ukraine's SBU security services on Thursday of separatist fighters admitting they had downed a passenger liner were "absolutely genuine".

Elsewhere in the east, the fighting between Kiev forces and separatists continued. There were reports that at least 20 civilians had been killed by shelling in the city of Luhansk.

The 298 people aboard MH17 came from nearly a dozen nations, with at least 189 of the dead Dutch citizens. A large number were heading to a conference on HIV/AIDS.

"Truly beautiful, inspiring, committed, smart and compassionate people have been brutally taken away from us," said Murdo Bijl, a Dutch AIDS advocate who knew many of those on board MH17. "The world and the AIDS field will miss these brilliant doctors, advocates, researchers and friends."

Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte, who on Thursday night had sounded caution about jumping to conclusions, by Friday afternoon too was calling for consequences: "Let us be clear: if it becomes clear that it was an attack, the perpetrators must be found and punished", the Dutch PM said at a press conference at the ministry of security and justice. "That is something the victims and those they leave behind are entitled to."

Yet overall the reaction to the tragedy in the Netherlands has been remarkable restrained. On Friday morning at 8am, passengers were queuing up to check into another Malaysian Airways flight bound for Kuala Lumpur. One couple in their 20s, who didn't want to give their names, said they felt "sad" about what had happened, and admitted they were a little bit scared about boarding their flight. But they were determined not to give up on their holiday, a trip around Indonesia and Sumatra.

Erik Elsenaar, an IT consultant waiting at Schiphol for his midday flight to Kuala Lumpur, told the Guardian he was feeling very calm: "This is something that never, never happens, and it's unlikely to happen again. It is a tragedy, but it doesn't look like the attack was either directed at Holland or Malaysia Airlines. You can see here that they've already doubled the security at check-in. They will probably triple the checks for bombs. It's definitely safer to travel now than it was to travel the day before yesterday."

There were also nine UK citizens among the dead. A British diplomat in Kiev said if any of the relatives of the nine UK citizens killed in the crash came to Ukraine, they would be given all assistance required, even as far as attempts to journey to the crash site, "within the limits of what is safe, possible and accessible".

A video-conference took place on Thursday evening between the separatists and the Ukrainian president's representative, former president Leonid Kuchma, which included mediation from the OSCE and the Russian ambassador to Ukraine, agreed that the separatists would grant access to the crash site for international investigators. However, Friday's stand-off with the OSCE shows that unfettered access could be tricky to achieve, and the logistics of issues such as retrieving and properly storing bodies, as well as sifting through the evidence, remain unclear.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby 8bitagent » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:03 pm

Makes sense Russian forces themselves wouldn't be involved, despite the pro Russian rebels saying that they the rebels do not have the weaponry. Interesting take on it being a cock-up but possibly allowed to happen.
I could see Ukraine wanting that.

Flight 17 blown up on July 17th....(18 year annv of TWA 800)


Is there a history of issues with Malaysia 777 planes before this year?
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:15 pm

8bitagent » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:03 pm wrote:
Is there a history of issues with Malaysia 777 planes before this year?


Sir: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777 ... _accidents
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby zangtang » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:38 pm

FWIW - ITV2 just pulled the bond film 'Goldeneye' and replaced with rom-com pap 'couples retreat'......intuition tells me because of the Ukraine 777......cant remember specific plot points other than super-duper helicopter gets stolen by eastern/fall of ussr arms dealer.....cant recall false flag/ aircraft shootdown / financial meltdown in the flick.... - this from wikipedia :

GoldenEye (1995) is the seventeenth spy film in the James Bond series, and the first to star Pierce Brosnan as the fictional MI6 officer James Bond. The film was directed by Martin Campbell and is the first film in the series not to take story elements from the works of novelist Ian Fleming.[1] The story was conceived and written by Michael France, with later collaboration by other writers. In the film, Bond fights to prevent an arms syndicate from using the GoldenEye satellite weapon against London in order to cause a global financial meltdown.

GoldenEye was released in 1995 after a six-year hiatus in the series caused by legal disputes, during which Timothy Dalton resigned from the role of James Bond and was replaced by Pierce Brosnan. M was also recast, with actress Judi Dench becoming the first woman to portray the character, replacing Robert Brown. GoldenEye was the first Bond film made after the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War, which provided a background for the plot.

The film accumulated a worldwide gross of US$350.7 million, considerably better than Dalton's films, without taking inflation into account.[2] Some critics viewed the film as a modernisation of the series, and felt Brosnan was a definite improvement over his predecessor.[3][4][5] The film also received award nominations for "Best Achievement in Special Effects" and "Best Sound" from the British Academy of Film and Television Arts.[6]

The name "GoldenEye" pays homage to James Bond's creator, Ian Fleming. While working for British Naval Intelligence as a lieutenant commander, Ian Fleming liaised with the American OSS to monitor developments in Spain after the Spanish Civil War in an operation codenamed Operation Goldeneye. Fleming used the name of his operation for his estate in Oracabessa, Jamaica.

what in the film mirrors, or could be seen to mirror...what is happening, or is speculated to be happening right now ?

got a feeling those new 'swingeing' sanctions just yesterday are not irrelevant......
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby ShinShinKid » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:34 pm

Denis Pushilin, one of the more visible figures in the pro-Russian separatist movement in eastern Ukraine, has resigned, reports say.

Pushilin was the self-styled Chairman of the Supreme Council of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic.

Pushilin's deputy, Vladimir Makovich, said on July 18 that Pushilin had sent a letter addressed to him in which he announced he was stepping down from his post.

"Denis is now in Moscow," Makovich said.

The reasons for Pushilin's resignation were not clear.

It came just after he was quoted as saying that his group is willing grant the international community access to the wreckage of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, which crashed in the area on July 17.

Earlier in July, Pushilin had criticized Russia for not coming to the separatists' aid when Kyiv stepped up its military operation against the separatists.

(Interfax, ITAR-TASS, washingtonpost.com)


OSCE unable to access all but a small area of #MH17 crash site due to aggressive armed rebel guards. "Some looked slightly intoxicated."
12:30 PM - 18 Jul 2014


MOSCOW (AP) — A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a bizarre version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash — suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off.
The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.
The Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 was shot down Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard. The plane was flying 10,000 meters above an area where Ukrainian forces have been fighting separatist rebels. Each side accuses the other of downing the plane.
U.S. intelligence authorities said a surface-to-air missile brought down the plane, and U.S. Ambassador Samantha Power told the U.N. Security Council in New York on Friday that the missile was likely fired from a rebel-held area near the Russian border.
Girkin, also known as Strelkov and allegedly a former Russian military intelligence agent, said he couldn't confirm the information. But it's sure to add to the intense emotions surrounding the crash, with the rebels accused of shooting down the plane.
Girkin said "Ukrainian authorities are capable of any baseness."
He claimed that a large amount of blood serum and medications were found in the wreckage


edited for more zaniness...
Well played, God. Well played".
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby km artlu » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:51 pm

cui bono?
In veiled criticism of the lack of European support for US-led economic sanctions against Russia, Obama said the loss of so many European lives should serve as a "wake-up call" for Europe.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby Morty » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:52 pm

JackRiddler » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:42 am wrote:Is it possible to fake some electronic signature for a plane to make it look like a military flight, or to remotely take over the guidance system of a BuK missile?

Remember this incredible graphic: MH17 went right through the gap between the two shootdowns in the three days before, diverting (according to the flight route database provided by Zero Hedge via Morty) away from the much safer route it had been following.


Elfismiles supplies that graphic. Thanks elfismiles!

I remember reading somewhere yesterday that commercial jets all send of a distinct electronic signal. I don't know how it works. Could it possibly be turned off so that the guys on the ground with the SAM think it's not a commercial jet?...
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:49 pm

.

Hooray for full-spectrum universal total electronic global surveillance and Star Wars! MIC Win!

High-tech spycraft tracked missile's path to Malaysia Airlines jet

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow ... story.html

By Ralph Vartabedian, W.J. Hennigan

Spy specialty known as measurement and signature intelligence played role in Ukraine missile detection

US intelligence in Ukraine: 'They would have known exactly where it was launched, where it was headed'

Advanced U.S. satellites played a key role in the determination by intelligence officials that a surface-to-air missile shot down a Malaysian jetliner over Ukraine on Thursday.

The assessment was almost certainly based on a technical branch of spycraft known as measurement and signature intelligence, or MASINT, analysts said. The method detects, tracks and identifies a variety of electronic signatures, including radar.

The U.S. operates fleets of listening satellites and early warning satellites that could have identified the location of a missile launch site and its trajectory as it shot up to the 33,000-foot cruising altitude of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777.

The Pentagon would have detected the launch because of its heat signature, said Riki Ellison, founder and chairman of Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance, a group that lobbies for missile defense spending.

The U.S. Air Force has satellites in high-Earth orbit that use infrared sensors to detect heat from missile and booster plumes against Earth's background. Called the Defense Support Program, the system provides early warning for intercontinental ballistic missile launches.

The satellites are sensitive enough to sense hot spots in forest fires, according to the Air Force.

U.S. radar installations and other assets in the region would assist in tracking any surface-to-air missile, which Ukrainian officials have said probably came from a Russian-made Buk system. The information would be relayed to U.S. European Command, headquartered in Stuttgart, Germany.

"They would have known exactly where it was launched, where it was headed, and the rate at which it was traveling," Ellison said.

Separately, the U.S. operates sensitive listening satellites that can capture a wide range of electronic emissions from foreign nations' defense systems, allowing analysts to determine the origin of the signals and the type weapon that was used.

For instance, the Buk missile uses a strong radar search and tracking system to find its targets and then helps guide a missile to the target. At some point in its flight, the missile begins to use its own radar system, emitting a unique signal.

The combination of unique signals over a period of seconds or minutes would allow a U.S. satellite to triangulate the point of launch and track the trajectory of the missile.


For more news on the Malaysia Airlines crash, follow @rvartabedian and @wjhenn on Twitter.





zangtang » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:38 pm wrote:FWIW - ITV2 just pulled the bond film 'Goldeneye' and replaced with rom-com pap 'couples retreat'......intuition tells me because of the Ukraine 777......cant remember specific plot points other than super-duper helicopter gets stolen by eastern/fall of ussr arms dealer.....cant recall false flag/ aircraft shootdown / financial meltdown in the flick.... - this from wikipedia :

SNIP

what in the film mirrors, or could be seen to mirror...what is happening, or is speculated to be happening right now ?


Possibly because of the Cold War triumph scene, in which Bond drives a tank chasing the bad guys through the former Leningrad, flattening cars and blowing up shit with impunity?

That wouldn't be a problem for the NY Daily News, though:

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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby 8bitagent » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:13 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:15 pm wrote:
8bitagent » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:03 pm wrote:
Is there a history of issues with Malaysia 777 planes before this year?


Sir: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777 ... _accidents


Thank you.

Before 2013, the only fatality involving the twinjet occurred in a refueling fire at Denver International Airport on September 5, 2001, during which a ground worker sustained fatal burns.[206] The aircraft, operated by British Airways, suffered fire damage to the lower wing panels and engine housing; it was later repaired and returned to service.[206][207]


Curious...
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby 82_28 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:18 pm

8bitagent » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:13 pm wrote:
Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:15 pm wrote:
8bitagent » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:03 pm wrote:
Is there a history of issues with Malaysia 777 planes before this year?


Sir: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777 ... _accidents


Thank you.

Before 2013, the only fatality involving the twinjet occurred in a refueling fire at Denver International Airport on September 5, 2001, during which a ground worker sustained fatal burns.[206] The aircraft, operated by British Airways, suffered fire damage to the lower wing panels and engine housing; it was later repaired and returned to service.[206][207]


Curious...


Yes indeed, given the date! 6 days to go!
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby 8bitagent » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:18 am

NBC News reporting that "US Intel" believes the Russian military ordered the shoot down of MH17, but that the BUK was Ukranian military seized by the pro russian forces.
Im like wtf? http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukrain ... ht-n159931


82_28 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:18 pm wrote:
8bitagent » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:13 pm wrote:
Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:15 pm wrote:
8bitagent » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:03 pm wrote:
Is there a history of issues with Malaysia 777 planes before this year?


Sir: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777 ... _accidents


Thank you.

Before 2013, the only fatality involving the twinjet occurred in a refueling fire at Denver International Airport on September 5, 2001, during which a ground worker sustained fatal burns.[206] The aircraft, operated by British Airways, suffered fire damage to the lower wing panels and engine housing; it was later repaired and returned to service.[206][207]


Curious...


Yes indeed, given the date! 6 days to go!


My close friend Jake who I've never known to ever talk about conspiracies much less politics or question anything, during our talk on the phone tonight said something like "man what's up with that Malaysian flight thing? First one goes missing without a trace and now one gets blown out of the sky...it's like reality is fucking with us".

Couldn't agree more, with a wink and a nod...
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby 8bitagent » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:27 am

This plane used for MH17 had its first flight 17 years ago on July 17, 1997, and now is apparently shot down on July 17, 2014.

http://copycateffect.blogspot.com/2014/07/MH17.html
http://www.planespotters.net/Production ... rlines.php

MH17
Construction Number (MSN) 28411
Line Number 84
Aircraft Type Boeing 777-2H6(ER)
First Flight 17. Jul 1997
Age 17 Years
Airframe Status Written Off[/b]

Again I dont mean to get into numerology/syncs...but man....there's that theory that when shit starts to get weird, syncs and numerology manifest in increasing frequency.



Head of the IMF gives a recent speech exhaustively pointing out the magick numerology power of 7 in multiples, in this "magick year" she calls it.
It doesnt take a Tex Marrees wackadoo to understand exactly what she's saying
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Re: Malaysia Airlines plane missing over Vietnam

Postby GuyWhoInventedFire » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:58 am

This is long but well worth a read. A retired air defense analyst reviews the system of checks and balances in civilian and military air traffic control, then weighs the technical capabilities of each of the potential culprits in relation to these.

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... s-and.html

What about the Ukrainians?

Here the reality is dramatically different: almost all of the Ukrainian air defense equipment is hopelessly outdated, far in excess of its normal shelf life. The Ukie air defense systems have not trained with live firing for dacades. Unlike the Russian who use contracted professionals on all crucial levels, the Ukies are known to be using conscripts simply due to a lack of funds. To illustrate the bloodly mess the Ukie air defenses are, it is enough to recall here how gross incompetence, mismanagement and outdated equipment resulted in the downing of the Siberian Airlines civilian aircraft in 2001. Since then, things in the Ukie air defenses have only gotten much worse. Still, the Ukies did have an ATC which at the very least should have reported that a civilian airline had a flight plan which would follow the points XYZ. I just cannot imagine a Ukie officer giving the order to shoot at an aircraft without checking for the available flight plans. Also, as far as I know, nobody ever reported that the transponder on the aircraft did not work and, if so, then that means that the Ukie air defense crew should have been receiving a clear signal identifying the aircraft. Let me add here that you can purchase special receivers and antennas which can receive transponder signals on the market and that they are comparatively cheap (1000 bucks range I think). Lastly, but still an option, a Ukie air defense operator could have simply lifted the phone, called the ATC and asked who such and such aircraft was. And even without that: when you see an aircraft flying right around 550 knots at 10'000m in a straight line in a civilian air traffic corridor, you can kinda guess that this is not a military aircraft on a bombing run. So regardless of the state of disrepair of the Ukie air defense forces, there is just no way that they could have mistaken this airliner for a Russian military jet flying on a combat mission. Oh, and did I mention MH17 was flying on west to east course, not from Russia, but towards Russia? Bottom line here for me is this: there is no way the Ukies could have shot down this aircraft by mistake...

Cui bono?

Well here at least the reply is unambiguous: only the junta in Kiev could have benefited from this tragedy. For the Russians and the Novorussians, this is something between a real pain and a disaster. Just when the Novorussians were winning without any overt help from Moscow and just when Moscow was gradually successful in denouncing the human costs of Poroshenko's murderous policies - suddenly the entire planet focuses just on one downed aircraft and the imperial corporate media blames it all on Russia. As for Poroshenko, this disaster is God-sent: not only has everybody forgotten that much promised "surprise" turned out to be a disaster, he can now kill scores of Novorussians with no risks of that being reported in the corporate media. Not only that, but that gives the Ukies a golden excuse to ask for ""protection" from their "aggressive and threatening neighbor". Again, the only party who can benefit from this disaster is the junta. So, in summary, we have this list of candidates:

1) A deliberate or mistaken Russian attack: superlatively unlikely
2) A mistaken Ukrainian attack: most unlikely
3) A deliberate Ukrainian attack: most likely
4) A mistaken Novorussian attack: possible
5) A deliberate Novorussian attack: most unlikely

I don't know about you, but to me #3 is the one blinking red.
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