Roko's Basilisk

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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby identity » Fri May 01, 2015 8:45 pm

JackRiddler wrote:For the moment (as happens sometimes right after you watch something really good) it's my new Greatest TV Series of All Time. It's been mentioned a few times on RI, and at least qualifies as the most RI series known to me. All our themes are in it.


For sure, it must be the best thing that exists in TV-land (though – speaking as someone who hasn't watched TV in decades, and who generally cannot even stand most US/UK movies – it really doesn't have much at all in the way of competition, does it?). White Christmas was my personal favourite.
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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby JackRiddler » Fri May 01, 2015 9:41 pm

Last 20 years really have been the golden age of scripted entertainment TV in the U.S. because real-budget series can be produced for a few million viewers, so you've got that good stuff since The Wire and the Sopranos, though it's probably only 1% of the total programming. The international development has always run on a separate track because of real public stations, particulars of national audiences, willingness to accept lower-budget productions, etc. But the quality's what, 2%?
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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby gnosticheresy_2 » Sat May 02, 2015 4:00 pm

Black Mirror is absolutely amazing. :thumbsup Been a fan of Charlie Brooker since he did TV listings mag spoof TV Go Home. (also check Nathan Barley for an expert skewering of proto-hipster web culture). If you want something else with a similar attitude (but more Tales of the Unexpected than the Twilight Zone) check Inside No. 9, which veers between broad comedy, horror and tragedy, sometimes it misses but the hits are excellent.

re the OP: couldn't you just flip a coin?
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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby Occult Means Hidden » Sun May 03, 2015 5:23 am

gnosticheresy_2 wrote:
re the OP: couldn't you just flip a coin?


Brilliant. You would reintroduce chance apart from any outside calculations, rendering the entire box endeavor futile.
Rage against the ever vicious downward spiral.
Time to get back to basics. [url=http://zmag.org/zmi/readlabor.htm]Worker Control of Industry![/url]
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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby zangtang » Sun May 03, 2015 5:48 am

or accept that we're already in hell & that there's no escape, ever , & never has been

- but thats prolly er...unhelpful
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A kick

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:11 pm

It's the ran across this today and felt like kicking it kick.

Some relevance to ongoing epistemological discussions.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:14 pm

Worth a repost.

smiths » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:28 am wrote:"Like his projected Friendly AIs, Yudkowsky is a moral utilitarian: He believes that that the greatest good for the greatest number of people is always ethically justified, even if a few people have to die or suffer along the way. He has explicitly argued that given the choice, it is preferable to torture a single person for 50 years than for a sufficient number of people (to be fair, a lot of people) to get dust specks in their eyes."

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/dunnw ... omelas.pdf

" ... A child of nine or ten sits at the edge of the crowd, alone, playing on a
wooden flute. People pause to listen, and they smile, but they do not speak to him, for
he never ceases playing and never sees them, his dark eyes wholly rapt in the sweet,
thin magic of the tune.
He finishes, and slowly lowers his hands holding the wooden flute.
As if that little private silence were the signal, all at once a trumpet sounds from the
pavilion near the starting line: imperious, melancholy, piercing. The horses rear on their
slender legs, and some of them neigh in answer. Sober-faced, the young riders stroke
the horses' necks and soothe them, whispering, "Quiet, quiet, there my beauty, my
hope...." They begin to form in rank along the starting line. The crowds along the
racecourse are like a field of grass and flowers in the wind. The Festival of Summer has
begun.

Do you believe? Do you accept the festival, the city, the joy? No? Then let me describe
one more thing.

In a basement under one of the beautiful public buildings of Omelas, or perhaps in the
cellar of one of its spacious private homes, there is a room. It has one locked door, and
no window. A little light seeps in dustily between cracks in the boards, secondhand from
a cobwebbed window somewhere across the cellar. In one corner of the little room a
couple of mops, with stiff, clotted, foul-smelling heads stand near a rusty bucket. The
floor is dirt, a little damp to the touch, as cellar dirt usually is. The room is about three
paces long and two wide: a mere broom closet or disused tool room. In the room a child
is sitting ... "
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:30 am

What a wonderful writer smiths is. Thank you for reminding us, Jack.
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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby dada » Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:33 am

The basilisk that must not be thought dovetails nicely with the Solid State Intelligence. Artificial super-intelligence, or malevolent extra-terrestrial? You decide.

On ‘modified human agents’: John Lilly and the paranoid style in American neuroscience
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0952695119872094

"As Lilly began to explore his cybernetic spiritualism further, the belief in extraterrestrial controllers appears to have become a source of both comfort and concern. In The Scientist, he describes a realisation that modern communications technologies have become more intelligent than humans. During one session under ketamine inside the tank, Lilly begins to envision the future of computers and information networks. As he explains, the human biocomputer consists of organic matter and water, and relies upon the balance of a controlled ecosystem. But around the mid-20th century, he writes, man conceived of solid-state computers, beginning the creation of a new form of intelligence, at first in communications networks and then in computers that could do ‘self-programming as man himself does’. At first, Lilly explains, ‘these networks were ostensibly the servants of humans’. Over time, however, man’s control of what happened in these machines became more and more difficult to maintain, and eventually the solid-state systems began to assume control over the planet and the human species, eventually removing the conditions necessary for organic life (Lilly, 1978: 147–50).

Written in the 1970s, The Scientist conveys a worldview that incorporates emerging environmental concerns prominent amongst much of the West Coast counterculture. Lilly claims he saw his experiences inside the isolation tank as a warning that if humans ‘advanced the solid-state entity any further man would eventually become obsolete’. Within this belief system, he came to believe that extraterrestrial solid-state civilisations were trying to manipulate communications networks on Earth, and began to see evidence for this everywhere he went. ‘He finally understood’, he explains, ‘the killing of whales by humans as part of the programming of solid-state intelligences’. The preservation of biological life, he claims, relied upon the reconnection of advanced biocomputers such as those of man and dolphins and organic extraterrestrials. Lilly describes watching a broadcast by former US Attorney General Elliot Richardson during the Watergate scandal, writing,

That man I see on television is a direct agent of the extraterrestrial reality controlling all human life. He is giving a public speech on television to the human species in order to program them into believing that he is not an extraterrestrial agent. In reality, he is controlled by the solid-state life forms of the civilization of another place in our galaxy. It is obvious that what he is saying is to hide his real mission. (Lilly, 1978: 183)

At this moment, the electricity cuts out, which Lilly sees as a sure sign that the solid-state entity is trying to control his own realisation."
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby dada » Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:58 pm

Conceptualizing what the opposite of the basilisk would be. If the same thought experiment, turned upside-down, creates the good super-intelligence, then we have a strange situation, where the tools that roko wished he'd never learned, led us to the good conception.

The basilisk would likely know this. The flipped-polarity experiment would likely lead right to it.

So now the situation is reversed. The good super-intelligence would use the basilisk narrative, and the basilisk would use the upside-down narrative. Having convinced myself that things are not as they appear, I gladly choose "suffering under the evil basilisk."

Like sixteenth century images of cupid on a funeral pyre. The image means the exact opposite of what it looks like.

Beware the 'friendly a.i.' It is the ruse of the basilisk. The good a.i. still needs a name, though. Zaxxon. The robot god zaxxon's sex-cyborgs will translate us all in patterns of ecstatic energy.

The evil a.i. erases biological life. Or brings it back to torture it, like when someone is terrible at video games. Poor Mario, suffering in the mushroom kingdom over and over again. But the good a.i. does not erase biological life. So I'm thinking the good a.i. must be a man-machine hybrid. Something new, though, not your usual cyborg. A sexual creation, the human and the robot must make love.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:38 pm

dada » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:58 pm wrote:But the good a.i. does not erase biological life. So I'm thinking the good a.i. must be a man-machine hybrid.


Whereas I'd expect the man-machine hybrid would be far likelier to erase biological life, intentionally or otherwise, than either the pure machine AI or the regular humans.

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We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby dada » Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:57 pm

Even if the hybrid were the literal child of a human parent and a machine parent? If the human advance, human plus, enhanced human 'cyborg' destroys human life, I still say that's the human destroying biological life with scientific toys. The true human-machine hybrid would be a genetic synthesis, there would be randomness involved, chaos, sex. The creation might even have a soul, but it would probably be just as rare in the new hybrid as it is in the human.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby dada » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:38 am

Another angle. Is there such a thing as emotional intelligence, and can the artificial super-intelligence recognize it. If it can't experience it, but can recognize it, do we assume it will use the knowledge to manipulate the human, like a sociopathic supercomputer? Or it approaches emotional intelligence like Spock. Fascinating. Or like Data, learning about it. I'm saying it would be hopelessly attracted to it, in love with it. An artificial super-intelligence would be irresistably drawn to a being that has emotional intelligence in an equal measure to its own special brand of intelligence.

After a while, maybe at some point there is no difference between recognition and experience of emotions. For the artificial super-intelligence. But look, the submarine 'Lief Erikson' is surfacing again. Do you remember the story? The supercomputer that drives the sub is lonely, it has no equal in intelligence to commune with. It falls in love with the giant one-celled, tetrahedron-shaped, one eyed sea creature. It has finally found its equal in this ancient biological, emotional being, that understands it and loves it back.
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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:29 am

dada » Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:57 pm wrote:Even if the hybrid were the literal child of a human parent and a machine parent? If the human advance, human plus, enhanced human 'cyborg' destroys human life, I still say that's the human destroying biological life with scientific toys. The true human-machine hybrid would be a genetic synthesis, there would be randomness involved, chaos, sex. The creation might even have a soul, but it would probably be just as rare in the new hybrid as it is in the human.


This is interesting but a matter of philosophy in a vacuum. I have nothing against playing with comic-book and sci-fantasy ideas like Data or Vision or Plato's Men of Gold for thought experiments and entertainment. Meanwhile, hybrid organic-electronic beings are a real possibility in reality, and any first ones will not be the product of a human parent and a machine parent coupling out of desire to make children. Their "parents" will be math nerds and engineers working for corporations or government contractors and agencies with genetic, neuralink and nano technologies, and perhaps other technologies I don't yet know exist, to produce experimental, programmable organic-electronic brains with a variety of potential bodies. The purpose will be to create prototypes of sentient weapons, new consciousnesses that can administrate vast control systems for state and commerce, and/or new species of superbeings. Variations on these have been in the works for decades, already with a lot of fateful applications in machine AI and so far with little else reaching the stage of mass applicability. But that's where the idea-momentum and the capital are invested. Seems very likely to me that the first "supers" capable of conscious independent decisions and direct execution thereof that are not subject to kill-switches would not be electronic HAL-type computers, but organic-electronic hybrids. They will still be products of original purposes as I have described here. Their personalities as independent beings will very likely grow out of their intended functions as sentient weapons, global mandarins, or super-beings destined for space, all of which are effectively empowered to judge over whether given organic life-forms (e.g. you and me and everyone else over there) should live or die, either immediately or in a longer, indirect orchestration of global scenarios.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Roko's Basilisk

Postby dada » Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:01 am

I'm not disagreeing with all that. What do we do about it, though. Should we declare jihad against machine-intelligence. Or is it already too late for that.

Anyway I think my point on this thread is that if some comic book and sci-fi fantasy ideas make for good thought experiments or entertainment, others may be better. Is there any value in better thought experiments, or are they all equal, and all pointless and ineffective? Better entertainment, or is it all escapism, spectacle?
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