Neil deGrasse Tyson

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:41 pm

Friday, 8 August 2014
A Dick by any Other Name or Title
a dumb dick 'n d' grass update


The real contribution that Celeb scientists like Neil deGrasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins have made to their respective fields has been eclipsed by their personalities' prominence in the field of pop-science, which is down to their having spoken to the pet-causes of those who idolize them, some of whom wouldn't've even known the cause was theirs had it not resonated so radically hip. Correspondingly, they have been piggybacking off the inferred genius of Galileo and Darwin for an annoyingly long moment.

Of course, this is just my opinion. I am perfectly willing to listen to anyone who could demonstrate otherwise.

In simpler terms, particularly Dawkins would not be so beloved were it not for the bizarre human desire to mock and belittle people perceived as inferior by those who lack the capacity to demonstrate their would-be superiority beyond the occasional witty ad hominem. They need conceptual aids, theoretical support, someone to denigrate on their behalf. Therefore Dawkins!

But like William F. Buckley did for alleged conservatives, Dawkins regularly displays a mode of thinking that, when not outright dim, is merely genius in its playing to the simple-minded and those who prove all-too willing to settle for simple-mindedness as long as it frustrates their perceived adversaries.

Dawkins is a horrible model, not to mention spokesperson, for atheism, which does not need a capital fucking A.

As one who does not believe in a deity, I cringe at the evangelizing of atheism. The banning of religious doctrine from official public policy goes from being logical to tautological when somebody comes along to argue that it stems from the superiority of the scientific method.

The separation of church and state doesn't need to be augmented with smart-ass dicta and their technical domination of varying opinion. Particularly when its hammer is the seemingly always dichotomous: good-by-comparison, largely theoretical on the one hand versus myth-based theology that's shown no sign of retreat for the term of human civilization on the other, which would also seem rather convenient.

__


Tyson, to his credit, is no atheism thumper. He has attributed his passive rejection of religion to the irreconcilability of universally stated beneficences of whatever Higher Powers in question with the consistently murderous tendency of the universe.

Why would he, then, assume the benevolence of science and the people who use it as it relates to genetically modified organisms and industrial agriculture? To use the parlance of the press, he recently "slammed fear" and then "walked back" his slamming with the following:
"If your objection to GMOs is the morality of selling non-prerennial seed stocks, then focus on that. If your objection to GMOs is the monopolistic conduct of agribusiness, then focus on that. But to paint the entire concept of GMO with these particular issues is to blind yourself to the underlying truth of what humans have been doing -- and will continue to do -- to nature so that it best serves our survival. That's what all organisms do when they can, or would do, if they could. Those that didn't, have gone extinct extinct."



Would do if they could, indeed. Humans have been doing a lot of things "to survive". They gather together in groups and fight each other, for example. Some have even used this to their advantage and are so good at it that they have over the years managed to organize a labyrinthine flow of resources into gargantuan profit centers to bribe and blackmail others to coerce others to do their fighting for them and use religion as a ruse to acquire the spoils of their never-quite final victories - the spoils having been the real reason for the conquest all along.

Then, they use their spokespeople to continue to argue that their enemies are never fighting for survival, but an oppressive religious cause. In reality, no matter the side, the fighting can always be seen as one for survival, even if that survival is for an oppressive cause. I guess I am saying: It takes one to know one.

The corporation is an organism made up of people who work for their own survival versus the competition; they effectively lobby legislatures to achieve advantages for their particular organism; they know how to buy off scientists who will hardly get paid otherwise, who are not in-and-of-their-science benevolent - the universe being so murderous and all.

While science can be a tool to solve the problems of survival, when applied, it discriminates. Corporate organisms do not correct their mistakes even when they are detrimental to human survival at large. This has been demonstrated again and again.

GMO is just a label for the thing to be against. It's the facts in between the letters that good scientists, if they are going to venture educated guesses about something outside their specialty, should know more about.

When the industry successfully lobbies to advance their own funded research over others, successfully lobbies against labeling that would indicate their presence in the package, successfully sues farmers for patent infringement when their fields are cross contaminated with what's patented, it shouldn't be a surprise that people are contaminated by anti-GMO thinking. Why should anyone against GMOs focus on any one of the issues mentioned?

Oh, I know why? Because Neil deGrasse Tyson!

If you just accept his assertion at face value that "the underlying truth of what humans have been doing" is best for our survival, then you ignore that genetic modification funded by industrial agri-business was not about human survival to begin with. Their underlying truth is about their bottom-line. Belabor that point and the argument will eventually boil down to the idea that the bottom-line of agri-business benefits everyone. Gee, that sounds so reasonable, let's focus on that!

There are indeed genetic scientists who are concerned about the well-being of humanity and the survival thereof, but that has precious little to do with the science when it is applied towards someone's bottom-line. I will grant you, however, that the application of that science does become about survival when a GMO turns out to have adverse effects on its surroundings.

This leads the lab-coats' back to the drawing board, modifying those surroundings when all else fails; but more importantly to the bottom-line, it gets the lawyers scurrying back to the boardroom, always struggling for the survival of the company's double-plus good messaging.

What you won't get from a scientist working for the bottom-line is an admission that the applied science didn't accomplish what they said it would. If one were to apply the scientific method, one might conclude that industry scientists had been lying about the result they'd hoped to achieve and/or were lying about the result they had achieved, or that they just lie as a matter of course because that's what they get paid to do.

This doesn't mean one must be a direct beneficiary of the industry's largess. The application of the science Neil Tyson speaks of discriminates to the power of his paycheck. His response to the virtual uproar at his original stupidity was for the purpose of maintaining his palatability to as wide an audience as possible. Still, being skeptical of gen-tech science as it has been presented by big biotech is not a brand he can afford to endorse, so he paints them as having the health of humanity at heart, in spite of all the obvious signs that this is not the case.

That's the underlying truth of what these particular humans are doing - and to use Tyson's words again - will continue to do. These issues are not separable. His insistence that critics focus any one of them is not only illogical, but makes him suspect, in my opinion.

The bottom-line for a multi-million dollar corporation, expanding as we speak with trade agreements negotiated and drawn up in private, is that, like Tyson's universe, they would kill before they'd give up the anabolic gravy train funded by the same style public-private partnership that over the last year has been sending more & more murderous technology & weaponry into places like Syria, the Ukraine, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the latter two with help from Germany, with whom the Americans just happen to be co-beneficiaries (as far as one can tell) regarding that trade deal, as well as providing the Yanks assistance with remotely targeting groups and individuals who oppose the regimes who have been modified to be friendly to the bottom line.

Is it also knee-jerk to resist being smacked upon the other cheek by the likes that brought you NAFTA? Being neither Christian nor Democrat, I am curious. Speaking of which, the Americans have just recently - again, to use the parlance of the press - doubled down on their funding of the war against the people of Gaza. The American president and his minions in Congress can afford to express tepid misgivings about Israeli overkill, but neither organism proves willing or able to cut off its funding.

How can you trust the science if you cannot stop its most murderous applications?

So Tyson claims that when he was originally approached he didn't have the time to get into the nuances of the issue and, one Facebook post later, he has done so. Yet, he recognizes no nuance insofar as it might relate to the widespread application of genetic modification and the repeated consequential re-modification thereof. You know, like the practice of the science as it exists. His ignorance would seem to be on par with that of his depiction of the knee-jerk anti-GMO crowd. Otherwise, there's stuff he just chooses not to deal with.

You shouldn't take your cues on genetic engineering or economics from Neil deGrasse Tyson, even (or especially) if his knowledge of those disciplines exceeds yours. He might be able to regale with his tales of the awesome cosmos, but his insistence that a rational mind would ignore all but one ingredient out of the toxic mixture that is biotech & finance would be a clear indication he is, at best, a Renaissance man of the disingenuous kind.

And you shouldn't take the word of scientists working for the industry. No smart scientists' scientist would.

__


And you sure as fuck shouldn't look to Richard Dawkins as an authority on the scientific method. For like Neil Tyson, Dawkins has a brand to protect. Well, his brand is more of a shtick.

In his now (in)famous tweet triad, he layeth out for the enlightenment of you woefully ignorant, or for the amusement of his "you just don't get it" Twitter followers:
Image

Keep in mind that he is not necessarily saying X is bad. He is just saying. Oh...
Image


Seriously? Why?
Image


I know what the words themselves mean, but I'm still left wondering why.

Not the oft-invoked essay Why X is Wrong when the author means How X is Wrong, but why does he want to point out the less-badness of "mild pedophilia" - a sophisticated term he apparently came up with all by himself?

And are pedophilia (exclusively of mind) and pedophilia (wherein the victim does not resist in a manner requiring the use of force) both mild?

Surely Richard Dawkins has been date-raped, hence his expertise on its level of badness. "No!" his fans protest, he is just postulating a formula whereupon neither statement implies endorsement.

O what parsing within parsing. Using a faux-science pattern to render narrowly empirical any random person's subjective belief about the level of badness of any other random person's actual experiences - irrespective of the postulater's or badness-rater's having owned the experience themselves - drawn in the desire to defend this judgment as an objective position. Why?

I'll tell you why. Because it takes pretty dubious logic to quantify the experience of being raped. Therefore Dawkins!

It might be tempting to use the law, ie. the Scales of Justice, to support dividing rape into a range of severity. But even then, the difference in the finding of- and/or sentencing for date-rape and rape at knifepoint has to do with the multiple crimes committed in the case of the latter, and the court's view on the reliability of witness testimony in the case of the former. And legal justice has proven to be many things, but it's certainly not a logical science that is capable of fair sentencing guidelines.

By the way, what about date-rape at knifepoint? No, I suspect Dawkins is more of the Classic Date-Rape School, wherein when the knife comes out, the date is over; but if she wakes up in obvious pain with no memory of having been violated, she got lucky. Relatively speaking, of course. I mean, that goes without saying, right?

__


At any rate, dude sure has a flair for belittling others personal experience when it is couched in his pet crusade:

For context, read the whole article at the link above. In short, because the woman mentioned in the article bothered to tell atheist men that she doesn't like to be hit on all the time, let alone does she feel comfortable being hit on alone in a hotel elevator at 4am with the would-be romantic, she deserves to be mocked for not ignoring her concerns completely. Why? Because Islamism!

It's oddly reminiscent of the "If you don't like it, move to Iran" argument.

He then goes on to reduce her level of discomfort in that elevator to his level of offense being with a guy chewing gum in the same situation (you see, science!) wherein he can "simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator."

(If you think, with that last bit, he was provocatively employing, by way of allusion, tasteless rape humor, go away until you learn to think that he wasn't.)

He continues later by reducing her experience further, writing that it "was not even slightly bad, it was zero bad".

Okay, I think I am catching on.
Image

His negation of this woman's concern (the mocking not only of her desire to communicate it, but the concern itself) makes me wonder what he really thinks of mild pedophilia and date-rape or, excuse me, what his science is really telling us. I mean, his non-endorsement of X is open to a pretty broad interpretation, especially when you view the entire record.

Prima facie, we can safely say that with his latest no-holds-barred non-endorsement of mild pedophilia and date-rape (and, by extension, date-pedophilia), he nevertheless thinks it's not all-that bad. And his relativism paints a more colorful spectrum than just "I don't endorse date-rape". That he has spent such a goodly amount of time over the course of his "career" downplaying feminist concerns vis-à-vis the actual horrors perpetuated by the evilist of evils that actual evil-doers actually do that he has now forged a formula to defend it simply follows the same pattern: Being dapper with the dick-move.

Suffice it to say that Dawkins is no Renaissance man. He seems to have only the one note, and it's a dull one. At least he doesn't have a knife on him, I guess.

In conclusion: Tyson is bad. Dawkins is worse. In this case the axiom works for my purposes, but that doesn't mean you can just plug anything into it without revealing what a willfully ignorant dick you are.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby DrEvil » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:46 pm

Nordic » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:40 pm wrote:
DrEvil » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:48 am wrote:@Sounder: Still waiting on you to explain where Tyson is lying about GMO's.
Or did you just make that up?



http://m.motherjones.com/environment/20 ... t-response

He's either a complete ignoramus or a sellout. Which do you think is most likely?

To compare selective breeding to GMO's and say they're basically the same thing is nothing but a dirty fucking lie.

You would never get a glow in the dark cat that way, or spider DNA into goats milk.

And even in this article he ignores that Monsanto's goals behind GMOs are to make them impervious to Monsanto's very own poisons, so you can douse even more of the poisons onto the fields. He ignores how super weeds are destroying farmland in the US, especially in the South, and he doesn't mention that GMOs have never been tested on people.

Tyson is another corporate charmer media figure. Fuck him.


I don't think he's either an ignoramus or a sellout. He's a famous guy with an opinion. GMO's are not his expertise, so I wouldn't expect him to be an expert on the subject (Duh).

I agree that selective breeding and lab-created GMO's are not the same though, and as he said, they should be labelled separately.

And so what if he doesn't mention Monsanto's goals? That wasn't the question. He's talking about GMO's in general. Of course Monsanto are scum, that doesn't equate to all GMO's being the work of the Devil. So far the biggest problem seems to be Roundup, not the GMO's themselves (not to mention all the researchers and companies who are not Monsanto..).

And GMO's have been tested on humans. You've probably been eating them for years, and if not you, then people you know, because they have been on the market for years. A lot of it unlabeled.

Also, do you know someone with diabetes? Guess how they make insulin; In great big tanks full of genetically modified organisms, and people are injecting it straight into their bodies :shock:.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby stefano » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:13 am

coffin_dodger » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:59 pm wrote:It's not about conspiracy, yathrib. It's about state of mind. No offence, but I think I'm not going to be able to explain it to your liking. Cheers.

If you can't explain it then perhaps you shouldn't be so sure about it.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby Sounder » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:59 pm

Great find Spiro, thanks.


What you won't get from a scientist working for the bottom-line is an admission that the applied science didn't accomplish what they said it would. If one were to apply the scientific method, one might conclude that industry scientists had been lying about the result they'd hoped to achieve and/or were lying about the result they had achieved, or that they just lie as a matter of course because that's what they get paid to do.

This doesn't mean one must be a direct beneficiary of the industry's largess. The application of the science Neil Tyson speaks of discriminates to the power of his paycheck. His response to the virtual uproar at his original stupidity was for the purpose of maintaining his palatability to as wide an audience as possible. Still, being skeptical of gen-tech science as it has been presented by big biotech is not a brand he can afford to endorse, so he paints them as having the health of humanity at heart, in spite of all the obvious signs that this is not the case.

That's the underlying truth of what these particular humans are doing - and to use Tyson's words again - will continue to do. These issues are not separable. His insistence that critics focus any one of them is not only illogical, but makes him suspect, in my opinion.

The bottom-line for a multi-million dollar corporation, expanding as we speak with trade agreements negotiated and drawn up in private, is that, like Tyson's universe, they would kill before they'd give up the anabolic gravy train funded by the same style public-private partnership that over the last year has been sending more & more murderous technology & weaponry into places like Syria, the Ukraine, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the latter two with help from Germany, with whom the Americans just happen to be co-beneficiaries (as far as one can tell) regarding that trade deal, as well as providing the Yanks assistance with remotely targeting groups and individuals who oppose the regimes who have been modified to be friendly to the bottom line.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:12 pm

.
F#CK N DeG T.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby Nordic » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:16 am

DrEvil » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:46 pm wrote:
Nordic » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:40 pm wrote:
DrEvil » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:48 am wrote:@Sounder: Still waiting on you to explain where Tyson is lying about GMO's.
Or did you just make that up?



http://m.motherjones.com/environment/20 ... t-response

He's either a complete ignoramus or a sellout. Which do you think is most likely?

To compare selective breeding to GMO's and say they're basically the same thing is nothing but a dirty fucking lie.

You would never get a glow in the dark cat that way, or spider DNA into goats milk.

And even in this article he ignores that Monsanto's goals behind GMOs are to make them impervious to Monsanto's very own poisons, so you can douse even more of the poisons onto the fields. He ignores how super weeds are destroying farmland in the US, especially in the South, and he doesn't mention that GMOs have never been tested on people.

Tyson is another corporate charmer media figure. Fuck him.


I don't think he's either an ignoramus or a sellout. He's a famous guy with an opinion.


It's not an opinion, it's a bad fact. A bad fact, knowingly uttered, is a lie.

If he didn't know he was lying the first time he said it, he damn well knows it was a bad fact now, and he hasn't corrected himself. Therefore, his silence translates to his first bad fact being a lie.

You don't get on national television, and you don't STAY on national television, without playing along with the corporatocracy.

That's a good fact.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby Sounder » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:10 am

Nordic wrote...
You don't get on national television, and you don't STAY on national television, without playing along with the corporatocracy.


Now that is a fact.

All the propagandist enablers ought to wake the fuck up.

At least some folk know who you are. :coolshades
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby coffin_dodger » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:56 am

stefano wrote:
coffin_dodger » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:59 pm wrote:It's not about conspiracy, yathrib. It's about state of mind. No offence, but I think I'm not going to be able to explain it to your liking. Cheers.

If you can't explain it then perhaps you shouldn't be so sure about it.


Stefano - I'm going to try to explain my reasoning to you, but I feel that no matter how I word it, it may sound condescending or trite. I wish no offense. I come to this board to explore other and expound my own ideas but the very nature of online forums prohobits natural flows of conversation which often result in stunted monologues.

No offence, but I think I'm not going to be able to explain it to your liking


There comes a point, in a normal, real-world conversation, that you can sense that the other party is just not interested in what you have say. They are in an alternate view of reality that does not tally with your own and have no wish to, or cannot, contemplate your worldview. In a normal conversation, I would steer conversation to something else on which we may be able to find common ground - and if we could find common ground, then coming at the original disagreement from a different perspective may be possible. Forum exchanges are not particularly friendly to this, as threads are topic specific and derailing is frowned upon (understandably).

N DeGT is a liar. The term 'liar' covers a broad spectrum - white lies, bare-faced, to conceal the truth, for personal gain etc. But N DeGT occupies a kind of mental state that intreagues me the most - the liar that believes, within themselves, that any lie they tell will be swallowed, no matter how fantastical. The kind of lie that even in face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary - is 'true' in the mind of Tyson:

from the second article posted on page 1 of this thread, by stillrobertpaulsen:
Tyson gave an off-the-cuff answer to a question delivered by a French interviewer in French during a post-talk book-signing. Tyson admits that he doesn’t speak French and has “no memory of how I figured out that (he) was asking me about GMO’s.”


Just to be absolutely clear here - Tyson was asked a question in a foreign language and chipped in with an answer (actually, a defense of GMO) - and then claimed, when challenged about his being able to understand a foreign language he stated he did not understand, that he has"“no memory of how I figured out that (he) was asking me about GMO’s.” And not just plain old 'je m'appelle Neil' standard of French, but talking the technicalities of GMO's in a foreign language he doesn't know.

So, here we have a chap, very personable at that, the mouthpiece of cutting edge astro-physics, who has "no memory of how he understands a foreign language."

Does that not strike you as odd? Even a little bit? The mind-state of an individual that can make that statement, without a hint of irony, is not someone that I can trust. If he can dismiss that kind of inexplicable, bizarre behaviour and get away with it (which he has), might there not be other things that he realises he can get away with? These questions are, of course, rhetorical.

To be honest, I'm gobsmacked that his credibility remains intact. He doesn't remember how he learned a foreign language! :rofl2

Time will tell with regards to N DeGT. My intuition tells me we haven't heard the last of him. The more he gets away with it - the more emboldened he will become.

If I've missed the mark here and failed to explain myself properly, I don't have the mental accuity or writing skills to verbalise my concerns effectively. This is always a possibility.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby stefano » Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:34 am

Sounder » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:10 pm wrote:All the propagandist enablers ought to wake the fuck up.

At least some folk know who you are. :coolshades

You really actually love your dichotomies, don't you? Decline to jump on the anti-science bandwagon? You are a propagandist enabler!

I'm still waiting for you to say exactly what you have against Tyson - is it just the fact that he doesn't think shikimate pathways are the single most important thing to mention about GMOs? Because I looked into that - I was curious because I'd never seen the word shikimate and suspected it was some made-up thing. It's not, but I wasn't far off. All the pages that warn about glyphosate and its effects on gut bacteria are based on a single bullshit article called Glyphosate’s Suppression of Cytochrome P450 Enzymes and Amino Acid Biosynthesis by the Gut Microbiome: Pathways to Modern Diseases by Anthony Samsel and Stephanie Seneff, published in a journal called Entropy. The article is not, in fact, about any tests that the authors did themselves - it's a literature review done using computers. Neither Samsel nor Seneff is a biologist, the paper is very weak, and Entropy isn't a proper journal - it's a 'pay for play' thing in which anyone can get published if they pay the high publishing fees. It is 'peer reviewed' in the most technical sense, meaning that someone has given it a look-over and made a few suggestions, but that person wouldn't have been a biologist and would have done the absolute bare minimum to comply with the definition of review.

So it's bullshit. What's particularly funny is that an earlier paper by Samsel and Seneff, published in a similarly obscure vanity journal, has come up for discussion here before, and you, Sounder, called it "junk science." Somehow, though, you didn't connect the dots on the shikimate thing - you didn't make the effort to look for a source on the claims and ignored me when I asked for details the first time you brought it up in this thread. Is that the opposite of propaganda enabling? I put it to you that it is not.

As for Tyson's insistence on separating the issues when it comes to GMOs - to focus on Roundup poisoning or topsoil degradation or Monsanto's business model when discussing concerns about GMOs - that is excellent advice. Contra the article Spiro posted, it's essential to focus on specific issues instead of hysterically going on about GMOs as though it is a single problem. Selective breeding, Nordic, is genetic modification. There's a range of GM from breeding new kinds of citrus through splicing genes to making glow-in-the-dark cats, and some GM crops (most? dunno) are closer to heirloom crops than they are to phosphorescent felines.

Here are some reasons why an intelligent man of good faith might hesitate to indiscriminately condemn GM crops as a class, and might instead tell people to rather focus on certain clearly dangerous and anti-social aspects of it:

In 1961, India was on the brink of mass famine.[3] Borlaug was invited to India by the adviser to the Indian minister of agriculture C. Subramaniam. Despite bureaucratic hurdles imposed by India's grain monopolies, the Ford Foundation and Indian government collaborated to import wheat seed from the International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center (CIMMYT). Punjab was selected by the Indian government to be the first site to try the new crops because of its reliable water supply and a history of agricultural success. India began its own Green Revolution program of plant breeding, irrigation development, and financing of agrochemicals.[4]

India soon adopted IR8 – a semi-dwarf rice variety developed by the International Rice Research Institute (IRRI) that could produce more grains of rice per plant when grown with certain fertilizers and irrigation. In 1968, Indian agronomist S.K. De Datta published his findings that IR8 rice yielded about 5 tons per hectare with no fertilizer, and almost 10 tons per hectare under optimal conditions. This was 10 times the yield of traditional rice.[5] IR8 was a success throughout Asia, and dubbed the "Miracle Rice". IR8 was also developed into Semi-dwarf IR36.

Wheat yields in developing countries, 1950 to 2004, kg/ha baseline 500. The steep rise in crop yields in the U.S. began in the 1940s. The percentage of growth was fastest in the early rapid growth stage. In developing countries maize yields are still rapidly rising.[6]

In the 1960s, rice yields in India were about two tons per hectare; by the mid-1990s, they had risen to six tons per hectare. In the 1970s, rice cost about $550 a ton; in 2001, it cost under $200 a ton.[7] India became one of the world's most successful rice producers, and is now a major rice exporter, shipping nearly 4.5 million tons in 2006.

In 1960, the Government of the Republic of the Philippines with Ford and Rockefeller Foundations established IRRI (International Rice Research Institute). A rice crossing between Dee-Geo-woo-gen and Peta was done at IRRI in 1962. In 1966, one of the breeding lines became a new cultivar, IR8.[8] IR8 required the use of fertilizers and pesticides, but produced substantially higher yields than the traditional cultivars. Annual rice production in the Philippines increased from 3.7 to 7.7 million tonnes in two decades.[9] The switch to IR8 rice made the Philippines a rice exporter for the first time in the 20th century.[10] But the heavy pesticide use reduced the number of fish and frog species found in rice paddies.[11]


And here is a good quote which might illustrate why I continue to think the scientists - even Tyson, who avoids politics, or Dawkins, who is a tit - are on my side. From the 2014 elections thread:

Jim Inhofe wrote:[T]he Genesis 8:22 that I use in there is that ‘as long as the earth remains there will be seed time and harvest, cold and heat, winter and summer, day and night.’ My point is, God’s still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous.


And yet, somehow, Tyson comes in for real venom on RI, while Inhofe is treated as some sort of specimen, or a manifestation of a natural law, maybe worth noting but certainly not worth getting upset about. I reckon this process has nothing do with real politics and is entirely about self-identification, and urge anyone who hasn't to read an essay Wombat posted last month and which has kept me thinking since I read it: I can tolerate anything except the outgroup by Scott Alexander.

Scott Alexander wrote:Imagine hearing that a liberal talk show host and comedian was so enraged by the actions of ISIS that he’d recorded and posted a video in which he shouts at them for ten minutes, cursing the “fanatical terrorists” and calling them “utter savages” with “savage values”.

If I heard that, I’d be kind of surprised. It doesn’t fit my model of what liberal talk show hosts do.

But the story I’m actually referring to is liberal talk show host / comedian Russell Brand making that same rant against Fox News for supporting war against the Islamic State, adding at the end that “Fox is worse than ISIS”.

That fits my model perfectly. You wouldn’t celebrate Osama’s death, only Thatcher’s. And you wouldn’t call ISIS savages, only Fox News. Fox is the outgroup, ISIS is just some random people off in a desert. You hate the outgroup, you don’t hate random desert people.


We've all gone through the rabbit hole to a certain depth, and changed the perimeters of our ingroups and outgroups accordingly. A lot of you think Tyson's part of the outgroup just because, given a public platform, he didn't say what you'd have wanted him to say. Maybe that is a pity, but I still say he's doing good work, and there are many far more valid targets of "fuck that guy" than old Neil.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby stefano » Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:46 am

coffin_dodger » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:56 pm wrote:Does that not strike you as odd? Even a little bit? The mind-state of an individual that can make that statement, without a hint of irony, is not someone that I can trust. If he can dismiss that kind of inexplicable, bizarre behaviour and get away with it (which he has), might there not be other things that he realises he can get away with? These questions are, of course, rhetorical.

To be honest, I'm gobsmacked that his credibility remains intact. He doesn't remember how he learned a foreign language! :rofl2

Time will tell with regards to N DeGT. My intuition tells me we haven't heard the last of him. The more he gets away with it - the more emboldened he will become.

If I've missed the mark here and failed to explain myself properly, I don't have the mental accuity or writing skills to verbalise my concerns effectively. This is always a possibility.

Fair enough - that is dodgy. As are the other issues raised here wrt Tyson making up quotes he attributed to political adversaries - it seems suspicious, and definitely worth noting. I haven't looked into it enough to make up my mind.

What I had in mind though, when I wrote the sentence you responded to, was the suspicion of 'scientism', or the idea that science is a front for exploitative global capitalism. Is it really? (And what is 'scientism'?) I don't think so - it's a tool, one which the moneyed have better been able to use than the rest of us. Like most tools. But there's nothing inevitable about that, and I see much more positive potential in the expansion of science - including economics, where some very interesting and pro-human research is being done at a high level for the first time in decades - than in an attitude that is suspicious of all the manifestations and practitioners of all sciences.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby stefano » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:09 am

coffin_dodger » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:56 pm wrote:Just to be absolutely clear here - Tyson was asked a question in a foreign language and chipped in with an answer (actually, a defense of GMO) - and then claimed, when challenged about his being able to understand a foreign language he stated he did not understand, that he has"“no memory of how I figured out that (he) was asking me about GMO’s.” And not just plain old 'je m'appelle Neil' standard of French, but talking the technicalities of GMO's in a foreign language he doesn't know.

Just to clarify on that - the video of what happened is on this page. Someone asks Tyson, in an English accent (weirdly) and quite slowly: "Que pensez-vous des plantes transgénétiques ?" Tyson replies in English. It's not unbelievable that someone with no French could have understood "plantes transgénétiques."

edit- I actually suspect that was a setup and that he was ready for the question. His answer is very pat and sounds thought-out in advance, like he practised it while shaving a few times. Might also explain why the questioner is a native English speaker. Vain, but still no reason for me to join the enraged "FUCK NEIL TYSON!!! FUCK HIM TO HELL!!!" gang.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:26 am

but the real question is ...Is Neil deGrasse Tyson anti-Semitic :P


sorry but I haven't seen a dust up like this since Joseph Campbell

who is actually the worst man on the planet ...move over Neil
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby coffin_dodger » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:35 am

seemslikeadream wrote:who is actually the worst man on the planet ...move over Neil


Thanks for putting it into perpsective for me, Slad. :hug1:
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:56 am

stefano » Today, 15:34 wrote:[quote="...As for Tyson's insistence on separating the issues when it comes to GMOs - to focus on Roundup poisoning or topsoil degradation or Monsanto's business model when discussing concerns about GMOs - that is excellent advice. Contra the article Spiro posted, it's essential to focus on specific issues instead of hysterically going on about GMOs as though it is a single problem. Selective breeding, Nordic, is genetic modification. There's a range of GM from breeding new kinds of citrus through splicing genes to making glow-in-the-dark cats, and some GM crops (most? dunno) are closer to heirloom crops than they are to phosphorescent felines.

Here are some reasons why an intelligent man of good faith might hesitate to indiscriminately condemn GM crops as a class, and might instead tell people to rather focus on certain clearly dangerous and anti-social aspects of it...


I think NDT is being disingenuous first by strawmanning the "anti-GMO crowd" as one tossing a blanket instead of leveling valid criticism. If it were not for those who are challenging GMOs, we wouldn't know about the problems he says they should focus on. My other issue–maybe this is picking a nit, but still–is that one can focus on this AND that, rather than this OR that.

As it relates to a need for further research versus an okay from the US and EU governments, on the other hand, the blanket almost always wins, and that is the one thrown by lobbyists for the industry. The people voting yea or nay on these questions usually lack the knowledge of the subject, which renders peer reviewed research anecdotal, and the legislator, people of faith in money.

edited, trying to fix quote code
Last edited by Spiro C. Thiery on Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:02 am

stefano » Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:09 am wrote:
coffin_dodger » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:56 pm wrote:Just to be absolutely clear here - Tyson was asked a question in a foreign language and chipped in with an answer (actually, a defense of GMO) - and then claimed, when challenged about his being able to understand a foreign language he stated he did not understand, that he has"“no memory of how I figured out that (he) was asking me about GMO’s.” And not just plain old 'je m'appelle Neil' standard of French, but talking the technicalities of GMO's in a foreign language he doesn't know.

Just to clarify on that - the video of what happened is on this page. Someone asks Tyson, in an English accent (weirdly) and quite slowly: "Que pensez-vous des plantes transgénétiques ?" Tyson replies in English. It's not unbelievable that someone with no French could have understood "plantes transgénétiques."

edit- I actually suspect that was a setup and that he was ready for the question. His answer is very pat and sounds thought-out in advance, like he practised it while shaving a few times. Might also explain why the questioner is a native English speaker. Vain, but still no reason for me to join the enraged "FUCK NEIL TYSON!!! FUCK HIM TO HELL!!!" gang.


To be clear -- speaking only for myself, of course -- it's more of a dispassionate, "FUCK NEIL DeG TYSON". He needn't be fucked to hell. Too dramatic. His shilling is more banal, more commonplace. Merely another compromised talking head among a sea of them.
That's not to take away from the value he may bring to the table in other areas. As with most things, there is useful intel to be found from any source. Few things are binary, other than code.

I may very well feel otherwise at some point downstream -- gotta remain fluid and ever-evolving -- but for now... F him.
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