Vaccine - Autism link

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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:56 pm

DrEvil » 12 Sep 2016 21:43 wrote:
And just out of morbid curiosity: what do you guys propose as an alternative to vaccines?


Anyone who wants vaccines can have them. Just don't take away the basic human rights and citizen privileges of those who do not.choose to vaccinate themselves and/or their children.

As for alternatives to vaccines, I would suggest universal healthcare coverage. good nutrition including a wide range of colors of organic fruits and vegetables, healthy lifestyles, exercise, sunlight in moderation, and healing and immune system boosting plants and herbs.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:59 pm

OP ED » 12 Sep 2016 13:34 wrote:Sears conduct actually sounds like a textbook definition of negligence. I'm more concerned that he was permitted to practice for so long.


Burn him! He didn't force vaccines on all of his patients quickly enough! Quack!
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:03 pm

OP ED » 12 Sep 2016 22:32 wrote:
I like having regulations. I don't want a return to the good olde days of leeches and icepicks, "hysteria", heroin and cigarettes used to treat asthma and etc etc. We did that already and we used to die a lot younger back then.


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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:13 pm

backtoiam » 12 Sep 2016 23:57 wrote:What is going on here? I am talking to the guy that a while back indicated that people that believe food can cure medicine are crazy, quacks, stupid, or which ever one of your words you used. I don't remember exactly. I believe I sited scurvy and vitamin c as an example for you and you never replied back to that I don't think.

And now you are telling me your doctor might prescribe fruit or a trip to the gym? What gives here? If you live in a place where food and nutrition are recognized as medicine and can cure disease why were you being derogatory against people that believe food and nutrition can cure disease? What gives? Something strange about that, real strange.


Nothing strange about that. Different hoax for different folks.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:19 pm

OP ED » 13 Sep 2016 00:24 wrote:Surely I don't jest. Of course it would depend on what you mean by "harm" if we're talking about mothers harming children. Child abuse and maltreatment rates have dropped significantly in the United States over the last few decades even as the criteria has become broader. But if we include neglect leading to injury or poor health even at today's lower rates we'd be looking at about ten to twenty percent of mothers who do these things, for various reasons. About one quarter of children are victims of at least moderate neglect at some point in their young lives and mothers are disproportionately responsible primarily because they're disproportionately responsible for child care in general. More opportunities for even honest mistakes. Poverty (and its related symptoms such as substance abuse) is often a contributor.

I don't have time right the moment to appreciate your other statements in full, homework and such, but I will attempt to get a better look later on.


Best to trust Merck then. Clearly, Merck's only concern is to bring up all those poor young victims of anti-vaccine negligence right! Aldous Huxley commends your bravery.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:18 am

stickdog - You don't need a vaccine to prevent scurvy. You just need access to a healthy diet and in particular vitamin c. It has nothing to do with an immune system response. You can actually identify the point that people figured this out on that graph.

But if you compare the graphs the Measles mortality rate dropped to zero and stayed there, the scurvey one was briefly at zero but didn't stay there. That is because when a vaccine regime works properly it doesn't need an ongoing maintenance program that is as stringent as an anti scurvy one. Vaccines may work forever or for periods of up to a decade. Vitamin C must be maintained regularly.

A major attraction of vaccines in public health is that they seem to give big "bang for the buck". Small investments in time and money, easy to organise when a dose can be given to schoolkids who are set up to herd/manage. The results are usually observable and easy to point to if you are writing a cost benefit analysis.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:53 am

Joe Hillshoist » 15 Dec 2016 05:18 wrote:stickdog - You don't need a vaccine to prevent scurvy. You just need access to a healthy diet and in particular vitamin c. It has nothing to do with an immune system response. You can actually identify the point that people figured this out on that graph.

But if you compare the graphs the Measles mortality rate dropped to zero and stayed there, the scurvey one was briefly at zero but didn't stay there. That is because when a vaccine regime works properly it doesn't need an ongoing maintenance program that is as stringent as an anti scurvy one. Vaccines may work forever or for periods of up to a decade. Vitamin C must be maintained regularly.

A major attraction of vaccines in public health is that they seem to give big "bang for the buck". Small investments in time and money, easy to organise when a dose can be given to schoolkids who are set up to herd/manage. The results are usually observable and easy to point to if you are writing a cost benefit analysis.


When their benefits clearly exceed the costs & risks, vaccines are good preventative treatments.

Do you think that is the case for the basically useless annual flu vaccine? Do you think that is the case for a $500 regimen of Gardasil?

My point is that vaccines are not infallible sacrosanct entities. Like all medical treatments, their costs and benefits should be analyzed on a case by case basis. Informed consent should not be revoked. And vaccine manufacturers should not be granted blanket immunity from lawsuits.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby DrEvil » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:34 pm

stickdog99 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:56 am wrote:
DrEvil » 12 Sep 2016 21:43 wrote:
And just out of morbid curiosity: what do you guys propose as an alternative to vaccines?


Anyone who wants vaccines can have them. Just don't take away the basic human rights and citizen privileges of those who do not.choose to vaccinate themselves and/or their children.

As for alternatives to vaccines, I would suggest universal healthcare coverage. good nutrition including a wide range of colors of organic fruits and vegetables, healthy lifestyles, exercise, sunlight in moderation, and healing and immune system boosting plants and herbs.


I agree that all the things you list as alternatives are good things, but not as alternatives for vaccines.
Those things at best decrease your chances of getting a disease, but they're in no way a guarantee, and the fact of the matter is that a whole lot of people don't do those things (unless you want to make them mandatory :) ).

As for people choosing not to vaccinate themselves and their kids: In an ideal world yes, but we don't live there. The reason various places started with a mandatory regimen is that too many people choose not to vaccinate which in turn increases the chance of outbreaks, as seen in Disney World for instance.

To gain herd immunity and remove the risk of major outbreaks you need a certain number of people vaccinated, simple as that. If they won't do it voluntarily then they'll have to do it involuntarily (I'm thinking of the standard package of infectious childhood diseases here, mumps, measles etc., not gardasil which I don't have a problem with making voluntary). I see it the same way as having a drivers license not being voluntary if you want to drive a car. It's there to protect other people from you. It's not perfect, but it increases the odds of you or other people not dying horribly.

The risk of something bad happening with vaccines is tiny compared to the risks without them, plus, as I've repeated endlessly, there are several people who for various reasons can't get vaccinated because their immune system is compromised (like cancer patients). By not vaccinating you're endangering those people's lives, which tbh I think is an extremely selfish thing to do.
I wouldn't have a problem with not vaccinating if all it did was affect you and no one else, but that's not how it works. It's other people who suffer when you send your germ bomb offspring to school.

backtoiam wrote:
What is going on here? I am talking to the guy that a while back indicated that people that believe food can cure medicine are crazy, quacks, stupid, or which ever one of your words you used. I don't remember exactly. I believe I sited scurvy and vitamin c as an example for you and you never replied back to that I don't think.

And now you are telling me your doctor might prescribe fruit or a trip to the gym? What gives here? If you live in a place where food and nutrition are recognized as medicine and can cure disease why were you being derogatory against people that believe food and nutrition can cure disease? What gives? Something strange about that, real strange.


Yes, something strange: backtoiam's reading comprehension, as usual. I never said fruit and a trip to the gym can cure disease, but it can help if you just have lousy health (or scurvy).
Obviously the doctor isn't going to prescribe fruit for cancer because that would be fucking stupid (unless you live on backtoiam's planet).
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby BrandonD » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:18 pm

Vaccines will not be completely trustworthy until another social system, based in the public good, replaces capitalism, which is based entirely in self-interest.

Whomever thinks a social system based in self-interest and a public institution based in altruism can coexist without one completely swallowing the other is living in a fantasy world, IMO.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby DrEvil » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:44 pm

BrandonD » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:18 pm wrote:Vaccines will not be completely trustworthy until another social system, based in the public good, replaces capitalism, which is based entirely in self-interest.

Whomever thinks a social system based in self-interest and a public institution based in altruism can coexist without one completely swallowing the other is living in a fantasy world, IMO.


Weird, that's pretty much how things work where I live, a free market welfare state. Seems to be working too. The neo-liberals would dearly love to tear it all down of course, but so far they haven't managed to. Fingers crossed.

Anyway - vaccines will never be 100% trustworthy, and they don't have to, they just have to do less damage than the alternative. They're like seat belts: seat belts kill people, but no seat belts kill a whole lot more.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby BrandonD » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:27 pm

DrEvil » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:44 pm wrote:Weird, that's pretty much how things work where I live, a free market welfare state. Seems to be working too. The neo-liberals would dearly love to tear it all down of course, but so far they haven't managed to. Fingers crossed.

Anyway - vaccines will never be 100% trustworthy, and they don't have to, they just have to do less damage than the alternative. They're like seat belts: seat belts kill people, but no seat belts kill a whole lot more.


Agreed. The problem is that in some cases, certain vaccines do in fact cause more damage than the alternative. Is this surprising, when there is the constant pressure of producing a product at the cheapest possible cost, as well as regulatory commissions composed of ex-employees of the very companies they are regulating?

Right now, because of financial greed and lack of proper regulations, there exist vaccines that cause as much harm as they are presumed to cure. But I really feel that, in a hypothetical future when we live under a different social organization that truly values altruism and higher ideals, the quality of everything of value that humanity can produce will improve dramatically and exponentially. That includes vaccines. There will no longer be cost-cutting and shoddy back-door regulations, only the best that we can possibly provide.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby DrEvil » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:12 pm

^^I fully agree that new vaccines need thorough testing and that the profit motive (as always) skews things in a cost-cutting direction. Insane fines and criminal liability for the top people is the only thing I can think of that would discourage that.
I'm not sure however how that can be done with the flu vaccine as it's a seasonal thing with a different virus every season. It takes time to make and test but it has a deadline every year. Hopefully better testing procedures are being developed.

I also agree that immunity from prosecution for the producers is a load of crap. I can understand the reasoning when it comes to mandatory vaccines, but there should be ways to smack them hard at any sign of impropriety. I don't think they should be held accountable for known side effects though, as long as those side effects conform to the information given up front.
If the vaccine is mandatory the government should have a mechanism for awarding damages, since it's them mandating it.

My main issue is with the hysterical "all vaccines are evil" crowd who are being very loud and destructive at the moment (see: Jenny McCarthy and anyone who approvingly cites Andrew Wakefield).
They're peddling dangerous horseshit.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:13 am

Vaccines are hit or miss on a case by case basis as any other modern drug or medical treatment is.

The fact that those who claim vaccines are monolithically detrimental in all cases are wrong does not make vaccines monolithically good in all cases, just as the fact that creationists are wrong does not make the current reigning neo-darwinist paradigm unquestionably accurate.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Blue » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:49 am

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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:58 pm

stickdog99 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:13 am wrote:The fact that those who claim vaccines are monolithically detrimental in all cases are wrong does not make vaccines monolithically good in all cases, just as the fact that creationists are wrong does not make the current reigning neo-darwinist paradigm unquestionably accurate.


I have been loving your posts in this thread, keep it up. But they're not wrong. The detriments are different in all cases, so perhaps not 'monolithically' detrimental in the 1+1=2 manner of vaccines = autism, but they are absolutely detrimental to everyone who receives them.
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