Vaccine - Autism link

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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby DrEvil » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:13 pm

Stickdog: What part of "I don't mind them replacing it" didn't you understand?
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:55 pm

DrEvil » 16 Mar 2019 19:13 wrote:Stickdog: What part of "I don't mind them replacing it" didn't you understand?


Sorry, it is hard to keep up with your ever moving goalposts of extreme ignorance.

Dentists could make a small fortune through some light fear-mongering if they thought they were dangerous and convinced everyone to have them replaced with more expensive alternatives, but they haven't. I guess they're the one subset of big pharma who aren't greedy, amoral fuckers.


Dentists could face liability if they admitted that they knew or should have known the obvious danger of filling their patients' heads with a severely neurotoxic heavy metal.

That said, if they come up with an alternative that's as cheap and durable then by all means, go for that instead and phase out mercury.


So it is perfectly awesome to keep filling the heads of little children with a substance that is so neurotoxic that it threatens the entire ecosystem of the Earth's oceans as long as said substance is cheaper and more durable than far less toxic alternatives? Right?

I mean, why worry about lead, asbestos, radon, or coal when there are no alternatives that are both as cheap and as durable? We should fill our homes and yards with ground up used tires, considering their cheap and durable cushioning properties! And why not build our homes of depleted uranium? You can't get any cheaper or more durable than that!

Yeah, but that's more a reaction to the "alternative healthcare" market segment than to amalgam being proven hazardous. People want holistic dentistry so someone is selling it.


Yeah, lead, arsenic, and mercury have never been "proven" to be harmful. Claiming otherwise would cast doubt on Skeptical Raptor and his lifetime of service to giant biochemical and agrichemical corporations vilifying any scientist who dare question the safety of any mass produced substance!
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby liminalOyster » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:21 pm

Just a sidenote that posting Skeptical Raptor -- because he's really invested in this particular battle, etc -- is no more indicative of him being considered a "hero" than anyone else used as a reference. And, frankly it gets old
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:52 pm

liminalOyster » 16 Mar 2019 23:21 wrote:Just a sidenote that posting Skeptical Raptor -- because he's really invested in this particular battle, etc -- is no more indicative of him being considered a "hero" than anyone else used as a reference. And, frankly it gets old


It does get old.

Week 1: Scientific paper threatening corporate profits of any large agrichemical or biochemical corporation is published.

Week 2: Some woo site on Skeptical Raptor's watch list highlights said study.

Week 3: Skeptical Raptor dutifully vilifies the scientists who produced the paper both personally and professionally regardless of their pedigree or the true merits of their findings.

Week 4: Every person who expresses any concern about the findings of the original paper is directed to Skeptical Raptor's attack piece in order to protect corporate profits. Nothing to see here. Ever. Just another quack scientist. All chemicals sold by huge corporations are always good chemicals.

And on and on and on and on and on. But go ahead and keep "crowdfunding" your favorite "reference" to authority. Nobody with the possible exception of Orac is more profligate in his guardianship of our otherwise defenseless corporate overlords against the nattering nabobs of non-industry funded science.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby DrEvil » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:07 pm

stickdog99 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:55 pm wrote:
DrEvil » 16 Mar 2019 19:13 wrote:Stickdog: What part of "I don't mind them replacing it" didn't you understand?


Sorry, it is hard to keep up with your ever moving goalposts of extreme ignorance.

Dentists could make a small fortune through some light fear-mongering if they thought they were dangerous and convinced everyone to have them replaced with more expensive alternatives, but they haven't. I guess they're the one subset of big pharma who aren't greedy, amoral fuckers.


Dentists could face liability if they admitted that they knew or should have known the obvious danger of filling their patients' heads with a severely neurotoxic heavy metal.

That said, if they come up with an alternative that's as cheap and durable then by all means, go for that instead and phase out mercury.


So it is perfectly awesome to keep filling the heads of little children with a substance that is so neurotoxic that it threatens the entire ecosystem of the Earth's oceans as long as said substance is cheaper and more durable than far less toxic alternatives? Right?

I mean, why worry about lead, asbestos, radon, or coal when there are no alternatives that are both as cheap and as durable? We should fill our homes and yards with ground up used tires, considering their cheap and durable cushioning properties! And why not build our homes of depleted uranium? You can't get any cheaper or more durable than that!

Yeah, but that's more a reaction to the "alternative healthcare" market segment than to amalgam being proven hazardous. People want holistic dentistry so someone is selling it.


Yeah, lead, arsenic, and mercury have never been "proven" to be harmful. Claiming otherwise would cast doubt on Skeptical Raptor and his lifetime of service to giant biochemical and agrichemical corporations vilifying any scientist who dare question the safety of any mass produced substance!


Oh no! Not mass produced substances!

We've been using amalgam fillings for two hundred years (1300 if you count the earliest uses in China. I guess that makes it traditional Chinese medicine) without any major problems. Now we have better alternatives and we're switching to them. Good. Everybody wins. What is your problem? Also, note that I never said mercury isn't toxic.

Getting back on topic, I'm still waiting on you to point out where Skepticalraptor was wrong about Corvelva. Personally I've found that throwing in the occasional argument with all the insults tends to help your case.


Good job on bringing up a shit-ton of completely unrelated and very toxic shit and trying to insinuate it into my argument btw., because obviously I think that children's toys should be made from uranium (they glow in the dark!) and we should all wear asbestos underwear and gargle with liquid mercury.
Same tactic Cheney used when he kept mentioning 9/11 and Saddam Hussein together to create the impression that they were related.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby DrEvil » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:14 pm

liminalOyster » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:21 am wrote:Just a sidenote that posting Skeptical Raptor -- because he's really invested in this particular battle, etc -- is no more indicative of him being considered a "hero" than anyone else used as a reference. And, frankly it gets old


Thank you. I wouldn't mind if he toned down his rhetoric and focused more on the issue at hand, but seeing it from his point of view, having to debunk the same things over and over also gets old, so I completely understand him getting frustrated.

And stickdog, he's not my hero, he's just someone I trust more than the people you trust on the subject, and he's very active on the topic so he's an easy go-to source. Simple as that.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:16 pm

DrEvil » 17 Mar 2019 17:07 wrote:Good job on bringing up a shit-ton of completely unrelated and very toxic shit and trying to insinuate it into my argument btw., because obviously I think that children's toys should be made from uranium (they glow in the dark!) and we should all wear asbestos underwear and gargle with liquid mercury.
Same tactic Cheney used when he kept mentioning 9/11 and Saddam Hussein together to create the impression that they were related.


How can you not see that defending filling little kid's mouths up with unnecessary mercury amalgam and injecting completely unnecessary mercury into little kid's veins every time you force them to line up for typically useless annual flu vaccines is exactly equivalent to thinking that children's toys should be made from depleted uranium and that we should all wear asbestos underwear and gargle with liquid mercury?
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:54 pm

DrEvil » 17 Mar 2019 17:14 wrote:
liminalOyster » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:21 am wrote:Just a sidenote that posting Skeptical Raptor -- because he's really invested in this particular battle, etc -- is no more indicative of him being considered a "hero" than anyone else used as a reference. And, frankly it gets old


Thank you. I wouldn't mind if he toned down his rhetoric and focused more on the issue at hand, but seeing it from his point of view, having to debunk the same things over and over also gets old, so I completely understand him getting frustrated.

And stickdog, he's not my hero, he's just someone I trust more than the people you trust on the subject, and he's very active on the topic so he's an easy go-to source. Simple as that.


How can you not see that Skeptical Raptor's constant "debunking" of the "supposed" dangers of proven neurotoxins such as mercury and aluminum betrays his very active agenda of defending all huge pharmaceutical and agribusiness corporations against any scientific questioning of the safety of all of their products in every case?

Has Skeptical Raptor ever turned his "skeptical" eye on a single industry funded experiment that produced results that were favorable to the industries he so clearly and indefatiguably shills for? His singular purpose in life is to attack any scientific result that threatens the profits of any giant pharmaceutical and/or agribusiness corporation. These corporations fund more than half the articles published in our major scientific journals, especially our most prestigious medical journals. These corporations paid dearly for the "scientific consensus" that "injected mercury is far less harmful than eating a tuna sandwich" that Skeptical Raptor eagerly regurgitates each and every time he "debunks" any scientific experiment whose results suggest otherwise by personally vilifying any scientists who dare threaten corporate profits.

If I had his "crowdfunding" I could produce the exact same sort of hatchet jobs on the industry scientists who take the money of pharmaceutical and agribusiness corporations with the tacit understanding that they must publish experimental results that protect their funders' investments. These industry scientists routinely perform safety experiments that are internally invalid by design in order to guarantee that the potential risks of the products they are testing are not accurately measured. Never once has Skeptical Raptor attacked a single industry-favorable scientist for producing industry-favorable scientific results, no mater how flawed these experiments were.

When you say that you trust Skeptical Raptor, what you are saying is that you trust the public relations department of huge pharmaceutical and agribusiness corporations because that is exactly what he is.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby DrEvil » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:36 am

stickdog99 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:16 pm wrote:
DrEvil » 17 Mar 2019 17:07 wrote:Good job on bringing up a shit-ton of completely unrelated and very toxic shit and trying to insinuate it into my argument btw., because obviously I think that children's toys should be made from uranium (they glow in the dark!) and we should all wear asbestos underwear and gargle with liquid mercury.
Same tactic Cheney used when he kept mentioning 9/11 and Saddam Hussein together to create the impression that they were related.


How can you not see that defending filling little kid's mouths up with unnecessary mercury amalgam and injecting completely unnecessary mercury into little kid's veins every time you force them to line up for typically useless annual flu vaccines is exactly equivalent to thinking that children's toys should be made from depleted uranium and that we should all wear asbestos underwear and gargle with liquid mercury?


Again, what part of "I think it's good that they're switching" didn't you understand?

I'm sorry this doesn't upset me as much as it does you. Also, no one forces children to get flu shots.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby DrEvil » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:54 am

stickdog99 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:54 pm wrote:
DrEvil » 17 Mar 2019 17:14 wrote:
liminalOyster » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:21 am wrote:Just a sidenote that posting Skeptical Raptor -- because he's really invested in this particular battle, etc -- is no more indicative of him being considered a "hero" than anyone else used as a reference. And, frankly it gets old


Thank you. I wouldn't mind if he toned down his rhetoric and focused more on the issue at hand, but seeing it from his point of view, having to debunk the same things over and over also gets old, so I completely understand him getting frustrated.

And stickdog, he's not my hero, he's just someone I trust more than the people you trust on the subject, and he's very active on the topic so he's an easy go-to source. Simple as that.


How can you not see that Skeptical Raptor's constant "debunking" of the "supposed" dangers of proven neurotoxins such as mercury and aluminum betrays his very active agenda of defending all huge pharmaceutical and agribusiness corporations against any scientific questioning of the safety of all of their products in every case?

Has Skeptical Raptor ever turned his "skeptical" eye on a single industry funded experiment that produced results that were favorable to the industries he so clearly and indefatiguably shills for? His singular purpose in life is to attack any scientific result that threatens the profits of any giant pharmaceutical and/or agribusiness corporation. These corporations fund more than half the articles published in our major scientific journals, especially our most prestigious medical journals. These corporations paid dearly for the "scientific consensus" that "injected mercury is far less harmful than eating a tuna sandwich" that Skeptical Raptor eagerly regurgitates each and every time he "debunks" any scientific experiment whose results suggest otherwise by personally vilifying any scientists who dare threaten corporate profits.

If I had his "crowdfunding" I could produce the exact same sort of hatchet jobs on the industry scientists who take the money of pharmaceutical and agribusiness corporations with the tacit understanding that they must publish experimental results that protect their funders' investments. These industry scientists routinely perform safety experiments that are internally invalid by design in order to guarantee that the potential risks of the products they are testing are not accurately measured. Never once has Skeptical Raptor attacked a single industry-favorable scientist for producing industry-favorable scientific results, no mater how flawed these experiments were.

When you say that you trust Skeptical Raptor, what you are saying is that you trust the public relations department of huge pharmaceutical and agribusiness corporations because that is exactly what he is.


But you're perfectly happy with the Corvelva study? The one with anonymous authors, no peer review and published on their own website?

Skepticalraptor is pretty narrowly focused on debunking anti-vaccine stuff like the Corvelva study. Just because big pharma is a shitty industry doesn't mean the opposite of what they say is automatically the truth. There's a mountain of evidence supporting vaccines and fuck all supporting your position (not counting sloppy and biased shit like the Corvelva study), so unless you think every single study supporting the safety of vaccines is doctored/paid for you have a pretty slim case.
Sometimes the best way to do business is to sell products that work. Shocking concept, I know.

You still haven't told me what Skepticalraptor got wrong in his criticism of Corvelva.


One more complaint (not aimed at you, just anti-vaxxers in general): if it wasn't so depressing it would be hilarious how anti-vaxxers scream about big pharma and the government pushing a false narrative for profit/depopulation/whatever, right up to the point where they publish something the anti-vaxxers agree with, then it's trumpeted around like the word of God. Look everyone! The government is saying it so it has to be true! The mental gymnastics involved are pretty impressive. Everything that supports their narrative, regardless of its source, is considered gospel, everything else is part of the conspiracy.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:36 pm

I am going to try something different this post because this conversation has been going nowhere for a few pages.

If I can admit that a lot of anti-vaccination "research" is flawed, can you admit that Skeptical Raptor has never met a mass produced chemical that he would not defend to the death and thus needs to be considered the exact equivalent of a corporate public relations flack?

It's truly hard for me to discuss the subject of vaccination because the vast majority of people, even those who are intelligent enough to know that corporate capitalism is not wholly benign, have somehow come to believe that all vaccines ever invented to date and all vaccines yet to be tested in the future are the Holy of Holies of modern medicine.

I instead simply believe that all mandated or recommended vaccines should be tested for safety and efficacy like other drugs and medical interventions. And what to me is a patently logical stance somehow puts me directly in the crosshairs of the faith-based fervor of vaccination true believers who constitute the majority of the supposedly scientifically informed population and effectively 100% of our public health policy makers.

Vaccines are the only medical interventions that are routinely administered to currently perfectly healthy people. In particular, vaccines are the only pharmacologically active substances that governments mandate must be injected in currently healthy people, even in lieu of personal or custodial consent. As such, vaccines and entire vaccination schedules must be subject to the most rigorous safety standards of all medicines, and vaccine manufacturers must be held liable when the vaccines they manufacture injure people.

But because all vaccination is always sacrosanct to vaccination true believers, the herd of vaccine manufactures must be protected against scientific inquiry and legal liability at all costs to the point that an obvious PR flack like Skeptical Raptor becomes a huge hero (even to otherwise intelligent, scientifically-minded people to whom his 100% pro-corporate allegiance should be perfectly transparent) because he reliably feeds their confirmation bias that all scientific data that have ever questioned or will ever question the safety or efficacy of any specific vaccine must have been produced by the scientific equivalent of cartoon villains intent on destroying the hard-earned immunity of the herd.

The fact that Skeptical Raptor has never once questioned the safety or efficacy of any product produced by a huge pharmaceutical or agribusiness corporation does nothing to affect his "trustworthiness." The fact that Skeptical Raptor routinely defends indefensible substances, such as fluoride in our drinking water, everything ever manufactured by Monsanto, and 100% unnecessary heavy metals in vaccines and dental fillings, does nothing to affect his "trustworthiness." Since he can always be counted on to confirm your faith-based bias toward the infallibility of all vaccines, his "trustworthiness" is unassailable, and the "strong language" he uses to vilify each and every scientist who dares to question any mass produced biochemical or agrichemical, regardless of pedigree or scientific merit, is laudable (or at least wholly understandable due to his incessant previous "debunking" of similar previous industry-unfriendly scientific data).

All I want is scientifically valid safety and efficacy studies of each and every individual vaccine that at least attempt to measure each specific vaccine's overall cost and risk versus benefit. That means that old vaccines and/or aluminum adjuvants should not be used as "placebo controls" in safety tests of new vaccines. That means that safety tests must include sufficient populations and longitudinal periods to at least have the potential of quantifying the true percentage of occasional adverse effects of these vaccines, so that the damage of such injuries can be objectively weighed against the prophylactic value of each individual vaccine. That means that vaccine manufacturers need to be held liable for the vaccination injuries their products cause, just as all other drug manufacturers are. Finally, individual vaccines should never be mandated on unwilling experimental subjects until scientific data (rather than religious faith in their inherent infallibility) demonstrate that their overall benefit to the population these vaccines are coercively administered to far exceeds their risks and costs.

The same logic, of course, should apply to chemicals added to (or fracked into) our drinking water. The fact that no attempts have ever been made to do any of this should make any scientifically-minded person pause. And the fact that the people who incessantly insist on vilifying any scientist who publishes data suggesting that these questions have not yet been fully answered by rigorous experimentation are the same people who relentlessly promote the harmlessness of proven neurotoxins such as mercury, fluoride, and aluminum should force any scientifically-minded person to question their trustworthiness.

What we need is more objective and unassailable scientific data, not a (google-search and "crowdfunding" skewed) public relations battle between industry-funded scientists and the scientifically criminalized and woefully underfunded scientists who dare question the consensus of industry-funded scientists. I am fully willing to believe that the overall benefit of many vaccines exceeds their overall cost and harm. But aluminum and mercury are not somehow rendered perfectly harmless when they are included in vaccination formulations. Those who dedicate their lives to vilifying the few independent scientists with the temerity to attempt to quantify the neurotoxic effects of these metals should be considered neither trustworthy nor heroic because their completely transparent goal and indeed their very role is to allow manufacturers to continue to blissfully ignore any potential harmful effects of the products they mass produce.

But of course, capitalism is nothing more than conspiracy theory. Right, Dr. Evil? Or is it just that vaccines are somehow exempt from the dictates of capitalism that apply to all other manufactured products and to suggest otherwise is necessarily conspiracy theory?
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby liminalOyster » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:37 pm

stickdog99 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:36 pm wrote:I am going to try something different this post because this conversation has been going nowhere for a few pages.


Not directed at me, but I appreciate this.

If I can admit that a lot of anti-vaccination "research" is flawed, can you admit that Skeptical Raptor has never met a mass produced chemical that he would not defend to the death and thus needs to be considered the exact equivalent of a corporate public relations flack?


I can definitely acknowledge that SR has an agenda and a project and that I would almost surely come to alot of blows with him about health, the body, the environment, capitalism, etc. But your language for him is way over the top hyperbole and it's hardly a fair trade for you just acknowledging that some AV research is flawed. Like trading my sportscar for a half-eaten sandwich.

It's truly hard for me to discuss the subject of vaccination because the vast majority of people, even those who are intelligent enough to know that corporate capitalism is not wholly benign, have somehow come to believe that all vaccines ever invented to date and all vaccines yet to tested in the future are the Holy of Holies of modern medicine.


Me too, actually. But it's even harder to discuss with those who would then universalize that vaccines are "bad." What has happened with vaccine talk is petrifying. There's been a deep Pavlovian reprogramming of the whole society that vaccines are "good" and that defending them is an act of bravery, intellect, morality, etc. The clearest analogue would be "pills". It would be asinine to say "pills are good" because we'd recognize all the innate particularity which made the statement meaningless. That said, in general, vaccines have done some extraordinary good for this world. Plus, they represent a really kind of amazing human medical breakthrough.

I instead simply believe that all mandated or recommended vaccines should be tested for safety and efficacy like other drugs and medical interventions. And what to me is a patently logical stance somehow puts me directly in the crosshairs of the faith-based fervor of vaccination true believers who constitute the majority of the supposedly scientifically informed population and effectively 100% of our public health policy makers.


I believe that too. I would, ironically, go further than you on this. I would continue to side with European public health precuationary principle champions and say - because there is no effective (or ethical) way to design studies around vaccine load/interaction, vaccines should be seen as possessing an innate degree of risk and each should be subject to incredible scrutiny.

Vaccines are the only medical interventions that are routinely administered to currently perfectly healthy people. In particular, vaccines are the only pharmacologically active substances that governments mandate must be injected in currently healthy people, even in lieu of personal or custodial consent. As such, vaccines and entire vaccination schedules must be subject to the most rigorous safety standards of all medicines, and vaccine manufacturers must be held liable when the vaccines they manufacture injure people.


Well, they're not pharmacologically active. But I largely agree with all this. Indeed, I heard a story this week about some "brave" teenagers petitioning for their "right" to seek vaccinations as minors. Which was kind of astounding because it's so rare that teenagers get hip to the legality of the body as property, etc. And yet they weren't asking for drugs (man), or sexual freedoms or similar, but to essentially get that much more quickly to the right to autonomy viz some bizarre acquiescence to the state. Weird shit.

But because all vaccination is always sacrosanct to vaccination true believers, the herd of vaccine manufactures must be protected against scientific inquiry and legal liability at all costs to the point that an obvious PR flack like Skeptical Raptor becomes a huge hero, even to otherwise scientifically-minded people to whom his 100% pro-corporate allegiance should be perfectly transparent, because he reliably feeds their confirmation bias that all scientific data that ever has questioned or will question the safety or efficacy of any specific vaccine is produced by the scientific equivalent of cartoon villains intent on destroying the hard-earned immunity of the herd.


But no. This is conflating the much more common view - that vaccines are probably pretty useful even though all things in a capitalist society (including science) are corrupt - with a kind of strawman over the top position.

The fact that Skeptical Raptor has never once questioned the safety or efficacy of any product produced by a huge pharmaceutical or agribusiness corporation does nothing to affect his "trustworthiness." The fact that Skeptical Raptor routinely defends indefensible substances such as fluoride in our drinking water, everything ever manufactured by Monsanto, and 100% unnecessary heavy metals in vaccines and dental fillings, does nothing to affect his "trustworthiness." Since he can always be counted on to confirm your faith-based bias toward all vaccines, his "trustworthiness" is unassailable, and the "strong language" he uses to vilify each and every scientist who dares to question any mass produced biochemical or agrichemical, regardless of pedigree or scientific merit, is laudable (or at least wholly understandable due to his incessant previous "debunking" of similar previous industry-unfriendly scientific data).


I would ask you to consider that some of the biggest Vax defenders like him are the way they are because they become the mirror image of their opposition. I'm sure he's a prat with whom I would disagree about much. I can still mildly sympathize because he is trying to offset some truly asinine claims, despite the fact that my position on Vax is not nearly as different than yours as you seem to think.

All I want is scientifically valid safety and efficacy studies of each and every individual vaccine that actually at least attempt to measure the overall cost and risk versus benefit of each. That means that old vaccines and/or aluminum adjuvants should not be used as "placebo controls" in safety tests of new vaccines. That means that safety tests must include sufficient populations and longitudinal periods to actually at least have the potential of quantifying their true percentage of occasional adverse effects. That means that vaccine manufacturers need to be held liable for the vaccination injuries their products cause, just as all other drug manufacturers are held liable. Finally, individual vaccines should never be mandated on unwilling experimental subjects until scientific data (rather than religious faith in their inherent infallibility) demonstrates that their overall benefit to the population they are forcibly administered to far exceeds their risks and costs.


No doubt on most of this. So long as it is acknowledged that 1) there are pressures which sometimes demand different ethical protocol (ie Ebola vaccine volunteers in 2015 Liberia) 2) some questions about vax safety are immune to scientific research design, or close. But, again ironically, I'd go much further on this last point and say - individual vaccines should never be mandated. The state should never, ever have the right to demand this.

The same logic, of course, should apply to chemicals added (or fracked into) our drinking water. The fact that no attempts have ever been made to do any of this should make any scientifically-minded person pause. And the fact that the people who incessantly insist on vilifying any scientist who publishes data suggesting that these questions have not yet been fully answered by rigorous experimentation are the same people who relentlessly promote the harmlessness of proven neurotoxins such as mercury, fluoride, and aluminum should force any scientifically-minded person to question their trustworthiness.


But again that is not true. I know a series of good forward-thinking public health people who are convinced that fluoride is a giant historical mistake and has serious implications. The ones I am thinking of also support vaccination and promote it strongly. Certainly the same goes for heavy metals in general. But why have anti-vaxx sorts, to my eye, failed to take on, for instance, lead (a giant fucking crisis, really) in Detroit, St Louis, New Orleans? Or to point out more often that if Thimerosal is a probem, it's mostly a problem in the developing world?

What we need is more objective and unassailable scientific data, not a (google-search and "crowdfund" skewed) public relations battle between industry-funded scientists and the scientifically criminalized and woefully underfunded scientists who dare question the consensus of industry-funded scientists. I am fully willing to believe that the overall benefit of many vaccines exceeds their overall cost and harm. But aluminum and mercury are not somehow rendered perfectly harmless when they are included in vaccination formulations. Those who dedicate their lives to vilifying the few independent scientists with the temerity to attempt to quantify the neurotoxic effects of these metals should be considered neither trustworthy nor heroic because their completely transparent goal and very role is to allow manufacturers to continue to blissfully ignore any potential harmful effects of the products they mass produce.


I just don't buy the basic distinction you're setting up. I'd ask you to at least consider that for many of the "anti-vaxx" docs, they are way too much convinced of their own truth-teller heroism and both make real errors in their judgment, fail to avoid obvious bias and paint the world and the scientific establishment in fale and nearly Manichean terms.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:59 pm

Well, it seems that our fundamental disagreement on vaccination is primarily a result of my predisposition to give the benefit of the doubt to the have nots rather than the haves in any conflict theory, especially when it comes to the positive feedback of the confirmation bias of establishment consensus.

First, I totally admit that a lot of questionable woo and outright idiocy emanates from the pores of many of the highest profile anti-vaccination crusaders. But if you can cut a PR flack like Skeptical Raptor some slack for his OTT zealotry, surely you can do the same for the poor mothers whose children's autistic regressions were correlated in time with vaccination. Right?

However, Robert Kennedy, Jr. provides an instructive counter-example to Jenny McCarthy. He is an environmental lawyer, and I assume that you find little disagreement with any of his other positions on protecting the environment and public health from corporate negligence. However, as soon as he applies the same principles to the vaccine industry that he applies to all other industries, mass hysteria ensues among the guardians of conventional wisdom. Suddenly, Robert Kennedy, Jr. becomes a crackpot pariah, public health enemy number one, and, of course, the subject of scads of scathing invective from both Skeptical Raptor and Orac. Why?

As you state, the vast majority of even the informed segment of scientists against mass fluoridation and even the doctors who devote their lives to sounding alarms against the evils of prescription drug manufacturers typically carve out a special exemption for vaccine manufacturers. Why? Obviously, this is not because rigorous experimentation has been performed to prove that the benefits of each recommended vaccine far exceeds its risks and costs. As you correctly point out, blind faith in the inherent wonderfulness and "pharmacological inactivity" (I mean, do you truly believe that self-falsifying claim?) of each and every vaccine ever developed or yet to be developed makes such experimentation "unethical".

It is as if all vaccines, even those yet to be developed, are protected in perpetuity from objective scientific scrutiny by some sort of ontological argument: "By definition, all vaccines are medical interventions that which none greater can be imagined. ... "

Since our blind faith in the monolithic good of VACCINATION tells us that the benefits of vaccines must always exceed their costs and risks, it is clearly and inherently unethical ever to deprive any population of any specific untested vaccine, and thus it is also unethical ever to design any scientific experiment with the potential to demonstrate that any specific untested vaccine's risks and costs exceed its benefits. Why? As far as I can tell, this whole ontological argument is based on nothing but a completely circular appeal to the overwhelming "scientific consensus" that until very recently assured us the exact same of fluoridation and circumcision (and currently still tries to assure us that the only safe place for mercury in our entire environment is the "full containment" of children's mouths). Why does this remind of my initial reaction when I discovered my baby teeth in my mother's sewing kit and was informed that the tooth fairy was not real? "But, but, Santa Claus is still real. He must be! Right?"

Please do not think that I imagine all pro-vaccination zealots to be the corporate water carriers that Skeptical Raptor so transparently is. Most scientists and scientifically-minded lay people sincerely believe that the monolith of VACCINATION is indeed the medical equivalent of Santa Claus. While I am not as convinced as you or they are about this "fact", I am more than open to persuasion and I cannot dispute that scientific experiments have been performed on actual herds that demonstrate that certain specific vaccines do indeed confer very beneficial protection against certain deadly viral diseases, at least to animals subject to the perils of human domestication.

However, as always in objective medical science, the devil is in the details. And, as always in objective medical science, even the best intended interventions can often result in overridingly deleterious unintended consequences. Finally, human environmental exposures also change over time such that toxicity loads that were once "acceptably" tolerated may not remain so. We cannot exempt specific vaccines from the barest measures of experimental safety testing because of circular arguments that appeal only to the current consensus of the inherently beneficial monolith of VACCINATION.

Examining a specific vaccine, such as Gardasil, shows the perils of our blind faith in the inherently beneficial monolith of VACCINATION. At a cost of roughly $500 per a three injection regimen, Gardasil is certainly not the most cost effective way to prevent cervical cancer in any population that can afford annual HPV testing.

Image

Hence, Merck's telling marketing slogan, "One Less." Thus we are cajoled by mass media as well as our personal physicians to line up our daughters (and now sons) for these prohibitively profitable jabs on the off-chance that fewer than one in one thousand of them will be protected against a precancerous dysplasia that could have otherwise been discovered during annual testing and subsequently removed in a simple surgical procedure. Almost every published QALY estimate journal article justifying Gardrasil vaccination was funded by Merck, and not a single published QALY estimate has ever included among any of their combined hundreds of QALY model assumptions the medical costs (aka negative QALY) of even a SINGLE adverse event caused by Gardasil! How can such inherently flawed and blindly optimistic QALY models be justified when we all know that vaccines can and do cause significant injuries to a small population of susceptible individuals who do not tolerate their "pharmacological inactivity" as well as the vast majority of us thankfully do?
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby liminalOyster » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:12 pm

This is a well-stated framing of what, despite my general trust in the US vaccine schedule at this time, is so concerning to me:

It is as if all vaccines, even those yet to be developed, are protected in perpetuity from objective scientific scrutiny by some sort of ontological argument.

Vaccines aside, even, this is a very interesting example of peak-post-liberalism and the weird new ontologization of values -- of which the world ain't seen nothing yet.
"It's not rocket surgery." - Elvis
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby conniption » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:02 pm

https://zenodo.org/record/2582600#.XJBEMbhlD2V

March 3, 2019

Rebutting vaccine safety claims made by Dr. Hotez in Nature Pediatric Research

Arumugham, Vinu

Dr. Hotez makes many vaccine safety claims based on epidemiological studies. Strong mechanistic evidence is used to rebut his claims.


_______


From Nuremberg to California: Why Informed Consent Matters in the 21st Century

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNfDneO5RGI
NVICstandup
Published on Nov 6, 2017

vaccine impact

From Nuremberg to California: Why Informed Consent Matters in the 21st Century

by Barbara Loe Fisher
National Vaccine Information Center


Since I was asked to make a presentation about vaccine exemptions in 1997 at the Department of Health and Human Services in Washington, D.C., I have publicly defended the informed consent principle, which was defined as a human right at the Doctors Trial at Nuremberg in 1947. 1

Informed consent means you have the right to be fully informed about the benefits and risks of a medical intervention and the freedom to make a voluntary decision about whether or not to accept those risks without being coerced or punished for the decision you make.

Informed consent applies not just to risks taken by participants in scientific experiments, but also to risks taken by patients under the care of physicians. [2, 3, 4, 5]

Informed Consent Principle Applies to All Medical Risk-Taking

Today, when a person publicly advocates for informed consent protections in vaccine laws, an “anti-vaccine” label is usually immediately applied to shut down any further conversation. [6,7 ]Perhaps because a conversation about ethics opens up a wider conversation about freedom.

The right and responsibility for making a decision about risk taking rightly belongs to the person taking the risk. When you become informed and think rationally about a risk that you or your minor child may take – and then follow your conscience – you own that decision. And when you own it, you can defend it. And once you can defend it, you will be ready to do whatever it takes to fight for your freedom to make it, no matter who tries to prevent you from doing that.

Never Do Anything Against Conscience

Albert Einstein, who risked arrest in Germany in the 1930’s when he spoke out against censorship and persecution of minorities, said, “Never do anything against conscience even if the State demands it.” [8]

There is no liberty more fundamentally a natural, inalienable right than the freedom to think independently and follow our conscience when choosing what we are willing to risk our life or our child’s life for.

Because the journey we take on this earth is defined by the choices we make. If we are not free to make choices, the journey is not our own. The choices we make that involve risk of harm to our physical body, which houses our mind and spirit, those are among the most profound choices we make in this life.

Vaccine Risks Not Being Borne Equally By Everyone in Society

So, vaccination must remain a choice because it is a medical intervention performed on the body of a healthy person that carries a risk of injury or death. [9, 10] And while we are all born equal, with equal rights under the law, we are not born all the same. Each one of us is born with different genes and a unique microbiome influenced by epigenetics that affects how we respond to the environments we live in. [11, 12]

We do not all respond the same way to pharmaceutical products like vaccines, so vaccine risks are not being borne equally by everyone in society.

Why should the lives of those vulnerable to vaccine complications be valued any less than those vulnerable to complications of infections? And why should people not be free to choose to stay healthy in ways that pose far fewer risks?

Vaccines Carry Risks and Do Not Guarantee Protection

The act of vaccination involves the deliberate introduction of killed live attenuated or genetically engineered microbes into the body of a healthy person, along with varying amounts of chemicals, metals, human and animal RNA and DNA and other ingredients [13] that atypically manipulate the immune system to mount an inflammatory response that stimulates artificial immunity. [14]

But there is no guarantee that vaccination will not compromise biological integrity or cause the death of a healthy or vaccine vulnerable person either immediately or in the future. There is also no guarantee that vaccination will protect a person from getting an infection with or without symptoms and transmitting it to others. [15]

Vaccine Science Gaps, Doctors Cannot Predict Who Will React

Reports published by physician committees at the Institute of Medicine confirm that vaccines, like infections, can injure and kill people but that:

> very little is known about how vaccines or microbes act at the cellular and molecular level in the human body; [16, 17, 18] and
> the Institute of Medicine confirms that an unknown number of us have certain genetic, biological and environmental susceptibilities that make us more vulnerable to being harmed by vaccines, but doctors cannot accurately predict who we are; [19, 20] and
> that clinical trials of experimental vaccines are too small to detect serious reactions before they are licensed; 21 22 and
> that the U.S. recommended child vaccine schedule through age six has not been adequately studied to rule out an association with allergies, autoimmunity, learning and behavior disorders, seizures, autism and other brain and immune dysfunction. [23]


Yet, with these large gaps in scientific knowledge, government health officials direct physicians to vaccinate 99.99 percent of children regardless of known or unknown risks. [24, 25]

Government Licensed Vaccines “Unavoidably Unsafe”

Therefore, vaccination is a medical procedure that can be termed experimental each time it is performed on a person. By extension, “no exceptions” mandatory vaccination laws create a de facto uncontrolled, population based scientific experiment that enrolls every child at birth and never ends, sacrificing an unknown number of vaccine vulnerable children.

Further, the US Congress and Supreme Court have declared federally licensed vaccines to be “unavoidably unsafe,” removing civil liability from doctors who give vaccines and drug companies that sell vaccines in what has become a very lucrative multi-billion dollar business in the U.S. [26, 27]

At the same time, the federal vaccine injury compensation program created by Congress in 1986 that was supposed to be a no-fault alternative to a lawsuit – not instead of a lawsuit – has been gutted by federal agencies so that, today, almost no child receives compensation when they are hurt by vaccines. [28]

Now, a global vaccine injury compensation program is being created to shield multinational corporations from liability for injuries caused by the hundreds of new genetically engineered vaccines governments will mandate in the future. [29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34]

All this, while medical trade groups affiliated with industry and government join forces to lobby for removal of flexible medical, conscientious and religious belief exemptions from state health laws, [35] as was done in California in 2015, [36] so that those who refuse government endorsed vaccines for themselves or their minor children can be denied an education, employment, health care and other civil rights.

Utilitarianism Should Not Be Foundation of Public Health Law

In 1996, when I was in the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. attending a conference on the role of physicians and scientists implementing public health policy during the Third Reich, I looked up and saw an inscription that took my breath away. It said, “the first to perish were the children…from these a new dawn might have risen.”

This commentary, which I originally presented in March 2017 at the inaugural meeting of Physicians for Informed Consent in California, [37] is dedicated to mothers and fathers, whose children died or became brain injured when the risks of vaccination turned out to be 100 percent.

I am arguing that the consequentialist theory of utilitarianism [38, 39, 40] is a pseudo-ethic that must be rejected as the moral foundation of public health policy and law so it can be replaced with a compassionate ethic grounded in respect for the human right to autonomy and informed consent to medical risk taking, including vaccine risk taking.

Pediatrician Censored for Reporting Infant Deaths After DPT Shots

I remember the day in the spring of 1982, when I was a young mother with a four year-old son struggling with the effects of a serious DPT vaccine reaction. I had just seen the NBC television documentary DPT: Vaccine Roulette [41] and was networking with parents of DPT vaccine injured children in the Washington, D.C. area when I decided to attend a press conference at the American Academy of Neurology to hear a young pediatric neurologist talk about his study in which two thirds of the babies, whose deaths were classified sudden infant death syndrome, had died within three weeks of a DPT shot.

This pediatrician was concerned that DPT vaccine may be a major unrecognized cause of early childhood death, including SIDS, and he suggested that more research be done. As soon as he finished, his physician colleagues launched a vicious attack on his professional expertise and personal integrity that left him physically trembling in a cold sweat. I had never seen anything like it.

During the break, I was approached by a PhD scientist who, at the time, worked for the National Academy of Sciences. This scientist asked me why I was there and I told him I wanted to know more about DPT vaccine because, when I was taking my baby to be vaccinated, I had no idea that vaccines – which were supposed to keep children healthy – could actually kill them.

He got this quizzical look on his face and said something to the effect that it only happens once in a million kids. And instinctively I said, but if a vaccine kills even one, how can all children be legally required to get it? He looked surprised, uncomfortable, and walked away mumbling something about vaccine benefits far outweigh the risks, and sometimes we have to make sacrifices for the greater good.

And I thought to myself, but the benefits didn’t outweigh the risks for my child or for the babies who died after DPT shots in the study that young doctor tried to talk about before he was figuratively lynched for suggesting that DPT vaccine benefits might not outweigh the risks.

And why was my child’s health sacrificed without my knowledge or permission, and what is “the good” that is made greater by child sacrifice, and who defines it as “good”?

Playing DPT Vaccine Roulette with My Son’s Life

When I became a Mom in 1978, my son, Chris, was the light of my life. Happy, healthy and precocious, he was saying words at seven months,

speaking in full sentences by age two and identifying words in the books we read together every day. One doctor told me he was cognitively gifted.

But everything changed in 1980 when, within hours of his fourth DTP shot, I witnessed the eyes of my two and a half year old son roll back in his head and his head fall to his shoulder as if he had fallen asleep sitting up. I carried him, pale and limp, to his bed, where he did not move for hours. I thought to myself, oh, he is tired and just taking a really long nap, or maybe he is coming down with a cold.

And when I finally was able to wake him but he couldn’t sit up or walk or speak coherently, when he had terrible diarrhea and only stayed conscious for a few minutes before falling into 12 more hours of deep sleep, I did not understand that I had witnessed a classic post-DPT vaccine convulsion and “hypotonic/hyporesponsive reaction and brain inflammation. [42, 43, 44, 45]

Chris was not just taking a really long nap, he was unconscious in his bed and could have died that day.

I did not know because my pediatrician had told me nothing about how to recognize a vaccine reaction, including symptoms of encephalitis – brain inflammation that has been a well-documented complication of vaccination for two centuries. [46, 47, 48, 49]

I did not know that the unusual local reaction after his third DPT shot was a warning sign or that our family history of severe allergies and autoimmune disorders could increase vaccine risks. [50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56]

Even though I came from a family of doctors and nurses, had a college degree and had worked at a teaching hospital – like most parents back then I believed that vaccines were 100 percent safe and effective.

And in the following days and weeks, when Chris could no longer concentrate or do what we could do before, when his personality changed and he was constantly sick with ear and respiratory infections, diarrhea, new food allergies and severe weight loss, my family and I could not understand why Chris had regressed physically, mentally and emotionally and become a totally different child. His doctors told us there was no explanation and said I should take him home and love him.

Eighteen months later, when I, and millions of other parents in America, watched the Emmy award winning “DPT Vaccine Roulette,” [57] I called the TV station and asked if I could have copies of the medical literature used to anchor the documentary.

And it was in my living room as I read case history descriptions of DPT vaccine injury and death in the pages of Pediatrics [58, 59, 60] and the British Medical Journal [61, 62, 63] and New England Journal of Medicine [64] that exactly matched the symptoms of brain inflammation I witnessed my son suffer that day, it was then I knew that physicians had been talking in medical journals for more than 50 years about the fact that pertussis vaccine could brain damage children, but no one had informed the mothers dutifully bringing their children for DPT shots legally required to go to school.

As I tried to help my son cope with multiple learning disabilities that included dyslexia, fine and gross motor skill delay, auditory processing and attention deficit, and short term memory delays so severe they confined him to a special ed classroom throughout his public school education, and as I interviewed hundreds of mothers for the book DPT: A Shot in the Dark, I came to know many families whose children had died or were much more severely vaccine injured than my child. [65, 66]

Chris has worked hard to compensate for his learning disabilities and he is a productive member of society today; but many vaccine injured children, tragically, are not. [67]

My son is among the walked wounded in what has become an unprecedented and still unexplained chronic disease and disability epidemic now plaguing millions of children and young adults in America. [68]

It is an epidemic of learning disabilities, ADHD, asthma, seizures, autism, diabetes, depression, and other types of brain and immune dysfunction marked by chronic inflammation in the body that has perfectly coincided with the tripling of the numbers of vaccines given to children – from 23 doses of seven vaccines starting at two months through age six in the early 1980s – to the current 69 doses of 16 vaccines starting on the day of birth with 50 doses given before age six. [69, 70]

Image

In 1982, it was my curiosity about the truth of the matter that pushed me to research the science, policy, law, ethics, history and politics of vaccination and spend two decades participating in public engagement projects at the Institute of Medicine and Department of Health and Human Services, where I served as a consumer member on vaccine advisory committees at the FDA and CDC, [71] a journey that has now spanned half my life.

So, I offer you my perspective from that vantage point.

Philosophy: Love of Wisdom

Here we are in the 21st century, where the electronic communications revolution has created a virtual global public square on the World Wide Web, where more than three billion people are talking to – and sometimes yelling at – each other about ideas, values and beliefs, just like they did in the public squares of ancient Athens and Rome, and in universities, newspapers, and on radio and television since then.

Throughout recorded history, people have disagreed with each other about how to answer big questions, like:

> Where do we come from?
> Are we only physical matter or do we have an immortal soul, a consciousness that survives physical death?
> What is truth and how can we know it?
> What is ethical behavior and how can we define it?


Most of the formal debates about these questions have been described in the history of philosophy, [72] which the ancient Greeks defined as “love of wisdom,” that included study of knowledge; reasoning; nature of being or metaphysics; aesthetics; and ethics.

The philosophy of science emerged as a separate discipline in the 18th and 19h centuries after mathematicians and astronomers mounted a successful challenge to the authority of organized religion.

Science Now Dominates, Affect Cultural Values & Laws

Since then, science has invaded and dominated every other branch of philosophy. As we are reminded every day in so many ways, science and math rule, and scientific evidence determines what is true and what is not.

In fact, those who practice and submit to the authority of science insist that not only must science be used to define all truth, but leaders in science and medicine are authorities who should define “the good,” that is, define moral behavior and what kind of cultural values we should have, and what kind of beliefs we should be allowed to hold and teach our children, and what kind of laws should be passed in order to limit the ability of individuals to make “unscientific” choices that presumably endanger the public health and welfare. [73]

That’s a whole lot of pressure for many physicians, who do not want to be put on a pedestal and required to exercise that kind of authority over the lives of fellow human beings because – first and foremost – it interferes with developing a relationship with patients based on mutual respect, trust and shared decision making.

But, the stark reality is that the scientification of every branch of philosophy has elevated prominent scientists and physicians promoting “consensus science” into positions of authority, whose judgment should never be questioned. Long held cultural values, such as respect for freedom of thought, speech, conscience and religious belief are being called into question, which, in turn, affects court decisions and the making of laws.

No where is this more visible than in public health law using the materialist philosophy of utilitarianism to legally require all Americans to use an increasing number of vaccines without their voluntary informed consent.

So how did we get here? How did science come to dominate how we define what is true and good for the individual and society in the 21st century?

Old Arguments About What Is True and Good

Although conversations about the meaning of life and what is good started before written history and is embedded in tenets of five surviving major religions – Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity – it was the classical Greek philosophers who began recording the debate.

Socrates, Plato and Aristotle believed that we are physical matter animated by a vital spirit, and we can use innate knowledge and reason to perceive what is good.

Epicurus disagreed and said humans are only physical matter and have no spirit or innate knowledge and that seeking pleasure and avoiding pain is the highest good and guide to moral behavior.

For 1500 years following the birth of Christ, the highest good was defined as knowing and loving God in western cultures adopting Judeo-Christian moral values – until the Scientific Revolution when 15th and 16th century scientists Copernicus, Galileo, Newton and Francis Bacon developed methods for determining what is true that put the existence of God on trial, along with the definition of what is good.

Although between the 16th and 19th centuries, Descartes, Locke, Kant, Hegel and other philosophers argued that humans are both physical matter and spirit and can use reason to understand scientific truth, as well as to perceive the natural law that serves as a guide to what is good, the materialist philosophers Hobbes, Hume, Bentham, Comte, Marx and Nietzsche argued that science proves there is no God or human spirit because we are only physical matter, and there are no absolute moral values but, rather, science can be used to define what is true and good.

This included the idea that a mathematical equation can be used to judge whether or not an individual action, government policy or law is moral.

The authors of the U.S. Declaration of Independence agreed with the philosophers who argued that humans have a physical body animated by a soul or spirit, and that we can use reason given to us by God to perceive the natural law, which includes natural rights, that belong to all individuals and limit the authority of government.

The Bill of Rights in the US Constitution contains strong language protecting exercise of natural rights. [74] These have been defined internationally as human rights, including freedom of thought, speech, conscience and religious belief. [75, 76]

Utilitarianism: Mathematics, Vaccination & Public Health Rising

But today, it is not respect for natural rights that guides public health policy in the U.S., it is the philosophy of utilitarianism, created by Jeremy Bentham, a 19th century British attorney and social reformer. [77, 78] Bentham mocked the U.S. Constitution for mentioning God and affirming natural rights protected in the First Amendment.

Like Comte, Marx and Nietzsche who followed him, Bentham did not believe that man has a soul or innate intelligence, so he returned to the hedonistic Epicurean philosophy of maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain to define what is good.

Bentham’s utilitarianism uses a mathematical equation that judges the rightness or wrongness of an action by its consequences. Bentham said that an action is only moral or ethical if it results in the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people. With its emphasis on numbers of people, Bentham created utilitarianism primarily as a guide to state legislative policy, and vaccine cost-benefit analyses are rooted in utilitarianism.

Bentham was a contemporary of British physician Edward Jenner, who took pus from a cowpox lesion and scratched it onto the arm of a young boy in an effort to prevent smallpox. Jenner’s experiment, repeated over and over again in lots of people, created a live human-cow hybrid virus called vaccinia. [79]

The new chemical industry took that vaccinia virus, added some chemicals and bottled it, selling it to doctors and governments. The mass smallpox vaccine campaigns that followed expanded the authority of a new branch of medicine focusing on population-based disease control, called public health. [80]

19th century physicians were enlisted by government to give infants and children smallpox vaccine and were persuaded to look the other way when some of them died or were left permanently disabled after developing raging vaccinia virus infections and inflammation of the brain. Fully embracing the utilitarian rationale, public health officials viewed individual smallpox vaccine casualties as necessary losses to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

Utilitarianism Codified Into US Law: Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905)

At the turn of the 20th century, utilitarianism was fashionable in intellectual and political circles. It was the philosophical argument used by attorneys in 1905 to persuade the U.S. Supreme Court to issue a utilitarian ruling in Jacobson vs. Massachusetts. [81]

Lutheran Pastor Henning Jacobsen and his son had suffered severe reactions to previous smallpox vaccinations and Jacobsen argued that genetic predisposition placed him at high risk for dying or being injured if he was forced to get revaccinated. The court dismissed Jacobsen’s concern for his own health and life.

In a split decision with one dissenting vote, the Court that included Oliver Wendell Holmes, issued an opinion that would affirm the legal right for U.S. state legislatures to assign police powers to public health officials to restrict or eliminate individual liberty in order to “secure the general comfort, health and prosperity of the state.”

The Court maintained that all citizens can be compelled to receive smallpox vaccinations because the happiness and welfare of the majority outweighs the happiness and welfare of a minority. In other words, individual human sacrifice is ethical and legal if it is done for the common good.

Georgetown law professor and mandatory vaccination proponent Lawrence Gusting has described it as the most important Supreme Court opinion in the history of American public health law. [83]

Eugenics: Eradicating the “Unfit” in Buck v. Bell (1927)

In 1927, then Chief Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes used the Jacobson ruling to give the state of Virginia a green light to sterilize Carrie Buck, a 17-year old young single mother who doctors and state social workers had incorrectly judged to be mentally retarded, just like her daughter and mother, they said. [84]

Self-identifying as a Darwinian atheist and utilitarian, Chief Justice Holmes’s admiration for exercise of power is reflected in his legal opinions. [85]

Holmes did not believe in the concept of natural rights and said, “Between two groups of people who want to make inconsistent kinds of worlds, I see no remedy but force.” [86]

He believed scientific knowledge should be used to improve the human race and said, “I can imagine a future in which science shall take control of life, and condemn at once with instant execution what now is left up to nature to destroy.” [87]

And, so, when it came to Carrie Buck, Holmes, the eugenicist, coldly proclaimed–

“The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes.” [88]

In this merciless 1927 Supreme Court decision, just as in the 1905 Jacobson v Massachusetts decision, Holmes achieved his goal of stripping cultural values and ethical principles from U.S. law.

His logic was that if utilitarianism could be used to ensure the common good and protect society from infections through compulsory vaccination laws, then forced sterilization laws could be used to immunize society against becoming infected with bad genes.

Social Darwinism and Eugenics in America Inspired Hitler

Darwin’s theory of natural selection led to Social Darwinism [89] and eugenics that was viewed as a new science by U.S. intellectuals during the 1920s and 1930s. [90]

American biologist Charles Davenport had founded the Eugenics Record Office at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on Long Island in 1910 [91] to improve the human race and soon courses on eugenics were offered at Harvard, Columbia, Cornell, Brown and other universities.

The National Education Association had a Committee on Racial Well-Being to help teachers integrate eugenics content into public school textbooks. [92]

By 1932, California and 28 other states had passed compulsory sterilization laws and the practice of eugenics was endorsed by leading U.S. scientists, medical doctors, lawyers, professors, businessmen, politicians, philanthropists, and social reformers like Margaret Sanger.

The next year, in 1933, Hitler adopted eugenics as a central piece of his plan to protect the common good by eliminating individuals he considered to be a threat to the health, security and economic well being of the State.

By the time eugenics became politically incorrect in the 1940’s, physicians implementing government health policy had performed more than 60,000 involuntary sterilizations on mentally disabled or chronically ill Americans. [93]

Hitler was influenced by Marx and Nietzsche and inspired by U.S. eugenics laws. He blended utilitarianism with social Darwinism and nationalism to create a view of the State as one biological entity or body that must be kept healthy and free from disease and threats from unfit individuals.

Enlisting the assistance of physicians and public health officials, the first minority considered unfit and expendable were severely handicapped children, the chronically sick and mentally ill, the “useless eaters” they were called. And when the reasons for why a person was identified as a threat to the health, economic stability, or security of the State grew longer to include minorities who were too old or too Jewish or too Catholic or too opinionated or simply unwilling to believe what those in control of the State said was true….as the list of those the State branded as persons of interest to be demonized, feared, tracked, isolated and eliminated grew, so did the collective denial of those who had yet to be put on that list.

Doctors’ Crimes Against Humanity: Judgment at Nuremberg

When doctors were charged with crimes against humanity at the Doctor’s Trial at Nuremberg for carrying out horrific scientific experiments on captive children and adults in the concentration camps, including vaccine experiments, they pointed to U.S. eugenics laws and invoked a utilitarian defense, claiming it was moral to sacrifice the health and lives of individuals to advance scientific knowledge that could save the lives of many more. [94, 95]

Out of the Doctors Trial at Nuremberg came the Nuremberg Code, of which Yale law professor and physician Jay Katz said, “if not explicitly then at least implicitly, commanded that the principle of the advancement of science bow to a higher principle: protection of individual inviolability. The rights of individuals to thoroughgoing self-determination and autonomy must come first. “ [96]

The First Principle of the Nuremberg Code is, “The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential.” [97]

The Doctor’s Trial at Nuremberg put a human face on individual victims of immoral government health policies. The Nuremberg Code stands as an uncompromising affirmation of the value of every human life and the natural right to self-determination, a timeless guide to ethical behavior by scientists and physicians.

While post World War II Europe had to process what they had learned from The Doctor’s Trial at Nuremberg and the holocaust, things were very different in America. In our country, prominent members of our society who had promoted and participated in the practice of eugenics were never required to look in the mirror and reflect upon what they had done, or face public disgrace. [98] They just went underground.

Science & Math Rule: History of Philosophy Forgotten

Our perception of what is true and good is very much influenced by the prism through which we are taught to view the world.

In today’s public schools, education is focused on science and math, but the study of philosophy and its’ impact on human history is not valued or taught that often. There is no discussion about the kind of utilitarian thinking that made eugenics acceptable in America.

Few Gen Xers and Millennials, who will steer our nation into the second half of the 21nd century, understand the ramifications of allowing utilitarianism to guide public health policy and law, even as the specter of genetic engineering to change what it means to be human is already underway. [99, 100, 101]

Do they understand the influence of utilitarian philosophers like Dr. Peter Singer, professor of bioethics at Princeton, who says it is ethical to euthanize disabled babies in the first 30 days of life, and it is ethical to euthanize elderly and disabled persons who are not aware they serve no useful purpose in society, because, he says, the life of a severely intellectually disabled person has no greater value than that of a dog or pig? [102]

Dr. Paul Offit and other contemporary utilitarians who develop vaccines, make vaccine policy and promote “no exceptions” mandatory vaccination laws [103] are forcing us to kneel before them at an altar reminiscent of the one that a 19th century August Comte, built for his Religion of Humanity.

We are not allowed to talk about what is true or good in the public square unless we have medical or academic credentials and then – only if we strictly adhere to promoting their consensus science, a code word for censorship that delegitimizes freedom of thought and dissent.

Debate About Forced Vaccination Transcends Vaccination

Today, everybody knows somebody who was healthy, got vaccinated and was never healthy again. But the vaccine science is settled, say the utilitarians refusing to compare the health of vaccinated children to unvaccinated children. Vaccines do not injure and kill, they say, or – if they do – it is so rare, that requiring some children to sacrifice their lives without their parent’s informed consent is ethical in order to enforce mandatory vaccination laws that serve the greater good.

It is for this reason that the debate about vaccination transcends vaccination. It is the tip of the spear in a much larger war that is being waged on cultural values and beliefs in America, which is why I call it The Vaccine Culture War.

Because if the State can tag, track down and force citizens against their will to be injected with biologicals of known and unknown toxicity today, then there will be no limit on which individual freedoms the State can take away in the name of the greater good tomorrow.

Today the battlefield of the 200 year war on microbes is littered with human casualties far too numerous to count while, in a natural fight to survive, the microbes have evolved to evade the vaccines. [104] And the scientists and physicians in leadership positions determined to win that war continue to fire away, stepping around the bodies of vaccine-damaged children lying on the ground.

Do I think that public health officials flying the science flag with a utilitarian star on it wake up everyday and say to themselves, I want to hurt a child today? Of course not. Most doctors and scientists want to help, not harm people.

Do I think they have lost their way, blinded by a utilitarian pseudo-ethic that makes it easy to ignore the bodies lying on the ground so they can allow themselves to believe that human sacrifice is ethical when it serves the greater good? Yes, I do. They have forgotten to ask themselves this question:

When one individual is considered expendable for the good of society, how many more can be considered expendable? Is it 500, 5,000, 50 million – or more? How many is too many to sacrifice for the happiness of the rest, and who gets to decide which ones among us are expendable?

Holocaust survivor Elie Weisel said, “When you take an idea or concept and turn it into an abstraction, that opens the way to take human beings and turn them, also, into abstractions. When people are turned into abstractions, what is left?” [105]

He is right. Abstractions are much easier to write off as coincidences. Abstractions are easier to add up in a column when there is no name or a face put to them. Abstractions do not live or breathe, bleed or convulse, scream or die. Abstractions can be dismissed and buried in files where nobody ever has to look.

Rejecting Utilitarianism & Embracing An Authentic Ethic

After surviving four concentration camps, physician Viktor Frankl called on mankind to reject the materialist view that a person only has value if he useful to society, which makes him a slave to the State. Frankl said:

“The gas chambers of Auschwitz were the ultimate consequence of the theory that man is nothing but the product of heredity and environment—or, as the Nazis liked to say, of ‘Blood and Soil.’” I am absolutely convinced that the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Majdanek were ultimately prepared not in some Ministry or other in Berlin, but rather at the desks and in the lecture halls of nihilistic scientists and philosophers.” [106]

Transcending the horror of what he had witnessed, Dr. Frankl was able to see that, “Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.“ ….. “It is this spiritual freedom – which cannot be taken away – that makes life meaningful and purposeful.

In the 21st century, all of us are called upon to choose whether or not we will embrace what Albert Schweitzer called “a reverence for life.” [107] It requires us to turn away from materialist philosophers like Hobbes, Bentham, Comte, Marx, Nietzsche and Singer, who say that individual life does not matter, that life has no meaning, and that morality can be reduced to a mathematical equation.

Enlightened physicians and scientists with compassion and courage are called upon to take back leadership of their professions from those who have lost their way. Even as those, who have been victims of utilitarian health policies, must continue to witness in the public square.

Only then can we reject utilitarianism as a guide to the practice of medicine so consensus science orthodoxy will give way to real science that yields the truth about vaccination and health.

Only then can we transcend the horror of what has happened to far too many children in the name of the greater good and adopt an authentic ethic, one that values individual autonomy and freedom of thought, speech and conscience – civil liberties that have been an antidote to tyranny in its many forms throughout human history.

Our mission continues. No forced vaccination. Not in America.

Read the full article at NVIC.org.


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