Vaccine - Autism link

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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Searcher08 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:07 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:10 am wrote:And another co-sign for this:

I have not studied the issue at all, part of me wonders, however, if the reaction we are witnessing is way more dangerous than measles....and how much of it is socially engineered.


The thing that worries me is that it is omni-directional and highly contagious -- it can affect anyone arguing anything, and it's really hard to engage with someone operating on this level without operating on their level.

Entrainment is a motherfucker.


Jesus, that hit home.
I had never thought about this "echochamber reactivity" in that way.
My uncomfortable truth is that my argumentation is often analogous to my cousin's Italian husband from New Jersey, who is a sweet, fun, chilled person... except when he drives into New York (or me around sneery skeptics), where he turns into a shouty, middle-finger extending, "where da fuq did ya learn ta drive, bozo?" maniac driver.

Reactivity as an emotional state contagion piped by the web... Hmm... wanting to punch walls when I see Facebook friends post from 'Clickbait' manipulation sites isnt the best response...

I guess there are lessons, in NLP terms, around state-maintenance and generating new and more useful behaviors than fist-pumping rage about cat videos :clown
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby elfismiles » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:57 pm

elfismiles » 04 Feb 2015 17:53 wrote:WOW - the measles meme has infected the Aurora Shootings...

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February 3, 2015 12:50 PM
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stefano » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:20 am

Thanks all. I agree with alwyn - of course vaccines save lives, but I also think the current system of vaccinating everyone against everything is clearly more about profits than public health. (I vaccinate my kids against everything, but the environment where I live is a bit more germy than Orange County.)

One thing though - this supposed 'kill-off' that I often see conspiracy boards go on about and which don't think is a thing at all:

Jerky » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:57 pm wrote:I was reminded of the fact that there is only one thing that The Powers That Be all agree on, to a man, and that is that there are far too many of us useless eaters out there in the world, and that the garden is in desperate need of pruning.

Compulsory vaccination of entire populations seems like a pretty good way to set us up for that eventual weeding, if you ask me.


It's not a "fact". If it is, how do you know it? I think it's pretty clear that they want as many peasants as possible to work for them. Population growth is the main driver of economic growth, you know, the only other factor is productivity growth. I'll only suspect they want us dead if productivity growth outstrips population growth. It's possible that we'll see that happening soon as a consequence of rapid technological innovation, but it hasn't happened yet. In the meantime I've seen no evidence of elites trying to even bring down birth rates, which I think is extremely urgent. For the moment these 'kill-off' suspicions are, I think, more a kind of archetypal myth - the fear of the cold-blooded noble preying on peasants.

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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby elfismiles » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:15 am

The vaccine debate sure has heated up in the mainstream...

Statistics Report - February 2, 2015 (PDF - 757 KB)
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation ... report.pdf

•Claims (Petitions) Filed: Listed by Fiscal Year
•Claims Compensated or Dismissed with Number and Amount of Award Payment: Listed by Fiscal Year
•Claims Filed and Compensated or Dismissed: Listed by Vaccine
•National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) Adjudication Categories by Vaccine for Claims Filed Calendar Year 2006 to Present

Since the first National Vaccine Injury Compensation (VICP) claims were filed in 1989, 3,941 compensation awards have been made. More than $2.8 billion in compensation awards has been paid to petitioners and more than $121.6 million has been paid to cover attorneys' fees and other legal costs.

To date, 9,867 claims have been dismissed. Of those, 4,925 claimants were paid more than $65.3 million to cover attorneys’ fees and other legal costs.

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/data.html


The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is a national vaccine safety surveillance program co-sponsored by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). VAERS is a post-marketing safety surveillance program, collecting information about adverse events (possible side effects) that occur after the administration of vaccines licensed for use in the United States.

VAERS provides a nationwide mechanism by which adverse events following immunization may be reported, analyzed, and made available to the public. VAERS also provides a vehicle for disseminating vaccine safety-related information to parents and guardians, health care providers, vaccine manufacturers, state vaccine programs, and other constituencies. more...
https://vaers.hhs.gov/index/about/index

https://vaers.hhs.gov/index
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Sounder » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:04 am

Definitely worth your time.

CBS "60 MINUTES" documentary on the swine flu epidemics of 1976 in the U.S. It went on air only once and was never shown again.

All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby 82_28 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:38 am

Thanks, Sounder. That link should hopefully settle some arguments I am having with some friends and also agree with what I've been told all my life by trusted doctors -- since I suppose 1976 is when I spent weeks in a hospital as a baby. Sure I had all the boosters and shit, but I don't think since kindergarten have I had a single shot. :wink

YOU CAN ALWAYS BE A CARRIER, was their guidance, thus vaccines are basically useless as far as the spreading of it. I have never had the flu and have never had a flu shot. Just that with or without the "vaccine" you can always be a carrier yet show no symptoms.

I dunno. Just what they told me and my parents long ago.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Twyla LaSarc » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:54 pm

Disneyland seems to be a perfect vector for disease. Then again, I could never handle those kind of crowds and always found humans dressed in huge papier-mache character heads somewhat scary.

I agree with what many here are saying about this debate. I think the situation is far more nuanced than the publicity would suggest and that serious debate about vaccination, it's appropriate use and relative purity is being permanently skewed.

But then again, this has been happening a lot lately to alternative health issues. They are equated by professional 'skeptics' with cult religious instruction...although they certainly aren't IRL. I know a shitton of people who question vaccines as they are performed in our society, GMOs, the SAD american diet, who use reiki and homeopathy and acupuncture when they deem it appropriate etc. who aren't religious nuts by a fucking long shot. This shit is all about immunization sure, but the target is belief and 'common sense' and engineering an echo chamber that does not allow true skepticism of the motives and methods of our social engineers, who surely only want the best for us...

I am finding it harder to remain on many message boards these days. The hatred drummed up for those who do not conform to modern western medicine (as evidenced by throwing thousands at a priest-doctor in return for a litany of drugs to line the kitchen counter to treat all those diseases you might get) is turning me off from communication with a lot of people who do not want to listen to nuance and details. They will pry the echinacea and blackstrap molasses from my cold, dead hands I'm telling you...
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:18 pm

It's a terrible tragedy for a child to die from any supposedly curative or preventive medicine or vaccine. Or from any other cause. But losing a child in this way must shatter a parent's belief in modern medicine's ability to be helpful.

And while vaccines would be a good way to alter the future potential abilities of a vaccinated population might seem like woo, we know our men of science have experimented on unknowing subjects and general populations in the past, we cannot be sure they have ever abated this practice. And we can and do find ample evidence in those who say these practices are more widespread; in populations of Africans, many of whom still believe in witchcraft taboos, to our own RI commentators noting the static on social media.
I was reminded of the fact that there is only one thing that The Powers That Be all agree on, to a man, and that is that there are far too many of us useless eaters out there in the world, and that the garden is in desperate need of pruning.

Compulsory vaccination of entire populations seems like a pretty good way to set us up for that eventual weeding, if you ask me.


But the point Alwyn raises should be what is being discussed on social media and the MSM:

There's more out there. For the record, i'm not anti-vaccine. Vaccines have saved lives. But not everyone can take a vaccine safely, and if we don't take those children into account, we are just as culpable for their injury as a measles laden person taking out a person with chemo. You can't have the argument just one way. Our babies, whose immune system is just developing, don't need to be shot up right away with foreign substances. Vaccines, used intelligently, are life-savers. Used the way we use them today, en masse, and overdosed, borders on the criminally insane, and we may be doing more harm than good. Time will certainly tell.

Not all children are the chemically or genetically the same, so what commonality do children who experience adverse reactions have before being vaccinated?

Isn't there a better way we can determine whether a child will potentially be susceptible to having an adverse reaction prior to being vaccinated?

So if you do engage in social media I'd suggest sharing with others that there must be a better way to safely vaccinate our children to be found by examining similarities and differences in children not yet vaccinated children and compare the results with those children who did have negative reactions after being vaccinated. The conversation must be moved beyond the "NO!" being shouted from both sides.

Entrainment is a motherfucker.

Amen, brother!

Free will is a blessing.




So when can we arrange your smallpox vaccination date, Mr. Rex, to see you're "protected"?
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Postby Perelandra » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:56 pm

stefano » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:20 am wrote:Population growth is the main driver of economic growth, you know, the only other factor is productivity growth. I'll only suspect they want us dead if productivity growth outstrips population growth. It's possible that we'll see that happening soon as a consequence of rapid technological innovation, but it hasn't happened yet.
Excellent point.

I'd be interested in any resources for further reading about selective vaccination, if anybody knows of any.

PS Thanks, Alwyn.
“The past is never dead. It's not even past.” - William Faulkner
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby alwyn » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:15 pm

I raised those points on social media. The knee-jerk reaction is predictable, but disheartening. People in my artistic community, normally at the cutting edge of change in many areas are incredibly blind in this area. It's a perfect result of our educational process. You hear, starting in grade school, vaccines save lives! One of the great medical triumphs! Stopped the killing plagues!

I am currently reading a book "Dissolving Illusions" by Suzanne Humphries, MD. She was a nephrologist, a doctor who specializes in kidney health and kidney disease, and used to notice that when her patients would get a vaccine, they would get kidney failure. At first she thought it was a fluke, then she noticed a distressing regularity. So she notified her superiors at the hospital, who swiftly told her she was hallucinating. She ordered a stop to the immediate vaccinations that her patients would get. NO more kidney failure. Of course that didn't last long. She spoke of doctors and nurses coming up to her privately, and telling her that they agreed with her, but the PTB were not willing to advance the argument.

This, as they say, got her thinking a great deal about vaccines, and she started research into their history and application. The book is her result.

What i found fascinating is that the "anti-vax" movement, as they like to call it, started in the middle of the NINETEENTH century in Leicester, England. Oddly enough, vaccination was compulsory back then. The mothers and fathers, (you know, those ignorant ones who are with their children day in and day out) noticed that many of their children died from the smallpox VACCINATION. There were fines and jail time for the resisters, and rather tough tactics with police forcibly vaccinating children. Finally the parents had had enough, and arose en-masse, marched on the capitol, and got the laws changed. They stopped the major vector of smallpox back then, the VACCINE! They came up with laws to increase sanitation, clean up the water, pick up the trash, and they treated each case of wild smallpox, (an ever diminishing number) with quarantine in healthy surroundings. Deaths from smallpox in Leicester were practically non-existent, while deaths in the surrounding towns touched nearly everyone. The officials made the usual remarks about 'herd-immunity' (probably the only time humans like being called a herd, for some reason i have yet to fathom) and disaster when the un-vaccinated bred, yet the town of Leicester thrived and grew, while the opposite happened to the surrounding areas.

One could make the case that the vaccine was dirty and primitive in those times. Then Susanne goes to make the case with the current crop of vaccines. She makes a convincing case about Polio (which, in the wild strain apparently effects everyone in their gut, and was a self-limiting pathogen, mostly asymptomatic, in indigenous cultures around the world) also naturally falling in frequency BEFORE the vaccine. She also linked the current historical epidemic to DDT, which was used everywhere to PREVENT polio. She talks about parallels in India today, where polio is rampant, and DDT is still in use. She also discusses the fact that infants there are being compulsorily immunized against polio up to 50 times! And still they have no 'immunity' to the disease. She also spoke of a nurse in the outback Austrailia, when the polio epidemic hit out there. She talked about the children playing on barrels of DDT, and in them when they had been emptied. She cured all her patients with no deaths and no permanent paralysis with vitamin C in large doses. Of course, this was not a popular idea. She also spoke about the many many people who got Polio from the vaccine itself, and their disease was particularly grave, and oft-times fatal.

The dread measles had dwindled to practially NO deaths by the time the vaccine was invented. Hygiene and good diet helped attenuate the epidemics of the turn of the last century. She spoke of vitamin A deficiency being one of the causes for this particular diseases' virulence in particular cases. She also states that there is no particular immunity being gained from the vaccine because there is no natural immunity, which used to be passed down in mother's milk, which helped mitigate the disease. The 1930's and 40's were a time when nursing fell out of fashion, processed food and formula became more available, and measles had a corresponding peak. More children were breast fed in the 50's and 60's, and had better nutrition, and the cases fell in incidence and virulence.

She lays the case for each vaccine, giving some scary information about each that is not popularly published about vaccine failure.
With the measels, along with whooping cough, she states that not only are the vaccines not producing immunity, but everyone who has the vaccine is actually a carrier of the disease, and infectious. And when they get the particular disease, they get it worse, because, rather than getting the wild version of the disease, and having the body mount a full immune defense (which doctors have only a fundamental understanding of) the poor people get a raging version of the disease because their body has learned to mount a defense against only one antigen, instead of the whole virus, and has no defense for the real thing.

There is much more in the book, and I highly recommend it's reading. It is well researched; she gives good footnotes to back up her research and has lovely graphs to show you the incidence of each disease, and it's downward trajectory before the vaccine. She also gives a very scary upward trajectory, in modern times, of the rise of the diseases the vaccinations are supposed to prevent in the VACCINATED population! If you have kindle free, it's a free book. I"m not sure I would let my kid have ANY vaccines after reading this.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Searcher08 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:17 pm

Twyla LaSarc » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:54 pm wrote:Disneyland seems to be a perfect vector for disease. Then again, I could never handle those kind of crowds and always found humans dressed in huge papier-mache character heads somewhat scary.

I agree with what many here are saying about this debate. I think the situation is far more nuanced than the publicity would suggest and that serious debate about vaccination, it's appropriate use and relative purity is being permanently skewed.

But then again, this has been happening a lot lately to alternative health issues. They are equated by professional 'skeptics' with cult religious instruction...although they certainly aren't IRL. I know a shitton of people who question vaccines as they are performed in our society, GMOs, the SAD american diet, who use reiki and homeopathy and acupuncture when they deem it appropriate etc. who aren't religious nuts by a fucking long shot. This shit is all about immunization sure, but the target is belief and 'common sense' and engineering an echo chamber that does not allow true skepticism of the motives and methods of our social engineers, who surely only want the best for us...

I am finding it harder to remain on many message boards these days. The hatred drummed up for those who do not conform to modern western medicine (as evidenced by throwing thousands at a priest-doctor in return for a litany of drugs to line the kitchen counter to treat all those diseases you might get) is turning me off from communication with a lot of people who do not want to listen to nuance and details. They will pry the echinacea and blackstrap molasses from my cold, dead hands I'm telling you...


Amen!
There is SO much incredible deceit around the skeptic 'exposes' on things like homeopathy.


Reading the fundamentalist pseudoskeptic comments echochamber, I'm left wondering if there is hope for the human race - then see
lxmzhg
David Sackett, M.D., the Canadian physician who is widely considered to be one of the leading pioneers in "evidence based medicine," has expressed serious concern about those researchers and physicians who consider randomized and double-blind trials as the only means to determine whether a treatment is effective or not. To make this assertion, one would have to acknowledge that virtually all surgical procedures were "unscientific" or "unproven" because so few have undergone randomized double-blind trials.

"As currently practiced, EBM appears to worship clinical trial evidence above all else and nearly completely ignores basic science considerations, relegating them to the lowest form of evidence, lower than even small case series. This blind spot has directly contributed to the infiltration of quackery into academic medicine and so-called EBM …"
'Why “Science”-Based Instead of “Evidence”-Based?'


I would say that "Science"-Based is now turning into a religion and that there is an emerging "Dictatorship of the Expert Luminaries and their enforcers"
full of double binds

A I have a new theory that goes against tradition!
B Well, get it published in a peer-reviewed journal
A No one will referee it because it goes against tradition
B Well, it isnt worth publishing and you must be wrong!
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby 82_28 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:33 pm

Alwyn wrote:

She lays the case for each vaccine, giving some scary information about each that is not popularly published about vaccine failure.
With the measels, along with whooping cough, she states that not only are the vaccines not producing immunity, but everyone who has the vaccine is actually a carrier of the disease, and infectious. And when they get the particular disease, they get it worse, because, rather than getting the wild version of the disease, and having the body mount a full immune defense (which doctors have only a fundamental understanding of) the poor people get a raging version of the disease because their body has learned to mount a defense against only one antigen, instead of the whole virus, and has no defense for the real thing.


This.

It is exactly what my pediatricians believed -- at least in my case. Though they gave me all the shots that got me there.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby slomo » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:17 pm

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/07/anti_va ... authority/

Questioning science is an urgent and necessary aspect of contemporary critical thinking, and the questions that anti-vaxxers start with are entirely legitimate: What are you putting in my kid’s body? Is it safe, and is it necessary? Who’s making money off this, and what do we know about them? And even beyond that: Can I trust that you are telling me the truth? My kids have had all their shots, and I believe that people who refuse vaccination are putting together shreds of old anecdote and flawed evidence and conspiratorial ideology to reach a faulty conclusion. As we have recently discovered, this can have unfortunate public health consequences. But I speak for many parents when I say that I don’t begrudge those people their doubts, because I have shared them.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby Sounder » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:48 am

Hi slomo, hope all is well with you.

The forces of social conformity are most convincing.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Vaccine - Autism link

Postby stefano » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:08 am

Thanks all. I definitely don't agree with you, but I'm going to have to do some homework before I can say why. Just one thing I could look up quickly:

alwyn » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:15 pm wrote:She talks about parallels in India today, where polio is rampant, and DDT is still in use. She also discusses the fact that infants there are being compulsorily immunized against polio up to 50 times! And still they have no 'immunity' to the disease.


This is untrue. India was declared polio-free last year.

India hails polio-free 'milestone'

13 January 2014

India is marking three years since its last reported polio case, a landmark in the global battle against the disease.

It is seen as confirmation of one of India's biggest public health successes, achieved through a massive and sustained immunisation programme.
[...]
Image
[...]Only one case of polio was recorded in India in 2011, down from 741 in 2009. It came from the eastern state of West Bengal in 2011 when an 18-month-old girl was found to have contracted the disease.
[...]


Searcher08 wrote:There is SO much incredible deceit around the skeptic 'exposes' on things like homeopathy.


Really? Homeopathy? Do you have some reading on that? (Can't do a 1 1/2 hour movie.)
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