Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case by Robert Parry

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case by Robert Parry

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:41 pm

brought to you by those notorious Putin apologists... me, Robert :P and German Inteligence


Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case
October 20, 2014

Exclusive: for months, Western governments and media have accused Russia of supplying the anti-aircraft missile that brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 killing 298 people. But now German intelligence has reportedly determined the missile came from a Ukrainian military base, writes Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

The West’s case blaming Russia for the shoot-down of a Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine last July appears to be crumbling as the German foreign intelligence agency has concluded that the anti-aircraft missile battery involved came from a Ukrainian military base, according to a report by the German newsmagazine Der Spiegel.

The Obama administration and other Western governments have pointed the finger of blame at Russia for supposedly supplying a sophisticated BUK missile system to ethnic Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine who then allegedly used the weapon on July 17 to shoot down what they thought was a Ukrainian military plane but turned out to be Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, killing all 298 people onboard.

The Russians denied providing the rebels with the weapon and the rebels denied shooting down the plane. But the tragedy gave the U.S. State Department the emotional leverage to get the European Union to impose tougher economic sanctions on Russia, touching off a trade war that has edged Europe toward a new recession.

But now the narrative has shifted. The German intelligence agency, the Bundesnachrichtendienst or BND, asserted that while it believes rebels were responsible for shooting down the plane, they supposedly did so with an anti-aircraft battery captured from a Ukrainian military base, according to Der Spiegel.

The BND also concluded that photos supplied by the Ukrainian government about the MH-17 tragedy “have been manipulated,” Der Spiegel reported. And, the BND disputed Russian government claims that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to MH-17 just before it crashed, the magazine said.

None of the BND’s evidence to support its conclusions has been made public — and I was subsequently told by a European official that the evidence was not as conclusive as the magazine article depicted.

Der Spiegel said the information given to members of a parliamentary committee on Oct. 8 included satellite images and other photography. What’s less clear, however, is how the BND could determine the precise command-and-control of the anti-aircraft missile system amid the chaotic military situation that existed in eastern Ukraine last July.

At the time, the Ukrainian army and allied militias were mounting an offensive against ethnic Russian rebels who were resisting a U.S.-backed coup regime that ousted elected President Viktor Yanukovych last February, touching off what quickly became a nasty civil war.

Spearheading Kiev’s summer offensive were pro-government militias, some of which were filled with neo-Nazi extremists and financed by Ukrainian billionaire oligarchs including Ihor Kolomoisky, who had been appointed governor of the southeastern Dnipropetrovsk Region. The ethnic Russian rebels also were a disorganized lot with poor command and control.

Rushing to Anti-Russian Judgment

Yet, the Obama administration was quick to pin the blame for the MH-17 crash on Russia and the rebels. Just three days after the crash, Secretary of State John Kerry went on all five Sunday talk shows fingering Russia and the rebels and citing evidence provided by the Ukrainian government through social media.

On NBC’s “Meet the Press,” David Gregory asked, “Are you bottom-lining here that Russia provided the weapon?”

Kerry: “There’s a story today confirming that, but we have not within the Administration made a determination. But it’s pretty clear when – there’s a build-up of extraordinary circumstantial evidence. I’m a former prosecutor. I’ve tried cases on circumstantial evidence; it’s powerful here.” [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Kerry’s Latest Reckless Rush to Judgment.”]

But some U.S. intelligence analysts offered conflicting assessments. After Kerry’s TV round-robin, the Los Angeles Times reported on a U.S. intelligence briefing given to several mainstream U.S. news outlets. The story said, “U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [anti-aircraft missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.” [See Consortiumnews.com’s “The Mystery of a Ukrainian ‘Defector,’”]

A source who was briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that some analysts had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appeared Ukrainian government forces were to blame, although possibly a unit operating outside the direct command of Ukraine’s top officials.

The source specifically said the U.S. intelligence evidence did not implicate Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko or Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk but rather suggested an extremist element of the armed forces funded by one of Ukraine’s oligarchs.

Regarding the alleged Russian role, the source said the U.S. analysts had found no evidence that the Russian government had given the rebels a BUK missile system, which would be capable of shooting down a commercial airliner at 33,000 feet, the altitude of MH-17.

According to the Der Spiegel story, the BND reached the same conclusion, that Russia was not the source of the missile battery. But the BND and these U.S. analysts apparently differ on who they suspect fired the fateful missile. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Flight 17 Shoot-down Scenario Shifts”and “Was Putin Targeted for Mid-air Assassination?”]

What has been curious about the handling of the MH-17 case is the failure of the Obama administration and other Western governments to present whatever evidence they have, whether satellite, electronic or telephonic so the investigation can proceed more quickly in determining who was responsible.

By withholding this evidence for nearly three months, the West has benefited from keeping alive the anti-Russian propaganda – blaming Moscow and President Vladimir Putin for the tragedy – but the secrecy has given the perpetrators time to scatter and cover their tracks.

With Der Spiegel’s report, it’s now clearer why the delay and the secrecy. If the missile responsible for bringing down MH-17 came from a Ukrainian military base – not from the Russian government – then a very potent anti-Putin propaganda theme would be neutralized. More attention also would focus on whether the missile battery was really under the control of a rebel unit, as the BND suggests – or was in the hands of anti-rebel extremists.


Deadly Ukraine Crash: German Intelligence Claims Pro-Russian Separatists Downed MH17

Burning debris at the crash site of Malaysian Airllines Flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine on July 17: "It was pro-Russian separatists," the head of Germany's foreign intelligence agency, the BND, has told parliament of the crash cause.Zoom
DPA
Burning debris at the crash site of Malaysian Airllines Flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine on July 17: "It was pro-Russian separatists," the head of Germany's foreign intelligence agency, the BND, has told parliament of the crash cause.
Germany's foreign intelligence agency says its review of the crash of a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 in Ukrainian has concluded it was brought down by a missile fired by pro-Russian separatists near Donetsk.


After completing a detailed analysis, Germany's foreign intelligence service, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has concluded that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 on July 19 in eastern Ukraine while on route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

ANZEIGE

In an Oct. 8 presentation given to members of the parliamentary control committee, the Bundestag body responsible for monitoring the work of German intelligence, BND President Gerhard Schindler provided ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence. The BND has intelligence indicating that pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK air defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base and fired a missile on July 17 that exploded in direct proximity to the Malaysian aircraft, which had been carrying 298 people.
Unambiguous Findings

Evidence obtained shortly after the accident suggested the aircraft had been shot down by pro-Russian militants. Both the governments of Russia and Ukraine had mutually accused each other of responsibility for the crash. After a Dutch investigative commission reviewed the flight recorder, it avoided placing any blame for the crash. Some 189 residents of the Netherlands perished in the downing of Flight MH17.

BND's Schindler says his agency has come up with unambiguous findings. One is that Ukrainian photos have been manipulated and that there are details indicating this. He also told the panel that Russian claims the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to the passenger jet were false.

"It was pro-Russian separatists," Schindler said of the crash, which involved the deaths of four German citizens. A spokesman for the German Federal Prosecutor's Office told SPIEGEL that an investigation has been opened into unknown perpetrators because of the possibility that the crash had been a war crime.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case by Robert Parry

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:30 pm

Is this the moment MH17 was shot down over Ukraine? Shock new images released

SENSATIONAL new pictures alleged to be the first satellite images of the shooting down of Malaysian Boeing MH17 were produced tonight by Russia's main state broadcaster.
Image
By: Will StewartPublished: Fri, November 14, 2014


283 passengers were killed after MH17 was shot down CHANNEL 1/EAST2WEST NEWS
283 passengers were killed after MH17 was shot down, including 80 children and 50 crew
The photographs were interpreted by Russian "experts" as indicating that the passenger plane was shot down in July by a Ukrainian warplane and not a ground to air missile.

It was claimed that the space pictures were from a British or US satellite.

The "leaked" images show a missile streaking towards the MH17 flight which was downed, killing all 298 people on board, it was claimed.
Image
It was suggested that the images show how a Mig-29 fighter plane destroys the Boeing passenger planeCHANNEL1/EAST2WESTNEWS
It was suggested that the images show how a Mig-29 fighter plane destroys the Boeing passenger plane
The TV presenter Mikhail Leontiev claimed that the mysterious source who provided the images concluded they showed "how a Mig-29 fighter plane destroys the Boeing passenger plane".

The West has repeatedly suggested the plane was shot down by pro-Moscow rebels using a Russian-made BUK missile system.

Russia has argued an unidentified plane was in vicinity at the time of the crash, and that Ukraine and the West have hushed up this fact.

The Kremlin-owned channel's presenter said: "Today we have all grounds to suppose that a State crime was committed by those who deliberately destroyed the plane.

"And by those who are cynically hiding it, having the full information."

The images came from a mysterious source CHANNEL1/EAST2WESTNEWS
The images came from a mysterious source
We have studied this picture in detail and did not find any sign proving it to be fake
Ivan Adrievskiy, VP of Russian Engineers Union
The extraordinary broadcast came ahead of Western leaders including David Cameron confronting Vladimir Putin over the crash at a summit in Australia.

Channel One claimed: "We have at our disposal a sensational shot, supposedly made by foreign satellite spy during the final seconds of MH17 above Ukraine."

The reported disputed a BUK missile as the cause of the tragedy.

"To cut it short, it looks like there was no BUK and no launch from the ground.

These pictures could show the final seconds of MH17 CHANNEL1/EAST2WESTNEWS
These pictures could show the final seconds of MH17
"There were dozens professional and thousands of amateur witnesses, and no-one registered it," claimed Leontiev.
Image
Ivan Adrievskiy, vice president of Russian Engineers Union, said: "We see a photograph taken from space from a low orbit.

The time stamp on the images CHANNEL1/EAST2WESTNEWS
The time stamp on the images
"Usually such images are taken for the sake of general reconnaissance of the air and the ground.

"The coordinates of the photograph mean we can suppose that the image was taken by an American or British satellite.
Image
George Bilt was cited as saying the plane was shot in 'a classic fighter jet attack from the rear' CHANNEL1/EAST2WESTNEWS
George Bilt was cited as saying the plane was shot in 'a classic fighter jet attack from the rear'
"We have studied this picture in detail and did not find any sign proving it to be fake."

An "expert" called George Bilt was cited as saying the Boeing was shot out of the sky in "a classic fighter jet attack from the rear".


Russia’s Channel One show satellite photo evidencing MH17 was downed by fighter jet

Ultrahigh resolution imagery here.
https://niqnaq.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/0162309.jpg
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case by Robert Parry

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:08 pm

from The Telegraph

Russia says MH17 was shot down by plane missiles
State television claims to have received the 'sensational pictures' showing the Boeing was shot down by cannon fire over Ukraine
Satellite images which suggest MH17, top, was shot down by a Ukrainian warplane, inset
Satellite images which suggest MH17, top, was shot down by a Ukrainian warplane, inset Photo: east2west news/Channel One
By Tom Parfitt9:49PM GMT 14 Nov 2014
Russian state television has produced a "satellite image" that allegedly showed Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 being shot down by a fighter jet yesterday, in what appeared to be a crude fake deliberately released on the eve of the G20 economic summit.
Channel One presented the image, said to have been taken moments before the passenger jet crashed in eastern Ukraine, as a smoking gun that confirmed how MH17 had been downed, killing all 298 people on board on July 17.
"It's well know that at the [G20] summit in Brisbane, the Australian prime minister [Tony] Abbott has threatened to confront our president about the Malaysian Boeing," said the presenter, Mikhail Leontyev, who is one of Vladimir Putin's chief propaganda mouthpieces. "Let's try to make his task a little easier."
A Russian engineer investigating the crash told the programme he had received the "sensational picture" on November 12. The channel showed an email in English from a "George Bilt", supposedly a graduate of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and aviation expert, who claimed the Boeing was shot down by cannon fire and missiles from a plane.
Moscow has suggested in the past that a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter jet was tracking the passenger liner.
Related Articles
Ukraine must strengthen army against 'Russian aggression', says PM 14 Nov 2014
Russian response to MH17 report muted 09 Sep 2014
Russian dead 'being removed from Ukraine' 13 Nov 2014
MH17: Russia accuses US of fabricating evidence 24 Jul 2014
A new Cold War 09 Nov 2014
Russian and international bloggers quickly pointed to what they said were a mass of discrepancies with the supposed satellite image, including the fact the markings on the side of the Boeing were in the wrong place for a Malaysia Airlines jet, the clouds in the picture were identical to those in a Google Earth image from 2012, and the image was not consistent with the flight path of the jet.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case by Robert Parry

Postby justdrew » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:55 pm

anyone know anything about spy sats?

Wouldn't the camera have to be focused near the altitude the planes were flying at?

Aren't such camera usually focused on the ground?

Any other spy sat pics able to capture planes like this?

It's certainly possible the sat was intentionally tasked to capture the planes.

Certainly remarkable, but also very dismissible. Do we have non jpeg high res versions?
By 1964 there were 1.5 million mobile phone users in the US
User avatar
justdrew
 
Posts: 11966
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 7:57 pm
Location: unknown
Blog: View Blog (11)

Re: Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case by Robert Parry

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:57 pm

Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case by Robert Parry

Postby justdrew » Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:09 pm



ok.

well, I'm no expert (thank gawd) but I suspect that missile would be designed to lead the target and blow slightly in front of the heat source.
By 1964 there were 1.5 million mobile phone users in the US
User avatar
justdrew
 
Posts: 11966
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 7:57 pm
Location: unknown
Blog: View Blog (11)

Re: Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case by Robert Parry

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:10 pm

Drew, I am skeptical, too - mostly just because it is such a masterstroke of evidence.

However, satellite imagery is not strictly photography:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_fusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multispectral_image

Although given some of the posts I've seen you make, you may already know this quite well.
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
 
Posts: 10896
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case by Robert Parry

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:30 pm

Russian State Television Shares Fake Images of MH17 Being Attacked

November 14, 2014 By Veli-Pekka Kivimäki
On Friday November 14th, Russian state television ran a story of supposed foreign satellite images showing the last moments of flight MH17, with a fighter jet appearing to fire at the plane. Suspicions arose immediately on Twitter, and inconsistencies were pointed out, quickly leading to the conclusion the image is a crude fabrication.

To start, the image has been posted on a Russian message board on October 15th, claiming to originate from WikiLeaks. This contradicts the origin of these images as being “George Bilt”, whose e-mail dated November 9th was reported as the source of these images.


There are additional details that can be looked at in the image, like the scale of the aircraft in relation to each other, as well as the their scale compared to the rest of the image. It has additionally been pointed out that planes in the satellite map imagery published in the Russia media appear surprisingly clear, compared to reference imagery looked at by the Bellingcat team.

In conclusion, there are several issues with the image, as pointed out above. Thus, the material reported by 1TV cannot be deemed credible to support the theory that MH17 was shot downed by another aircraft.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Germans Clear Russia in MH-17 Case by Robert Parry

Postby justdrew » Fri May 15, 2015 12:27 pm

well, I'm not so sure it's fake, when I said it's dismissible, I just mean there's no way to authenticate it. but the issues raised in that "Bellingcat" blurb don't seem definitive either, so I'll leav it in the possible realm.

Also, it said it came from "Russian Wikileaks" not "wikileaks"

If someone wanted to fake it, wouldn't it be not all that difficult to get all those points raised by bellingcat right?


Last bumped by seemslikeadream on Fri May 15, 2015 12:27 pm.
By 1964 there were 1.5 million mobile phone users in the US
User avatar
justdrew
 
Posts: 11966
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 7:57 pm
Location: unknown
Blog: View Blog (11)


Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 149 guests