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Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theater

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:16 am
by guruilla
I wouldn’t normally be paying attention to this news story because I don’t normally pay attention to the news. Paying attention to this story has underlined why I don’t normally pay attention to the news. Blatant lies and the smug disregard for our intelligence and discernment or our ability or willingness to stop and question the official narrative, that's like watching a really bad movie that knows it's going to make loads of money anyway so doesn't give a shit about what anyone thinks. Insulting but nothing really new there.

The part that hurts me is when the piece of crap gets critical raves and I get to watch people go along with the sham docilely and obediently, like lambs to the epistemological slaughter. But even that wouldn’t bother me if I didn’t have a personal stake in it, which is: I’m supposed to be doing a podcast with someone who joined the “Je Suis Charlie” solidarity movement or whatever-TF it was, and now I feel like the difference in our worldviews has turned into a fault-line rapidly extending in both directions between us—a great divide.

It struck me, while wrestling with this situation and catching up on “world events”—i.e. the dominant narrative—that what I feel above all now is: powerlessness. The idea that this is what “They” want you to feel popped up, of course; but what felt more real to me was that this is how I need to feel. No, I'm not a masochist; it's just that powerlessness is the primal experience of all living beings and it’s also the one we end up staring in the face, one way or another (at least if we see the bullet/truck/terminal disease coming). So why kid ourselves it’s ever any different in between, right?

So feeling powerless is like a State-given opportunity to re-experience and integrate the primary formative experience of (my) life? Yay, thanks Power Elite! All right, whatever; that’s the obligatory philosophical lead-in to what led me to RI after a long hiatus, to see what was up here, seek a little community perhaps, and inhale a breath of relative sanity… :jumping:

Skimming the thread on Charlie Hebdo, the image of all the white rich folk holding up their JSC banners and wearing their buttons gave me an idea about what’s going on here and why I experience this sort of hypocritical human solidarity (huddling) as so oppressive. It’s mimesis.

Recently I’ve been looking into Liminality; it started as a literary interest but I quickly found out how closely it pertains to other areas of personal interest, include socio-political.

Wiki:

During liminal periods of all kinds, social hierarchies may be reversed or temporarily dissolved, continuity of tradition may become uncertain, and future outcomes once taken for granted may be thrown into doubt.

Liminality in large-scale societies differs significantly from liminality found in ritual passages in small-scale societies. One primary characteristic of liminality (as defined van Gennep and Turner) is that there is a way in as well as a way out. In ritual passages, “members of the society are themselves aware of the liminal state: they know that they will leave it sooner or later, and have ‘ceremony masters’ to guide them through the rituals”. However, in those liminal periods that affect society as a whole, the future (what comes after the liminal period) is completely unknown, and there is no "ceremony master" who has gone through the process before and that can lead people out of it.

In such cases, liminal situations can become dangerous. They allow for the emergence of “self-proclaimed ceremony masters”, that assume leadership positions and attempt to “[perpetuate] liminality and by emptying the liminal moment of real creativity, [turn] it into a scene of mimetic rivalry”

Mimesis, or the imitative aspect of human behavior, is an important aspect of liminality. Individuals who are trapped in a liminal situation are not able to act rationally for two reasons: “first, because the structure on which ‘objective’ rationality was-- based has disappeared; and second, because the stressful, emotive character of a liminal crisis prevents clear thinking”. This can lead to “mimetic” behavior on the part of the trapped individuals: “a central characteristic of liminal situations is that, by eliminating the stable boundary lines, they contribute to the proliferation of imitative processes and thus to the continuous reproduction of dominant messages about what to copy”. Without stable institutions (which are effectively broken down in a liminal period), “people will look at concrete individuals for guidance.”

Mimesis brings us to Rene Girard, whose work I recommend to anyone interested in reaching a better meta-understanding of current events. Here’s a summation for dummies (by a dummy, so grit your teeth if you are already well-versed in Girardism): Mimetic rivalry is when/how mimesis leads inevitably to violence, because when imitation spreads, two things happen: people desire what other people have and end up using violence to get it; and, as violence spreads in an already heightened environment of mimesis, the violence itself is imitated and escalates to the point that it becomes irrational, undirected, primal, an uncontained frenzy of killing, like a forest fire.

Girard sees this as probably the primary threat to all communities and civilization in general. Community can’t work together without mimesis, yet mimesis leads to mimetic rivalry which leads to violence which leads to the destruction of community. How to square this frikkin circle?

The solution Girard traces through civilization is that of the scapegoat: an individual or individuals whom the community on the edge of chaos first agrees is guilty, and then gets to participate in some way in his destruction. The Greeks acted this ritual out via cathartic theater, Oedipus being the main scapegoat-figure, and it was crucial in Greek theater that the killing of the scapegoat was enacted off-stage, because to see the violence would risk enflaming the crowd with blood lust. It’s interesting to note in relation to this how the recent Charlie killers were caught and killed off-camera, even though everything else got filmed. It was similar with Adam Lanza/Sandy Hook, and even Osama bin Laden, if memory serves.

After the scapegoat sacrifice has been made, the community is bound together by the ritual killing and experiences a new degree of solidarity. Whatever differences were threatening to tear the community apart have been projected onto the guilty party—whose difference is so marked that it reduces the community’s internal conflicts to nothing—redirecting the fear and hostility outward while unifying the desire by focusing it on an external element: something that the whole community can share in together, rather than fight over.

“Je Suis Charlie” is the unified voice of the community expressing its solidarity, agreement, over this “wrong” committed and the corresponding “rightness” of recognizing the “wrongness”: basically: “Them bad—us good!”

The funny thing is that the designated Other that threatens the community only does so because it desires the same things but goes about getting them in a different way.

In the current global narrative, the two opposing communities are Islam (meaning surrender!) and Western/Christian “freedom.” “Je Suis Charlie,” if I grok correctly what people are huddling together about, is an expression of the sanctity of “free speech,” in contrast to the evil intolerance of fanatical Islam. Yet, as has been pointed out, France has plenty of laws against free speech when they are considered “hate crimes,” only these laws are generally not extended to Moslems. Even more revealingly, the reaction to this latest (seemingly staged, pls note!) event has been to further reduce freedom of expression within the Western world under the guise of defending freedom of expression!

I am just groping my way through this material now, but this seems to relate to something called “the double bind”:

The double bind is often misunderstood to be a simple contradictory situation, where the subject is trapped by two conflicting demands. While it's true that the core of the double bind is two conflicting demands, the difference lies in how they are imposed upon the subject, what the subject's understanding of the situation is, and who (or what) imposes these demands upon the subject. Unlike the usual no-win situation, the subject has difficulty in defining the exact nature of the paradoxical situation in which he or she is caught.


Girard's mimetic double bind
… According to Girard, the “internal mediation” of this mimetic dynamic “operates along the same lines as what Gregory Bateson called the ‘double bind’.” Girard found in Sigmund Freud's psychoanalytic theory, a precursor to mimetic desire. “The individual who 'adjusts' has managed to relegate the two contradictory injunctions of the double bind—to imitate and not to imitate—to two different domains of application. This is, he divides reality in such a way as to neutralize the double bind.” While critical of Freud's doctrine of the unconscious mind, Girard sees the ancient Greek tragedy, Oedipus the King, and key elements of Freud's Oedipus complex, patricidal and incestuous desire, to serve as prototypes for his own analysis of the mimetic double bind.

Far from being restricted to a limited number of pathological cases, as American theoreticians suggest, the double bind—a contradictory double imperative, or rather a whole network of contradictory imperatives—is an extremely common phenomenon. In fact, it is so common that it might be said to form the basis of all human relationships.

Bateson is undoubtedly correct in believing that the effects of the double bind on the child are particularly devastating. All the grown-up voices around him, beginning with those of the father and mother (voices which, in our society at least, speak for the culture with the force of established authority) exclaim in a variety of accents, “Imitate us!” “Imitate me!” “I bear the secret of life, of true being!” The more attentive the child is to these seductive words, and the more earnestly he responds to the suggestions emanating from all sides, the more devastating will be the eventual conflicts. The child possesses no perspective that will allow him to see things as they are. He has no basis for reasoned judgments, no means of foreseeing the metamorphosis of his model into a rival. This model's opposition reverberates in his mind like a terrible condemnation; he can only regard it as an act of excommunication. The future orientation of his desires—that is, the choice of his future models—will be significantly affected by the dichotomies of his childhood. In fact, these models will determine the shape of his personality.

If desire is allowed its own bent, its mimetic nature will almost always lead it into a double bind. The unchanneled mimetic impulse hurls itself blindly against the obstacle of a conflicting desire. It invites its own rebuffs and these rebuffs will in turn strengthen the mimetic inclination. We have, then, a self-perpetuating process, constantly increasing in simplicity and fervor. Whenever the disciple borrows from his model what he believes to be the “true” object, he tries to possess that truth by desiring precisely what this model desires. Whenever he sees himself closest to the supreme goal, he comes into violent conflict with a rival. By a mental shortcut that is both eminently logical and self-defeating, he convinces himself that the violence itself is the most distinctive attribute of this supreme goal! Ever afterward, violence will invariably awaken desire...

—René Girard, Violence and the Sacred “From Mimetic Desire to the Monstrous Double”, pp.156–157


So double-bind = powerlessness??

After that the next passage was this one:

Neuro-linguistic programming
The field of neuro-linguistic programming also makes use of the expression "double bind". Grinder and Bandler (both of whom had personal contact with Bateson) asserted that a message could be constructed with multiple messages, whereby the recipient of the message is given the impression of choice—although both options have the same outcome at a higher level of intention. This is called a "double bind" in NLP terminology, and has applications in both sales and therapy. In therapy, the practitioner may seek to challenge destructive double binds that limit the client in some way and may also construct double binds in which both options have therapeutic consequences. In a sales context, the speaker may give the respondent the illusion of choice between two possibilities. For example, a salesperson might ask: "Would you like to pay cash or by credit card?", with both outcomes presupposing that the person will make the purchase; whereas the third option (that of not buying) is intentionally excluded from the spoken choices.

Note that in the NLP context, the use of the phrase "double bind" does not carry the primary definition of two conflicting messages; it is about creating a false sense of choice which ultimately binds to the intended outcome. In the "cash or credit card?" example, this is not a "Bateson double bind" since there is no contradiction, although it still is an "NLP double bind". Similarly if a salesman were selling a book about the evils of commerce, it could perhaps be a "Bateson double bind" if the buyer happened to believe that commerce was evil, yet felt compelled or obliged to buy the book.

Or, the afore-mentioned paradox in which standing up for free speech means imposing ever-more draconian laws against free speech.

Step away from the theater. This ain’t rock n’ roll. This is suicide. :panic:

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:13 am
by stefano
Thanks guruilla! I've nothing to add but thanks for a meaty contribution.

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:19 am
by Searcher08
Thanks for this, guruilla

There has been an ongoing battle in the war (based on the different epistemologies of pseudoskeptic reductionism and systems thinking / holism) for *years* between many Wiki editors and people passionate about and within the diverse field called NLP respectively.
This reached the ridiculous state where definitions of what NLP actually IS , from the people who created it, were rejected in favour of a nonsensical entry from - the Skeptics Dictionary. lulz.

So when it comes to using Wiki as a resource for anything NLP related, my assessment is that you will be given a description which is very deeply inaccurate. About as accurate as anything 9/11 Truth related, if you get my drift.

So the section on "NLP double bind" is an example. I have never heard of this phrase.

The example of "Would you like to pay by cash or check?" has nothing to do with Double Binds. It is a "Closed Question" which is often used by sales people to stop a client from further talking during the 'Closing' process of a sale.

In the language of NLP, an informal framing of Double Bind would be

If you do NOT do A, you will not (survive, be safe, have fun etc)
but if you DO do A, you will not (survive, be safe, have fun etc)

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:33 am
by coffin_dodger
An excellent synopsis with relevent examples of the 'normal' double-bind theory can be seen here -

http://www.psychotherapy.com.au/fileadmin/site_files/pdfs/TheDoubleBindTheory.pdf

This is an enormously under-estimated means of subtle (and not so subtle) control, imo.

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:10 pm
by guruilla
Yeah, good; like i say, groping my way. Not sure I;d even heard of the double-bind before last night, but the psychology is familiar enough.

"Solution" to double-bind = doublethink?

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:55 pm
by Sounder
coffin dodger wrote…
This is an enormously under-estimated means of subtle (and not so subtle) control, imo.


Yes, it may be a great contributor to a disinclination to resolve cognitive dissonance. Like, why bother, either answer sucks.


guruilla wrote…
"Solution" to double-bind = doublethink?


I gonna have to sit on that a spell.

The following was an answer a few days ago to, what was intended to be rhetorical question ;), what are power people trying to do?

The words leading and vision refer to Joe’s assessment that our situation can be described as ‘the blind leading the blind’.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37655&start=480
My opinion is that there is institutional memory of the value of imposing double binds on the general population. We become fools if we ‘believe’ and social outcasts when we choose not to believe. But more to the point of what the PTMB are trying to do; they are maintenance men for our dominant narrative, this vertical authority distribution system that provides the overweening, highbrow self-identity conceits of the plutocratic class.

This also provides the sensation of lots of leading, with very little vision as most folks imagination is used up in reacting rather than in creating. With a VADS the position rather than what one does, confers ones authority. So there are bound to be many examples of non-authentic expressions of authority leading to epidemics of eye-gouging.

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:52 pm
by guruilla
Sounder » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:55 pm wrote:Yes, it may be a great contributor to a disinclination to resolve cognitive dissonance. Like, why bother, either answer sucks.

My understanding of cognitive dissonance isn't that it's being faced with two options which are equally sucky but that neither option actually answers the problem/explains the situation, and/because they both contradict one another. Cognitive dissonance is effective for creating memes, collectively, and generating obsession, in individuals, because the brain is hardwired to keep returning to a problem which it can't find the solution to, such as any element of its environment which it cannot identify (hence may pose a threat).

I know this is how it affects me; if the Moon landing footage was proven to be a hoax, or proven to be real, then it wouldn't much interest me; but the not-knowing makes it endlessly tantalizing and I end up caring disproportionately about something. Ditto now with Charlie Hebno, having seen the footage of the cop not being shot, the fact that people (I know one of them) don't consider this conclusive means that the problem I am dealing with, the cog. dissonance, is now in my own environment. I don't have to worry about false flag ops in France or lying media (I am sure enough that I have identified that problem), but I do end up worrying about having an increasingly tense relationship with someone I respect who seems unable to see something that is blindingly obvious to me.

So suddenly I care about something (the CH shooting) that really doesn't matter to me that much. Now it's personal, etc.

My guess (actually I know) is that this happens because the experience triggers body memories of growing up in an environment in which obvious truths were being covered up and I was coerced, or terrorized, into going along with the false narrative. My guess (I don't know for sure) is that the Powers-That-Be arrange their little terrorist theater pieces in such a way that these basic formative psychological (family-based) tensions will be re-triggered in people's psyches, the double-bind experience relived, and the collective psyche split deepened, maybe between those who escape the cog diss of the DB by going deeper still into doublethink, vs those who experience increased cog diss, not so much between what the media is telling them is happening and what they see with their own eyes (since this second, smaller group now know that it's all fake), but between needing to feel safe and secure in the social group while becoming more and more alienated from it (because no one else sees what they see).

I'm sure there's been lots of talk about how the staging of these events seems, far from becoming more sophisticated and persuasive, to be getting sloppier and more obvious each time.

Also, in the way it is becoming impossible to even point out the fakeness or inaccuracy of the reporting without being labeled a conspiracy theorist ~ an experience quite similar to that of a child told to shut up and stop being silly if it wants to sit with the adults.

:wallhead:

Sounder » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:55 pm wrote:My opinion is that there is institutional memory of the value of imposing double binds on the general population. We become fools if we ‘believe’ and social outcasts when we choose not to believe.

Zegactly!

Sounder » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:55 pm wrote:This also provides the sensation of lots of leading, with very little vision as most folks imagination is used up in reacting rather than in creating.

It may be worse than this, that folk's imagination is being siphoned off into the fake/dominant narrative to keep it coherent, so people don't notice that the cop isn't killed because they themselves generate the necessary imagery ~ or at least, imbue the imagery with the required psychic content, horror, outrage, etc?

This is familiar idea to me coz it relates to what I've been deducing/intuiting about Kubrick's films

Sounder » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:55 pm wrote:With a VADS the position rather than what one does, confers ones authority. So there are bound to be many examples of non-authentic expressions of authority leading to epidemics of eye-gouging.


Without stable institutions (which are effectively broken down in a liminal period), “people will look at concrete individuals for guidance”.

This notion of imitation is closely tied to that of the trickster figure. The trickster is a universal figure that can be found in folktales and myths of nearly all cultures. These tricksters can be characterized as follows:
[they] are always marginal characters: outsiders, as they cannot trust or be trusted, cannot give or share, they are incapable of living in a community; they are repulsive, as – being insatiable – they are characterized by excessive eating, drinking, and sexual behavior, having no sense of shame; they are not taken seriously, given their affinity with jokes, storytelling, and fantasizing.

In the context of liminality, the trickster is a very dangerous figure: “in a liminal situation where certainties are lost, imitative behavior escalates, and tricksters can be mistaken for charismatic leaders”
...
When a trickster enters into a position of leadership, “liminality will not be restricted to a temporary crisis, followed by a return to normality, but can be perpetuated endlessly”

Oh, and look who shows up just down the page:

The term schismogenesis, developed by British anthropologist Gregory Bateson, can be used to describe situations of permanent liminality. Through this concept, Bateson suggested “that societies can be stuck for a long time in a state where the previous unity was broken, and yet the schismatic components are forced to stay together, producing an unpleasant, violent, harrowing, truly miserable existence”.[72] Bateson further suggested that “entire cultures might systematically produce schizoid personalities” and, by combining such an idea with the work of Turner and anthropologist René Girard, one could say that the trickster is capable of founding such a culture. Girard’s concept of mimetic desire (and, more importantly, the phenomenon he called the “mimetic crisis”) can be linked to the trickster and to absence of masters of ceremonies in large-scale instances of liminality:

When a mimetic crisis is artificially staged in the ritual process, it always happens in the presence of a “master of ceremonies” who maintains order once the stabilities of everyday life are dissolved in the rites of separation. When the schism takes place in real life, however, it is not certain that charismatic heroes emerge that are up to solving the situation through eidetic perception, in the Platonic sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminality

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:01 am
by justdrew
one way out may be to hypothesize a 3rd fact/situation that explains away the contradictions. and then test/probe for evidence of the 3rd factuation.

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:10 am
by guruilla
justdrew » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:01 am wrote:one way out may be to hypothesize a 3rd fact/situation that explains away the contradictions.

Or cancels them out.

Image

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:12 am
by guruilla
Image for today's blog post

Image

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:57 am
by coffin_dodger
guruilla wrote:It struck me, while wrestling with this situation and catching up on “world events”—i.e. the dominant narrative—that what I feel above all now is: powerlessness. The idea that this is what “They” want you to feel popped up, of course; but what felt more real to me was that this is how I need to feel. No, I'm not a masochist; it's just that powerlessness is the primal experience of all living beings and it’s also the one we end up staring in the face, one way or another (at least if we see the bullet/truck/terminal disease coming)


Have you ever felt powerful?

It's a buzz. A drug. An extremely potent drug. More powerful than narcotics. Behold the celebrity culture rapture, the cult of money. Like all addictions, the longer and more frequently the hit is experienced, the more difficult it becomes to reach the previous high, the more extreme dose is required to achieve satisfaction. Powerful is (cognitive dissonance/double bind/left-right) as much a primal experience of humankind as it's counterpart of powerless.

On balance, as the power increases (for few) at one end of the scale, so the powerlessness (for many) increases at the other. This is a fundamental problem with the power 'equation' - it can never be balanced. However, casting one's mind to the centre point (being in state of mind that is neither powerful nor powerless) one can see the deleterious effect, without taint, that it has on both sides

Our culture is regressing towards feudal baron levels (a 21st century version, thereof) - unless the (feeling powerless) powerless act. Statistically unlikely.

Not entirely sure why, but his puts me in mind of something I've noticed (from a socialogical perspective) recently. It appears to me that as the 'Big Lies' of the Control System grow increasingly frenetic, yet increasingly transparent (even amongst that percentage of the population that normally shy away from such matters but are being force-fed these concepts by social media), individuals are beginning to turn inward for some 'truths' that they can cling to. The sea in which they swim has become has become polluted and they seek safe harbour (for the time being) in a little reef of idyll created by their own cognitively dissonant (I am a part of it, but it's not what I want - it's decided for me, but it's not what I would do) mind.

This further fractures social cohesiveness. (I'm an individual, gaddamnit, and my views count!) - because no one else is on exactly the same page and the myriad of lies can be cherry-picked to conform to the individual worldview. This, in turn, can 'radicalize' each individual member of community, even extending to close-knit units, such as family.

Divisive. Divided. And powerless. Just dandy.

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:55 pm
by guruilla
Powerful is (cognitive dissonance/double bind/left-right) as much a primal experience of humankind as it's counterpart of powerless.


I'm not sure, because surely a feeling of powerlessness precedes any possible feeling of being powerful? (So what is primary is more primal?)

An infant baby can feel safe only insofar as the mother (or someone) responds to its every need; on the first occasion a need is not instantly met, it experiences powerlessness; from that point, I would guess, there develops a need to have power over its mother (environment), and from that need, come all the other insane bids for power which we see in "adult" behaviors. (Grossly simplifying here.)

So if powerlessness is the original (and ultimate, when death comes) experience, then feeling powerful is possible via two means, one legitimate, the other not.

Legitimate power would come from a full, unconditional acceptance of being "cosmically" powerless. (Surrender ~ Islam, hah!) That acceptance would make a person, I would think (& if it was genuine), immune to any kind of social imposition of power on them. "Do our worst, I am already dead, mate."*

Illegitimate power comes from having and wielding power over others; that shifts the focus from what is immeasurably greater than us (life/the universe) to something/someone that happens to be even more powerless than we are. (Children, minorities, etc)

There's much more in that last post, but this just bubbled up so I thought I'd get it down while it was fresh.

Curious that you chose the term "dandy"... (It being to those who know, my late Luciferian brother's metier)

[*edit: not literally immune as in it couldn't happen to them; just that they couldn't be controlled by fear of it happening.]

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:50 am
by Sounder
dodger wrote...
Powerful is (cognitive dissonance/double bind/left-right) as much a primal experience of humankind as it's counterpart of powerless.

guruilla wrote...
I'm not sure, because surely a feeling of powerlessness precedes any possible feeling of being powerful? (So what is primary is more primal?)

An infant baby can feel safe only insofar as the mother (or someone) responds to its every need; on the first occasion a need is not instantly met, it experiences powerlessness; from that point, I would guess, there develops a need to have power over its mother (environment), and from that need, come all the other insane bids for power which we see in "adult" behaviors. (Grossly simplifying here.)

So if powerlessness is the original (and ultimate, when death comes) experience, then feeling powerful is possible via two means, one legitimate, the other not.

Legitimate power would come from a full, unconditional acceptance of being "cosmically" powerless. (Surrender ~ Islam, hah!) That acceptance would make a person, I would think (& if it was genuine), immune to any kind of social imposition of power on them. "Do our worst, I am already dead, mate."*

Illegitimate power comes from having and wielding power over others; that shifts the focus from what is immeasurably greater than us (life/the universe) to something/someone that happens to be even more powerless than we are. (Children, minorities, etc)

There's much more in that last post, but this just bubbled up so I thought I'd get it down while it was fresh.

Curious that you chose the term "dandy"... (It being to those who know, my late Luciferian brother's metier)

[*edit: not literally immune as in it couldn't happen to them; just that they couldn't be controlled by fear of it happening.]



How might goal oriented versus process oriented thinking correspond with use of power versus use of persuasion?

I love the follow on speculations guruilla, but have doubts about the infant safety need response that set the ball rolling. I am the product of a large family for instance, where you were essentially on your own in the middle of instructive chaos. I liked it and found acceptance to be useful strategy, back then and till this day.

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:25 pm
by guruilla
Sounder » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:50 am wrote:I love the follow on speculations guruilla, but have doubts about the infant safety need response that set the ball rolling. I am the product of a large family for instance, where you were essentially on your own in the middle of instructive chaos. I liked it and found acceptance to be useful strategy, back then and till this day.

As an infant baby, you liked & found acceptance being alone in the middle of instructive chaos?
:confused

Re: Mimesis/Liminality/"Je Suis Charlie"/Catharsis-NLP Theat

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:48 pm
by Iamwhomiam
Interesting thread. Thanks for initiating it, guruilla.

Image

However, I do not believe the example Searcher offered as a double bind is accurate:
If you do NOT do A, you will not (survive, be safe, have fun etc)
but if you DO do A, you will not (survive, be safe, have fun etc)


One of the choices in a double bind, I believe, cannot have the same outcome made apparent; one must seem to lead or allow the chooser to believe a better outcome is possible when in fact it's not.

Cognitive dissonance is apparent in comments by Cosby supporters, though the same could be said by his supporters of those calling for his head. I mean, the confusion of Cosby with his character, Clifford Huxtable.

This often raises its ugly head in debates about gun control: "More guns will make us safer."

Edited to delete "you" from first line and replace with "Sounder."
Sorry! I misidentified guruilla with Sounder.

Ok, This is the last edit: misidentified Searcher 08 with guruilla and Sounder, sigh!