Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Obama

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Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Obama

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon May 11, 2015 11:43 am

Secret Tapes of the 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose a Problem for Obama
Ever since the overthrow of Egypt’s elected president, the U.S. administration has tried to avoid the word “coup.” Hard to do that now, but it’s still trying.
Pity the poor dictators! What’s a dedicated bunch of military plotters to do when they learn the elected leader they overthrew may have to go free because they put him in the wrong kind of jail?

If you’re among the conspirators who ousted Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi in 2013, it seems you initiate a flurry of meetings and phone calls and soon reach a solution that relies on forgery and, to make sure a replacement jail looks authentic, construction of a “torture area” inside it.

“Forgery, we do all the time,” brags one member of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces. “We are very good at it.” He might have said the same about torture.

What neither he nor his colleagues realized, however, is that their words were secretly recorded, and eventually tapes of these alleged conversations would be released to the outside world.

Ever since the overthrow of Egypt’s elected president, the U.S. administration has tried to avoid the word “coup.” Hard to do that now, but it’s still trying.
The list of plotters included Deputy Defense Minister Mamdouh Shaheen and Gen. Abbas Kamel, the chief of staff to Gen. Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, the top military commander regarded as the mastermind behind the coup, who is now president of Egypt.

Morsi, a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood movement, which propelled him to victory in the national elections that were forced by the Arab Spring uprising of 2011, was found guilty last month of ordering the arrest and torture of protestors during the unrest that preceded the coup. An Egyptian court sentenced the former president to 20 years in prison; his lawyers pledged an appeal.

The authenticity of the secret tapes has been verified forensically at the request of Morsi’s lawyers by J. P. French Associates, a British company that specializes in voice analysis, the Guardian newspaper has reported. The Egyptian government denies the finding, denouncing the tapes as “fabrications.”

If genuine, the tapes raise embarrassing questions for U.S. President Barack Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry in particular. Besides rigging the legal case against Morsi, the tapes describe the Egyptian military’s role in fomenting the street protests that el-Sisi used to justify Morsi’s removal—a revelation that undercuts the military’s assertion that it took power as part of a popular “revolution,” not a coup.

U.S. law prohibits supplying advanced military equipment to a government that seized power in a coup.

Obama froze U.S. military aid to Egypt immediately after Morsi’s overthrow, but recently reversed course. In a March 31 telephone call, the president informed el-Sisi that the U.S. would be sending $47 million worth of F-16 fighter jets, Harpoon missiles, and other weaponry to Egypt, fortifying Egypt’s role as the second-largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid, behind Israel. Kerry heaped fulsome praise on el-Sisi during a March 13 visit to Egypt, asserting that the new Egyptian president “deserves enormous credit for working to improve the basic business climate in Egypt.”

The Daily Beast asked National Security Council spokesperson Bernadette Meehan if the Obama administration had doubts about the authenticity of the tapes and, if not, how it justified resuming military aid to perpetrators of an apparent military coup. She referred questions about the tapes to the State Department, which did not respond.

As for the aid resumption, Meehan cited a statement the White House released after Obama’s phone call to el-Sisi. In the statement, Obama said the aid will leave the two countries “better positioned to address the shared challenges to U.S. and Egyptian interests in an unstable region” even as “he reiterated U.S. concerns about Egypt’s continued imprisonment of non-violent activists and mass trials.”

As revealed on the tapes, translated for The Daily Beast by an Egyptian democracy activist who requested anonymity for fear of government reprisals, the problem posed by Morsi’s imprisonment was a legal one.

Shaheen, the deputy defense minister, tells the minister of the Interior, Mohamed Ibrahim, that the government prosecutor in the case is worried. In the first hours and days after the coup and his arrest, Morsi’s whereabouts were kept secret. Now it seems he was being detained in a military rather than a civilian jail. This was illegal and, the prosecutor feared, could invalidate the entire case against Morsi.

(As we have seen in the seemingly endless trials of Hosni Mubarak, the president ousted in 2011, the wheels of justice in Egypt grind exceedingly slow in an effort to appear to conform to the rule of law. In the latest turn, on Saturday, Mubarak was sentenced to three years in prison.)

Obama froze U.S. military aid to Egypt immediately after Morsi’s overthrow, but recently reversed course.
Shaheen and Ibrahim, along with Gen. Kamel, allegedly decided to refashion the jail in question, turning it from a military into a civilian one in case the court decided to inspect it.

The jail was located on Navy property, so it needed a new access road and surrounding wall to make it look like a separate facility. To buttress the deception, the officials agreed to bring in old mattresses and newspapers from when Morsi supposedly was imprisoned there.

As veteran bureaucrats, the officials recognized they also had to create a paper trail of other civilians who supposedly were imprisoned there. Kamel, apparently passing along direct orders from el-Sisi, tells the chief of the navy, Adm. Osama el-Guindy, “I was in his office, and he told me to tell you, whatever it costs, whatever it costs, it has to be done right.”

To make this refashioned “civilian jail” truly realistic, the military men further decide that it must have a torture room. Kamel tells Shaheen, “We’ll have, like, an area for beating. If someone were to inspect, it would look like this was a torture area, and some people with marks on their feet, and so on….” The general concludes this remark with a low chuckle as his colleagues agree.

Even more damaging from the standpoint of U.S. law, a separate tape suggests that the Egyptian military helped to bankroll the mass unrest it used to justify ousting Morsi.

According to the Guardian’s translation, Kamel is heard in June 2013—the month leading up to the coup—authorizing withdrawal of a large sum of money for the army’s use from the bank account of Tamarod, the supposedly independent grassroots group that was organizing protests against president Morsi.

The government of the United Arab Emirates had provided the money, indicating further high-level collusion. “Sir,” Kamel tells an aide to el-Sisi, who was then chief of the Egyptian military, “we will need 200 [thousand Egyptian pounds] tomorrow from Tamarod’s account, you know, the part from the UAE, which they transferred.”

Although the secret tapes have gone unremarked in Washington, their existence is well known elsewhere, including in Egypt. The tapes began to be released last November by a TV channel based in Turkey, Mekameleen. The channel’s Islamist sympathies were quickly seized upon by el-Sisi and his supporters as reason enough to discredit the tapes.

But according to a comprehensive account by Guardian reporter Patrick Kingsley, the J. P. French Associates firm, which frequently offers expert testimony in British courtrooms, concluded not only that the tapes were genuine but that the voices they contain are indeed those of senior security officials, and no misleading editing or other falsifications were detected.

If the tapes are in fact genuine, a host of intriguing questions pose themselves. Just who managed to tape these unguarded, incriminating conversations inside the office of one of president el-Sisi’s closest advisers? What additional revelations might be forthcoming from tapes yet to be released? And when, if ever, will the Washington press corps demand answers from the Obama administration about its apparent endorsement of a regime whose highest officials literally joke about torture and brag about forgery?
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Ob

Postby coffin_dodger » Tue May 12, 2015 7:21 pm

Thanks, slad.

My, what a tangled web we have woven for us/ourselves. That could be said of any thread, I suppose.

There I was, thinking that Egypt was 'breaking away'.

I tire of being deceived, confounded and confused.

:snoring:
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Re: Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Ob

Postby Grizzly » Tue May 12, 2015 7:46 pm

I tire of being deceived, confounded and confused.


I pasted that nearly a decade ago, I'm not powerless, but I'm the only thing I can change. That has become quite clear.... The Revolution starts, here.
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Re: Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Ob

Postby Morty » Tue May 12, 2015 10:27 pm

U.S. law prohibits supplying advanced military equipment to a government that seized power in a coup.


Bwahahaha.

Embarrassing as it might be that the US has continued sending money Egypts way, surely it's even more embarrassing in cases where the US itself has helped foment the coup, and then proceeds to supply advanced military equipment to the newly installed regime?

I was reading somewhere a while ago that there was a split amongst the neocons over whether Obama should recommence military aid to Egypt. Iirc Nulands hubby Kagan argued for recommencement, and whatshisface..Kristol?.. argued against, but I may be wrong. I was wrong - Kagan was against, Kristol was for continued funding. Probably Kagan is just miffed that it wasn't a coup organised by him.
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Re: Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Ob

Postby justdrew » Wed May 13, 2015 1:17 am

yeah, except... the 'coup' can also be seen as secular Egyptian society putting down a theocratic coup. So personally, I'm in favor of morsi's removal. I hope to fuck we do the same thing if it comes to that in this country.
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Re: Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Ob

Postby Elvis » Wed May 13, 2015 1:42 am

justdrew » Tue May 12, 2015 10:17 pm wrote:yeah, except... the 'coup' can also be seen as secular Egyptian society putting down a theocratic coup. So personally, I'm in favor of morsi's removal. I hope to fuck we do the same thing if it comes to that in this country.


I agree with justdrew there; Morty, did you see AlicetheKurious' epic "Decoding the Middle East" post?:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38933

It's certainly worth a read. My impression, despite Western news media's strenuous efforts to get to believe otherwise, is that the US wanted Morsi in power -- not the generals, whose 'coup' fouled up the Empire's plans to keep Egypt under its thumb. As for selling arms to Egypt, one can guess that a lot of orders would have to be canceled (bad for business), and anyway, part & parcel of US Mideast policy seems to be arming everyone to the teeth (good for business).
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Re: Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Ob

Postby Occult Means Hidden » Wed May 13, 2015 3:59 am

justdrew wrote:yeah, except... the 'coup' can also be seen as secular Egyptian society putting down a theocratic coup. So personally, I'm in favor of morsi's removal. I hope to fuck we do the same thing if it comes to that in this country.


The thing is, is that often governorship has the effect of moderation on one's views. There are countless instances when so-called radicals achieve power, then quickly learn some value of compromise, for better or worse. All indications were that Morsi was leaning moderate. His selection as the party's leader even being an understanding by the more vocal of the radicals that a softer approach was needed. Morsi was the best chance to put Israel, Saudi Arabia and the U.S. Intelligence apparatus in check. Now there is no chance of it.

Further, never, never support the idea of a military coup and dictatorship rightly taking power from a fragile and democratically elected government, no matter how imperfect it may be. Imperfections of such are self corrected by further elections over time.
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Re: Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Ob

Postby Occult Means Hidden » Wed May 13, 2015 4:07 am

Elvis » Wed May 13, 2015 5:42 am wrote:[

It's certainly worth a read. My impression, despite Western news media's strenuous efforts to get to believe otherwise, is that the US wanted Morsi in power -- not the generals, whose 'coup' fouled up the Empire's plans to keep Egypt under its thumb. As for selling arms to Egypt, one can guess that a lot of orders would have to be canceled (bad for business), and anyway, part & parcel of US Mideast policy seems to be arming everyone to the teeth (good for business).


This can't be so. Again, Morsi represented the greatest threat to Isreali, Saudi and American interests than anyone associated with the current regime. That can't really be disputed. The talk after morsi's election was for a reversal in foreign policy which represented a threat to the current powers.
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Re: Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Ob

Postby kool maudit » Wed May 13, 2015 4:34 am

oh yes - the arab spring! what a glorious time for democracy that was and then wasn't. but who could have foreseen anything? nobody.

also re: coups we could talk kiev. the obama admin is a much stealthier and smoother thing than was the bush one. it doesn't rile up the media classes as much. i think a lot of them would like to have a beer with him.

why was there ever a bush? obama works a lot better.
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Re: Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Ob

Postby Morty » Wed May 13, 2015 5:33 am

Elvis wrote:I agree with justdrew there; Morty, did you see AlicetheKurious' epic "Decoding the Middle East" post?


Yes, I read that post with interest. I don't disagree with either of you - coups can be good things, when they're [genuinely] popular, for example, which Alice has me convinced is what Sisi's path to power was. I just thought it was quaint that some law against doing something was suggested as a reason why the US might be forced into not doing something. That's not the way America likes to do international relations!
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Re: Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Ob

Postby AlicetheKurious » Thu May 14, 2015 3:16 pm

Occult Means Hidden wrote:All indications were that Morsi was leaning moderate. His selection as the party's leader even being an understanding by the more vocal of the radicals that a softer approach was needed. Morsi was the best chance to put Israel, Saudi Arabia and the U.S. Intelligence apparatus in check. Now there is no chance of it.


I had to read that twice. Seriously? Morsi the long-time US intelligence asset? Whose own wife, when he was arrested, publicly threatened to "expose" how much the US owes her and her husband, and whose own son claimed that his father has enough damning evidence on the US President himself to send Obama to prison in the US, in an attempt to blackmail the US into standing by their man? Who sucked up to Israel in such a disgusting display of sycophancy the entire nation was revolted? So, what are all these "indications"?

As for whether Americans consider our revolution to be a "coup" or not, that's up to them. The Egyptian people know it was their revolution, and they're still deeply, devoutly grateful it succeeded. President Sisi has more popular support than any US president has had in recent memory, which is especially amazing given the incredible difficulties our country is facing, which would have caused huge unrest if he didn't enjoy enormous public trust. The US tried to stop weapons sales to punish Egypt for getting rid of the Brotherhood, but Egypt just turned around and bought far more advanced weapons from other countries, including Russia, France and China, waaay more advanced than anything the US ever made available. This is what you're suggesting Israel wants? Please. (And yes, do read the part in my "Decoding the Middle East" about Israel's plan for Sinai, which has been thwarted.)
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Re: Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Ob

Postby Occult Means Hidden » Sat May 16, 2015 5:56 am

You deserve a lengthy response, which I will provide to you after my wedding celebrations end later this week. In the meantime, kind regards.
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Re: Secret Tapes of 2013 Egypt Coup Plot Pose Problem for Ob

Postby Occult Means Hidden » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:48 pm

First, i'm a foreigner and i'm anonymous so I will be seen to have less credibility than yourself on this topic by some on this board. Second, my response will not be too lengthy although I apologize for the delay.

I had to read that twice. Seriously? Morsi the long-time US intelligence asset?


This is a really odd thing to accuse Morsi of, considering al-Sisi's background. A graduate of the U.S. Army War College and a director of Egyptain military intelligence during Mubarack's reign, al-Sisi was firmly within the apparatus during the CIA extraordinary rendition program that saw many tortured and killed in Egypt on behalf of the CIA. The atrocities conducted by Egyptain intel cannot be denied during this period.

Whose own wife, when he was arrested, publicly threatened to "expose" how much the US owes her and her husband, and whose own son claimed that his father has enough damning evidence on the US President himself to send Obama to prison in the US, in an attempt to blackmail the US into standing by their man?


Talk of dubious or desperate origin. Morsi lives to tell the tale. Yet no tale is told.


Who sucked up to Israel in such a disgusting display of sycophancy the entire nation was revolted? So, what are all these "indications"?


Again, a very odd accusation. Is this when he called Jews, "the sons of apes and pigs"? The international affairs literature was replete with a stark coldening of relations with Israel and a warming of relations with Iran. We've seen the very opposite by al-Sisi. I'm not even going to bother sourcing this. It's very well documented.

As for whether Americans consider our revolution to be a "coup" or not, that's up to them. The Egyptian people know it was their revolution, and they're still deeply, devoutly grateful it succeeded.


No need to put "coup" in quotations. It was a coup of the nation's first democratically elected president by the Egyptain military. Was the revolution meant to outlaw the Muslim Brotherhood or was it to remove Mubarak? Or was it to enact democracy? Revolution fatigue sets in when years of activism and organization fizzle to nothing. Some are optomists and prefer to imagine their struggle wasn't in vain. I'm not sure the installation of a dictatorship is the revolution the Egyptain people were struggling for.

The US tried to stop weapons sales to punish Egypt for getting rid of the Brotherhood, but Egypt just turned around and bought far more advanced weapons from other countries, including Russia, France and China, waaay more advanced than anything the US ever made available.


Not quite. The US flirted with the idea of stopping weapon sales upon Morsi's installation. When sales were curtailed, it was for a short time to satisfy domestic political concerns. Length and depth of weapon sale freeze was not significant and not for the explicit reasons you allege. Yes, upon Morsi's removal the U.S. stopped a sale of weapons due to the chaos on the ground. How much in weapons? Four fighter jets. Meanwhile the U.S. continued to siphon $1.5 billion in aid to Egypt without much concern for Morsi's removal.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/world ... .html?_r=0


This is what you're suggesting Israel wants? Please. (And yes, do read the part in my "Decoding the Middle East" about Israel's plan for Sinai, which has been thwarted.)


Yes, Israel would rather have al-Sisi in power. Your theory about Sinai is based on assumption that i'm not convinced is true. But that's for another thread.
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