Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Cordelia » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:09 pm

1982 New York Times article written 4 months before The Village Voice article, 'Jerzy Kosinski's Tainted Words', accused him of fraud and plagiarism.

BEING JERZY KOSINSKI


Published: February 21, 1982

"Many of Jerzy Kosinski's friends are stars - some of them, like Warren Beatty and Tony Bennett, are in show business; some, like Zbigniew Brzezinski and Henry Kissinger, are in global politics, and some, inevitably, are in journalism and television - such as Mike Wallace, at whose home I first met Kosinski about six years ago. Encouraged by Wallace, Kosinski was telling parts of the story of his life that night. Wallace, no mean master of theatrics himself, knew a spellbinder when he had one at his dinner table. And after I'd listened, enthralled, for several hours, I knew that Kosinski was not only a vintage raconteur, but, probably, the ultimate survivor.

I'm a connoisseur of survivors and have studied them as writers, actors, doctors, cops. And while some of them earn more money, have attained greater eminence or have settled into more traditional life styles than Kosinski, none, I think, had more to endure and overcome. None were damaged, both psychically and physically, as Kosinski was, or are as candid about it - starkly in his fiction, wittily in the drawing room."

Whether or not you admire Kosinski's generally harsh but widely read novels, you have to honor the man for the dangers he has passed, for his rage to live.

As a child of the Holocaust, he routinely held hands with death. A hostage of postwar Communism in Poland, he grew into an intellectual guerrilla and contrived his escape to the United States - where he taught himself English. Awaiting publication of his eighth novel, ''Pinball,'' on March 1, he recently - of all things -made a striking acting debut as the Bolshevik hatchet-man, Zinoviev, in ''Reds,'' the costly film spectacle brought forth by Warren Beatty.

Since arriving in New York in 1957 at the age of 24, a friendless, penniless immigrant, he has published 10 books - the first two were nonfiction works of political science. He arrived a few days before Christmas in an ill-cut coat of wolf's fur, clever enough to know that jars of black caviar were, for their small size, the most nourishing food he could steal from a neighborhood grocery that happened, also, to carry Polish mushrooms (too bulky to steal). Sustained, he quickly went on to learn the language of his new home, work at odd jobs, obtain his American Ph. D., begin a writing career, and - the dream of many a handsome young immigrant - meet and marry a rich American widow..........."

http://www.nytimes.com/1982/02/21/magaz ... wanted=all
User avatar
Cordelia
 
Posts: 3697
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: USA
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:34 pm

I'd rather let Cohen have the last word:

http://cohencentric.com/2015/03/23/abou ... -la-manic/
"We come from France"
User avatar
lunarmoth
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:17 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Cordelia » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:20 am

^^^
:thumbsup .........and the last dance?

User avatar
Cordelia
 
Posts: 3697
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: USA
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:14 pm

###All smiles###
"We come from France"
User avatar
lunarmoth
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:17 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Mon May 16, 2016 2:08 pm

Has anyone read the latest Miles Mathis piece, GAME OF FAKES, which purports to expose David Bowie (and Prince), and suggests Bowie's early lyrics were ghostwritten by Leonard Cohen? Mathis is his usual flighty, self-aggrandizing self but a couple of things did jump out at me:

(1) without crediting either Jasun Horsley or RI or myself, Mathis is now referring to Cohen as an 'intelligence' operative. I'm tempted to mention that this is a rumour, and I'm the principal source. I think there's plenty of evidence for it, but no one has made an air-tight case so far, yet it seems to be making its way into the public arena via the back door.

(2) Mathis does make an interesting statement about the world of contemporary poetry and I agree with what he says about journals being "filled with garbage poetry, while the real poets were hired by Intelligence. Rhyming and meter and big subject matter were disallowed in the journals" This is actually true. Back in the late sixties when Cohen was a well-known poet in Canada, a new gang arrived on the scene and led a campaign to destroy "theme" in poetry. This aggressive (and in retrospect, well organized) new movement encouraged trivial experimentation and while its practitioners swarmed onto campuses and built networks and careers, Cohen publicly wandered off into "intelligence work."

But Mathis doesn't really "know" this - he's just riffing on an idea he probably found right here. In fact, a while back in his piece attacking Dylan as a "fake", he claimed Cohen was the Real Thing as well as the modest genius who secretly penned the lyrics to Dylan's "Shelter from the Storm."

Although it's possible, it's also possible that Dylan and Bowie imitated Cohen. It's also ironic that to be perceived as genuine by Miles Mathis, you have to be an operative.
"We come from France"
User avatar
lunarmoth
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:17 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Mon May 16, 2016 2:28 pm

lunarmoth » Mon May 16, 2016 1:08 pm wrote:Has anyone read the latest Miles Mathis piece, GAME OF FAKES, which purports to expose David Bowie (and Prince), and suggests Bowie's early lyrics were ghostwritten by Leonard Cohen? Mathis is his usual flighty, self-aggrandizing self but a couple of things did jump out at me:

(1) without crediting either Jasun Horsley or RI or myself, Mathis is now referring to Cohen as an 'intelligence' operative. I'm tempted to mention that this is a rumour, and I'm the principal source. I think there's plenty of evidence for it, but no one has made an air-tight case so far, yet it seems to be making its way into the public arena via the back door.

(2) Mathis does make an interesting statement about the world of contemporary poetry and I agree with what he says about journals being "filled with garbage poetry, while the real poets were hired by Intelligence. Rhyming and meter and big subject matter were disallowed in the journals" This is actually true. Back in the late sixties when Cohen was a well-known poet in Canada, a new gang arrived on the scene and led a campaign to destroy "theme" in poetry. This aggressive (and in retrospect, well organized) new movement encouraged trivial experimentation and while its practitioners swarmed onto campuses and built networks and careers, Cohen publicly wandered off into "intelligence work."

But Mathis doesn't really "know" this - he's just riffing on an idea he probably found right here. In fact, a while back in his piece attacking Dylan as a "fake", he claimed Cohen was the Real Thing as well as the modest genius who secretly penned the lyrics to Dylan's "Shelter from the Storm."
Although it's possible, it's also possible that Dylan and Bowie imitated Cohen. It's also ironic that to be perceived as genuine by Miles Mathis, you have to be an operative.


Image
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Mon May 16, 2016 8:04 pm

Who bolded that, I wonder? it was not I. But if you'd like to reopen this discussion, go ahead.

It's a "rumour" as far as the publishing world is concerned. That doesn't make it 'false' - just "unproven" or "controversial". No more unproven, however, than many other theories floating around out there -- and in time you will see the proof as the truth about intelligence involvement in pop culture permeates our understanding.

I look forward to seeing what Mathis will make of it, brekin, since he has such high regard for Cohen. And so do I, as we all continue to mature into grownups and slowly let go of our need for daddies and Superheros.

Beware the internet grapevine and rumour mill.
"We come from France"
User avatar
lunarmoth
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:17 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Tue May 17, 2016 1:45 pm

lunarmoth wrote:Who bolded that, I wonder? it was not I. But if you'd like to reopen this discussion, go ahead.

It's a "rumour" as far as the publishing world is concerned. That doesn't make it 'false' - just "unproven" or "controversial". No more unproven, however, than many other theories floating around out there -- and in time you will see the proof as the truth about intelligence involvement in pop culture permeates our understanding.

I look forward to seeing what Mathis will make of it, brekin, since he has such high regard for Cohen. And so do I, as we all continue to mature into grownups and slowly let go of our need for daddies and Superheros.

Beware the internet grapevine and rumour mill.


Our lady of solitude, it was I who bolded the text. You do that by highlighting the text in a post and then click the B button to draw attention to what you are responding to.

I just find it funny, more than a little wacky making for me, that you are referring to this long chain of sorrow as just a "rumor" now. And are also surprised at others bottling and making wine from the internet grapevine and rumor mill that you were supplying the grapes to.

But at least we now agree that it is a rumor, if not completely what the definition of a rumor is.

ru·mor
noun
1.
a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth.
"they were investigating rumors of a massacre"
synonyms: gossip, hearsay, talk, tittle-tattle, speculation,
verb
1.
be circulated as an unverified account.
"it's rumored that he lives on a houseboat"
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue May 17, 2016 4:15 pm

Thanks for that bold response. I'll try that little trick next time.

To clarify: In this new article, GAME OF FAKES, Mathis is repeating information that he very likely took from Jasun Horsley, since a few months ago Mathis was contrasting Cohen ("the real thing") to Dylan ("the fake"). And the original source (the writer of the memoir-in-progress) is me, moi, aka our lady of solitude.

Mathis seems to accept the 'operative' label but doesn't credit the source. This is equivalent to repeating a 'rumour' -- because for whatever reason, Mathis chooses not to substantiate it.

'Rumors of a massacre' have often resulted in discovery of real bodies. Rumors are not 'lies' -- just uninvestigated facts. My memoir is not based on 'rumors' but personal experiences and observations woven into a narrative or 'long chain of sorrow'. Pattern recognition is what drives narrative and readers are welcome to read patterns into a narrative.

However if you extract a conclusion from it (like "Leonard Cohen worked for intelligence") without attributing it to a source, you're spreading a rumor. And this is what Mathis is doing, much of the time. I'm just pointing out that out.

I haven't come out and said "Leonard Cohen is an operative" -- guruilla came up with that bold title. I have brought up facts and examples of things he has done that strongly suggest it. These are mainly matters of public record, and some are from personal experiences and memories. guruilla added a ? to signify that this is a discussion, not an accusation.

I guess I wonder why Mathis seems so willing to embrace this statement as a fact. Probably because it supports his view that just about everyone, including Elvis, is an agent.

Better an agent than a 'fake'.
Last edited by lunarmoth on Tue May 17, 2016 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We come from France"
User avatar
lunarmoth
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:17 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Tue May 17, 2016 4:48 pm

lunarmoth » Tue May 17, 2016 3:15 pm wrote:Thanks for that bold response. I'll try that little trick next time.

To clarify: In this new article, GAME OF FAKES, Mathis is repeating information that he very likely took from Jasun Horsley, since a few months ago Mathis was contrasting Cohen ("the real thing") to Dylan ("the fake"). And the original source (the writer of the memoir-in-progress) is me, moi, aka our lady of solitude.
Mathis seems to accept the 'operative' label but doesn't credit the source. This is equivalent to repeating a 'rumour' -- because for whatever reason, Mathis chooses not to attribute it to a source.
'Rumors of a massacre' have often resulted in discovery of real bodies. Rumors are not 'lies' -- just uninvestigated facts. My memoir is not based on 'rumors' but personal experiences and observations woven into a narrative or 'long chain of sorrow'. Pattern recognition is what drives narrative and readers are welcome to read patterns into a narrative.

However if you extract a conclusion from it (like "Leonard Cohen worked for intelligence") without attributing it to a source, you're spreading a rumor. And this is what Mathis is doing, much of the time. I'm just pointing out that out.
I haven't come out and said "Leonard Cohen is an operative" -- guruilla came up with that bold title. I have brought up facts and examples of things he has done that strongly suggest it. These are mainly matters of public record, and some are from personal experiences and memories. guruilla added a ? to signify that this is a discussion, not an accusation.

I guess I wonder why Mathis seems so willing to embrace this statement as a fact. Probably because it supports his view that just about everyone, including Elvis, is an agent.
Better an agent than a 'fake'.


I hear you. I'm just thinking that you may want to steel yourself as this will probably become a more common occurrence. As you know, some patterns are more compelling, reproducible and consumable, and very few people care to know who made the template.

Image
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Cordelia » Wed May 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Why not ask Mathis himself? He's got a contact page and seems like an approachable kind of guy. A link to the essay in question: http://mileswmathis.com/game.pdf He packs a LOT of theories in 10 pages; for me (as usual) many are interesting (g.o.t., Martin & vista, Bowie's lyrics, his wife's & Prince's background in a continuation of McGowan-inspired familial links) and many (everyone's an agent and their deaths are all faked) are :wallhead:

Mathis himself is probably an operative. I wish he'd write an essay with Miles Mathis as his subject--that could be an interesting and self absorbing piece.
User avatar
Cordelia
 
Posts: 3697
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: USA
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Wed May 18, 2016 2:29 pm

I thought the Bowie/Prince article was pretty terrible, but his recent piece on Tiger Woods was solid.

Link here: http://mileswmathis.com/tiger.pdf
User avatar
Agent Orange Cooper
 
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:44 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Wed May 18, 2016 4:32 pm

Agent Orange Cooper wrote:I thought the Bowie/Prince article was pretty terrible, but his recent piece on Tiger Woods was solid.

Link here: http://mileswmathis.com/tiger.pdf


Good Lord, I can only imagine the Bowie/Prince piece then. :starz:

We are told he retired from the military in 1974, but he was only 42. Even that date is a clue, since 74 is 47 reversed. 1947
was year one of the CIA, and the spooks like to use the number 74 as a marker as well.


Tiger's mother is also a question mark, with her genealogy being scrubbed. One of her parents was
half-Dutch, and her father Vit Punsawad owned both a tin mine and a fleet of busses in Bangkok* . So
it was probably he who was half-Dutch. Since he was apparently very wealthy and an Industrialist, we
have to ask if he might have been Jewish.


Also suspicious are Tiger's early endorsement deals. Upon joining the tour—and before entering much
less winning a single tournament—Tiger already had a $40 million deal with Nike and a $20 million
deal with Titleist. It is admitted that these were the largest endorsement contracts in the history of
golf, and among the largest in the history of sports, for an athlete with no professional history.


We have seen that project Tiger Woods started in 1974,when Earl allegedly retired from Intelligence. Earl died at age 74 in 2006. 2 + 6 = 8, the favorite
number of Intel. He died on May 3. 5 + 3 = 8. In 1995, he predicted Tiger would win 14 majors.
How did he know that? How many majors has Tiger won as of 2016? Fourteen.


So why was Elin chosen? Hold onto your hat. It may be because she is a twin. She has a twin sister,
Josephin. When the Parneviks brought Elin to the US to be their nanny, they brought Josephin as well.
We have seen in many previous papers that Intel loves twins.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Wed May 18, 2016 4:48 pm

Aside from the Jewish thing (which sounds like a bad joke) and the lazy numerology I don't really see what's wrong with any of that?
User avatar
Agent Orange Cooper
 
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:44 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Wed May 18, 2016 6:12 pm

@ brekin: I'm just thinking that you may want to steel yourself as this will probably become a more common occurrence. As you know, some patterns are more compelling, reproducible and consumable, and very few people care to know who made the template.

Maybe not "steel myself" but I'd welcome a discussion, especially as we're really balancing one man's reputation against a world of hurt and deception, aren't we? In a way, I'm grateful to Mathis for spray-painting the whole arena -- that way nobody gets too wounded in the general mayhem. If this is the way the music business was set up, after all, there's nothing to fear and everything to gain from disclosure.

@ Cordelia: good idea.. let me think about that.
"We come from France"
User avatar
lunarmoth
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:17 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 48 guests