Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

[brekin]

brekin wrote:

" If someone is looking for total consensus or the space to post about events and claims without the need to articulate or even accept some modicum of the need for evidence, however, this probably isn't the place to do so. There are many forums to post about such topics where whatever you post will be accepted as fact. I'd even say this thread has even been pretty insulated from most reality tests because of principal players participation and the desire to respect their personal experience, to say nothing of the ingrained RI boosterism of conspiracy theory before any exploration of conspiracy fact."

lunarmoth wrote:
Is this your fundamental objection to this thread, brekin? That I, or we, have not posted enough evidence to support -- what exactly? Those opening excerpts from my website and self-published memoir that guruilla posted on August 24 without first asking my permission? and that I didn't even see till some time later, as I had to wait over a week to get approved to join RI, by which time guruilla and I had finished the podcast interviews. By then, the discussion here was well under way (without any input from me, of course, since I wasn't a member yet, and was only vaguely acquainted with RI which has its own special culture apparently and certain rules and protocols which I have not learned-- ) ?

By the time I was allowed to post here, as a registered user, it was October 4 and the discussion was in its fourth week and already covered 6 pages. I had just come off a 16-day live-in home care shift with a 76 year old airplane pilot with early dementia, and had exactly one day free before beginning a second two-week 24/7 gig living with a batty lady from France with advanced dementia. That means, a month of isolation and being physically and emotionally present in someone else's home. This is what I do nowadays, in both official languages. You should try it sometime. In addition, at work I often had little to no internet therefore no way to keep up with the discussion. Also during that period guruilla -- probably in an attempt to defend my credibility -- asked me for a "timeline" which I wrote on the couch while my client occasionally napped.

Bottom line, I never caught up. Guruilla was doing a great job of moderating and I decided to be non interventionist since it was my story that was being talked about and I was hungry for feedback, negative and positive. Unfortunately, even now, I have not had time to process the feedback, or make a list of the unanswered objections because in addition to taking care of old people, I also coach writers and edit their books. Which often amounts to being their therapist.

I think at some point I jumped in to defend Henry Makow and the response was so hostile. It reminded me of the time, when i was 12, I put on my figure skates and went down to the local rink and tried skating with the boys. Someone even gave me a hockey stick, but within 30 seconds I was shoved into the boards from behind, and left in the corner to pick myself off the ice and go home. I decided that was enough. No more hockey for me. I

So that's where things stand. I'll gladly answer any of your questions if you will lay them out for me in some kind of order. Additionally, I would ask brekin: Why do you doubt my story? Do you think I would make this stuff up? What makes you believe none of this happened, or that I hallucinated it, for revenge because I was 'scorned'? Does that strike you as a rational explanation for all this material?

I have a few hours to spare. Ask me anything.

How fortunate you freed up the time to correct all my misinterpretations and misunderstandings and strawman arguments. Shall we begin?

The title of the thread is Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material) and that is where my interests lie i.e. is LC an operative or involved in some larger organized elite conspiracy. From what I've gathered from reading 1/3 of your memoir and what has been posted here, you think LC was subject to MKULTRA type, or actual, experiments at McGill. But from what I can tell you are taking that from the fact he was a student at McGuill and a statement he made to you that he said he took acid once in a flotation tank and said he enjoyed it (something about it was like swimming with the dolphins? if I remember correctly? From what I've read of MKULTRA it doesn't sound enjoyable). And also from another Montreal poet who supposedly had records of numerous Montreal figures who were there as children, but there is no record of him, or you, brought forth substantiating that. We've already covered "the photo" in depth, agreeing it is a non-artifact. The snuff film episode, from a anonymous source, has numerous logical holes and is basically a good yarn. So...

Question 1. Do you have anything other than the above substantiating or outlining that LC actually underwent MKULTRA type experiments at McGuill?
Question 2. If LC did undergo such experiments, what purpose did they play later in his life? For example, was he controlled by others in management, performance, or as a spokesman? What are some examples of this? The Cuba and Israel episodes are interesting, but hardly conclusive of anything and the airport episode, you have to admit is just a anecdote that doesn't really prove anything.
Question 3. If LC's career has been manufactured, or exploited for a deeper agenda, to what end has it been used? Do you think it has been successful?
Question 4. What other celebrities or famous figures do you believe are in the same conspiratorial orbit as LC?
Question 5. What is the end game? What does Mission Accomplished look like for Field Commander Cohen?

I don't doubt LC has behaved manipulative and erratically to others in the past and has screwed around, taken drugs, been a control freak, a holier than thou false saint, a cold hearted opportunist, a sad eyed narcissistic womanizer, basically a poet-douche, born to the manor, silver spoon folk-rock icon, but what I haven't seen so far, is any evidence he's a Manchurian-type candidate. The problems with his ex-manager Lynch are problematic but reading both sides of the account I haven't been swayed. And if LC is an minor demon in service to The Grand Conspiracy wouldn't his manager of 20 years have to be complicit also?

I don't doubt you were somehow involved in LC world to some degree, but I'm just not seeing anything substantiating he's involved in anything grand conspiracy related.

[lunarmoth]

@ tabitsbo

I've only recounted a small slice of Ken Hertz here. He was a literary protege of Irving Layton, Leonard Cohen's friend and mentor.
He became a poet and small press publisher, ran a magazine called Ingluvin, and later a poetry vanity press whose name I forget. When i met him in 1975 he was 30 but looked much older. He was bald and bearded with a strangely blank and expressionless face, possibly an early sign of the Parkinsonian illness that killed him at 50. In 1975 he lived in a $70 a month apartment behind an old tombstone factory. Ken's younger brother worked for the Privy Council in Ottawa. Ken's wife Evelyn was a Hungarian holocaust survivor who had been in Auschwitz at age 3 and had a stroke at 37 after which she had to relearn to speak.

Ken told me Irving taught him more than poetry. Irving had a circle of young poets (including Seymour Mayne, Henry Moscovitch and Avi Boxer). Seymour Mayne is probably alive, the others are not
There was a secretive "religious" dimension to this group which was connected to a cult in NY, probably the Lubavitchers. Both Ken and Boxer dabbled in black magic and recruited young women into their private cults. Leonard was also part of that although by then (1970s) he was busy with his international career. Ken told me once "Irving Layton gave us fire" in a way that made it clear he meant some kind of spiritual transmission. Ken also espoused beliefs that were Sabbatean in nature. He was a materialist who absolutely believed that chemistry eg brain chemistry determined consciousness.

Both Ken and his mother were diagnosed and treated at the Allan Memorial for schizophrenia. Ken told me at least once that he used to see Leonard Cohen in the hallways there - implying they were part of a small secretive circle. Leonard did not deny this, and told me "Ken has never been well."

Leonard introduced me to Henry Moscovitch one day in his kitchen in the fall of 1993. It was the same day Ramblin Jack Elliot drove into town and parked his humungous RV next to Portuguese Park which faced Leonard's house on rue Vallieres. Henry was similar to Ken, only crazier and also demonstrated his psychic powers for Leonard and me at the kitchen table. Henry had thrown himself off a bridge on a busy expressway about 20 years earlier after his voices told him to do it. He was large and jovial and seemed to love Leonard.

[lunarmoth]

brekin wrote:

" If someone is looking for total consensus or the space to post about events and claims without the need to articulate or even accept some modicum of the need for evidence, however, this probably isn't the place to do so. There are many forums to post about such topics where whatever you post will be accepted as fact. I'd even say this thread has even been pretty insulated from most reality tests because of principal players participation and the desire to respect their personal experience, to say nothing of the ingrained RI boosterism of conspiracy theory before any exploration of conspiracy fact."

lunarmoth wrote:
Is this your fundamental objection to this thread, brekin? That I, or we, have not posted enough evidence to support -- what exactly? Those opening excerpts from my website and self-published memoir that guruilla posted on August 24 without first asking my permission? and that I didn't even see till some time later, as I had to wait over a week to get approved to join RI, by which time guruilla and I had finished the podcast interviews. By then, the discussion here was well under way (without any input from me, of course, since I wasn't a member yet, and was only vaguely acquainted with RI which has its own special culture apparently and certain rules and protocols which I have not learned-- ) ?

By the time I was allowed to post here, as a registered user, it was October 4 and the discussion was in its fourth week and already covered 6 pages. I had just come off a 16-day live-in home care shift with a 76 year old airplane pilot with early dementia, and had exactly one day free before beginning a second two-week 24/7 gig living with a batty lady from France with advanced dementia. That means, a month of isolation and being physically and emotionally present in someone else's home. This is what I do nowadays, in both official languages. You should try it sometime. In addition, at work I often had little to no internet therefore no way to keep up with the discussion. Also during that period guruilla -- probably in an attempt to defend my credibility -- asked me for a "timeline" which I wrote on the couch while my client occasionally napped.

Bottom line, I never caught up. Guruilla was doing a great job of moderating and I decided to be non interventionist since it was my story that was being talked about and I was hungry for feedback, negative and positive. Unfortunately, even now, I have not had time to process the feedback, or make a list of the unanswered objections because in addition to taking care of old people, I also coach writers and edit their books. Which often amounts to being their therapist.

I think at some point I jumped in to defend Henry Makow and the response was so hostile. It reminded me of the time, when i was 12, I put on my figure skates and went down to the local rink and tried skating with the boys. Someone even gave me a hockey stick, but within 30 seconds I was shoved into the boards from behind, and left in the corner to pick myself off the ice and go home. I decided that was enough. No more hockey for me. I

So that's where things stand. I'll gladly answer any of your questions if you will lay them out for me in some kind of order. Additionally, I would ask brekin: Why do you doubt my story? Do you think I would make this stuff up? What makes you believe none of this happened, or that I hallucinated it, for revenge because I was 'scorned'? Does that strike you as a rational explanation for all this material?

I have a few hours to spare. Ask me anything.

How fortunate you freed up the time to correct all my misinterpretations and misunderstandings and strawman arguments. Shall we begin?

The title of the thread is Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material) and that is where my interests lie i.e. is LC an operative or involved in some larger organized elite conspiracy. From what I've gathered from reading 1/3 of your memoir and what has been posted here, you think LC was subject to MKULTRA type, or actual, experiments at McGill. But from what I can tell you are taking that from the fact he was a student at McGuill and a statement he made to you that he said he took acid once in a flotation tank and said he enjoyed it (something about it was like swimming with the dolphins? if I remember correctly? From what I've read of MKULTRA it doesn't sound enjoyable). And also from another Montreal poet who supposedly had records of numerous Montreal figures who were there as children, but there is no record of him, or you, brought forth substantiating that. We've already covered "the photo" in depth, agreeing it is a non-artifact. The snuff film episode, from a anonymous source, has numerous logical holes and is basically a good yarn. So...

ALL RECORDS OF MKULTRA EXPERIMENTS ON CHILDREN CARRIED OUT FROM 1953-64 WERE DESTROYED IN 1973 BY CIA DIRECTOR RICHARD HELMS.

THE FILES AT MCGILL BEGAN BEING DESTROYED AFTER 1978. KEN HERTZ FOUND A BATCH THAT HAD NOT YET BEEN DESTROYED. THE PROCESS OF LOCATING, IDENTIFYING, AND SHREDDING THESE FILES TOOK YEARS. MCGILL'S LEGAL FIRM ADVISED THEM ON THIS DELICATE PROCESS. I MET A MALE NURSE WHO WAS EMPLOYED FROM 1978 to 1980 DESTROYING THESE FILES AND CARTING THEM TO THE DUMPSTERS. THESE.FILES INCLUDED RECORDS OF BIRTHS, ABORTIONS AND ADOPTIONS DURING THE MKULTRA YEARS. THERE WAS A HUGE CHILD TRAFFICKING BUSINESS OPERATING AT THAT TIME IN MONTREAL, SOME OF WHICH INVOLVED MILITARY ADOPTIONS FOR MIND CONTROL EXPERIMENTS

I WAS TOLD BY THE ETHICS OFFICER AT MCGILL IN 2004 THAT ALL RECORDS OF LSD EXPERIMENTS ON CHILDREN AT MCGILL WERE KNOWN BY MANY STAFF TO HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.

Question 1. Do you have anything other than the above substantiating or outlining that LC actually underwent MKULTRA type experiments at McGuill?

PLEASE READ MY BLOG AND OTHER WRITING. IT SEEMS YOU ARE TRYING TO BUILD A CASE TO DISCREDIT THIS THREAD, PERHAPS BECAUSE YOU'RE ACTUALLY WORRIED ABOUT LEGAL REPERCUSSIONS TO THIS BLOG. I DONT THINK THIS IS THE APPROPRIATE VENUE TO LIST ALL THE EVIDENCE.

I'M GOING TO RAISE THIS WITH GURUILLA AND GET HIS OPINION.

Question 2. If LC did undergo such experiments, what purpose did they play later in his life? For example, was he controlled by others in management, performance, or as a spokesman? What are some examples of this? The Cuba and Israel episodes are interesting, but hardly conclusive of anything and the airport episode, you have to admit is just a anecdote that doesn't really prove anything.

SEE ABOVE AND READ WHAT I'VE WRITTEN. NOT JUST A THIRD OF IT.

Question 3. If LC's career has been manufactured, or exploited for a deeper agenda, to what end has it been used? Do you think it has been successful?

THATS A SUBJECT I'LL TAKE UP WHEN I EXPAND AND REVISE THE MAN NEXT DOOR. THANKS.

Question 4. What other celebrities or famous figures do you believe are in the same conspiratorial orbit as LC?

NO COMMENT. I HAVE NEVER SPOKEN OF A "CONSPIRATORIAL ORBIT" AND I THINK THAT'S A CHILDISH WAY TO PUT IT

Question 5. What is the end game? What does Mission Accomplished look like for Field Commander Cohen?

LET'S HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT ONE, MR. TESTICLES FOR BRAINS.

I don't doubt LC has behaved manipulative and erratically to others in the past and has screwed around, taken drugs, been a control freak, a holier than thou false saint, a cold hearted opportunist, a sad eyed narcissistic womanizer, basically a poet-douche, born to the manor, silver spoon folk-rock icon, but what I haven't seen so far, is any evidence he's a Manchurian-type candidate. The problems with his ex-manager Lynch are problematic but reading both sides of the account I haven't been swayed. And if LC is an minor demon in service to The Grand Conspiracy wouldn't his manager of 20 years have to be complicit also?

NOT NECESSARILY. MANY PEOPLE WORKING IN MANY FIELDS INCLUDING THE CONTROLLED ENTERTAINMENT WORLD, ARE HONEST AND UNWITTING SLAVES.
.

I don't doubt you were somehow involved in LC world to some degree, but I'm just not seeing anything substantiating he's involved in anything grand conspiracy related.

THE FACT THAT YOU IMAGINE GURUILLA AND I WERE ATTEMPTING TO PROVE A "GRAND CONSPIRACY" SAYS A LOT ABOUT YOUR ATTENTION SPAN AND THE AMAZING DEPTH OF YOUR THOUGHT. NEITHER OF US EVER USED THAT PHRASE IN THE PODCAST, OR IS EVEN REMOTELY INTERESTED IN DISCUSSING ANY SUCH THING.

YOU ARE PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. THAT'S A DISINFO TACFIC AND IT DOESN'T WORK ON ME. SORRY.

[guruilla]

Since it keeps coming up: I formally apologize to Ann Diamond for copying and pasting from Man Next Door without asking permission and beyond the limits of fair-use.

Oh, and while I'm at it, since the hardest part is getting on one's knees, to brekin for breaking the sacred code of silence.

(As an educational footnote: This is the catch of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It don't work.)

[lunarmoth]

What sacred code of silence, may I ask, or is it a Guy Thing?

I forgive you, by the way.

So then, I suppose it's Do What Thou Wilt around here?

[guruilla]

Being flip, I forgot the new solemnity of this space. Brekin's admittedly unclear request for total secrecy, re: the identity of his informant.

[Joao]

What an embarrassment of a response. All caps is the cherry on top.

[brekin]

Drama. Here I'll make it very clear to you lunarmoth. When you say:

I DONT THINK THIS IS THE APPROPRIATE VENUE TO LIST ALL THE EVIDENCE.

This is the exact, appropriate venue to list all the evidence that LC is either an operative, victim or associate of a conspiracy. Because the rest is just bullshit trivia. This is not a LC fan site or vanity forum devoted to his career or life.

Your writings may be of interest to people interested in LC and his general milieu but this threads purpose is to explore whether LC is an operative. From what I've read of your memoir it is very impressionistic and implies much in regards to this matter without being definitive on any particulars. That is fine, that is the nature of that form, but this threads purpose and form is different. This is about facts and cutting to the chase.

1. Either you think LC is an operative, victim or associate of a conspiracy- or don't.
2. Either you have some evidence of that- or don't.

See if you answer yes to 1., then you better deliver on 2. Referrals to your writing don't work if you aren't clear on 1.
And its fine if you think yes to 1, but don't have anything definitive for 2. But please just admit that and say more work needs to be done and don't malign those who say the shared evidence is pretty thin.

Do you, lunarmoth, think LC is an operative, victim or associate of a conspiracy?
If so, do you believe your memoir substantiates that claim?

[Elvis]

All caps is the cherry on top.

I think that's a phone issue. (on my phone, I don't even know how to type numerals, or upper case letters.)

[lunarmoth]

Dear brekin
I didn't start this thread. I didn't give it its name. I didnt come here to prove anything to you or anyone else. Guruilla did all of the above.

Ask him what the purpose of this thread is. I can tell you it's not to satisfy your bottomless craving for hegemonic certainty and proof of "grand conspiracy" in the ever-shifting multiverse of your masturbatory chatroom.

Or, to put it another way: when did this discussion turn into an Inquisition?

More work always remains to be done. I'm doing it. Why don't you back off and do a little work on yourself?

Are you important here, or something? Are you the boss of All This? Please identify yourself and explain what you're doing here because I have no idea.

[lunarmoth]

The caps are both a phone and a formating issue. How do I make my responses stand out in the body of the quote without using caps?

Another thing I'm struggling with, brekin, is the twisted logic of your questions:

You ask, or state:

"1. Either you think LC is an operative, victim or associate of a conspiracy- or don't. 
2. Either you have some evidence of that- or don't.

See if you answer yes to 1, then you better deliver on 2. "

I think I'm perfectly clear that I'm not talking about, and never even mentioned a "conspiracy". So I guess the answer to that has to be NO.

So therefore, according to you, I have no need to deliver on 2.

Are we done now? Can I go to bed?

Would you like to rephrase your question and possibly elicit a better answer?

[brekin]

Dear brekin
I didn't start this thread. I didn't give it its name. I didnt come here to prove anything to you or anyone else. Guruilla did all of the above.
Ask him what the purpose of this thread is. I can tell you it's not to satisfy your bottomless craving for hegemonic certainty and proof of "grand conspiracy" in the ever-shifting multiverse of your masturbatory chatroom.
Or, to put it another way: when did this discussion turn into an Inquisition?
More work always remains to be done. I'm doing it. Why don't you back off and do a little work on yourself?
Are you important here, or something? Are you the boss of All This? Please identify yourself and explain what you're doing here because I have no idea.

I don't need guruilla to process reality for me. We are in a building with a sign on it outside called Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material) in a town called Rigorous Intuition. I'm standing here to learn why some people think LC is possibly an operative. So far, there's been some chatter and allusions to "sinister things" but it seems like the main attraction for the night never seems to start and the "discussion" seems to break down when someone asks why? or how? If people want to hang out and bullshit, fine, take it outside. But if people want to seriously discuss the matter than now is the time, this is the place. This is why it was built, even if you didn't build it and somebody did it in your name. You are not imprisoned here, but you are choosing to dwell.

If you don't have anything more to contribute to the matter, you are under no obligation to remain or prove anything. I, and probably not I alone, am not convinced from what I've seen so far that there is anything substantiating LC is an operative. You seem to be cagey with whether you yourself believe he is to, or whether he's just a high level creepy dude. If you want to petition guruilla to change the thread to "Leonard Cohen, Creepy Dude?", poof, I am my fine tooth comb will be out the door and never be back. If you aren't comfortable with your name on the masthead, then by all means I implore you to ask that to be removed. But if the thread title stays the same (and the first half is the primary matter under discussion) and you want to brainstorm, muse or reminisce uninhibited about this topic without any thought to having to bolster with fact, then you should be ready to admit you don't have such facts, or be inclined to start another thread in the Lounge, or on a more intuitive and less rigorous blog, or do so on your own blog. In a nutshell, if you aren't even sure what the purpose of the thread is, well then, I think it might be better for you to determine that before you continue.

Those who make the claim, need to provide the proof. That is just how it works. (As I, someone who doesn't claim to know LC personally at all or his associates or scene, and have not suggested he has undergone MKULTRA experiments and is a nefarious murderer/snuff film producer, but still reached out to someone is his circle, I believe I have gone well above and beyond the call of duty and my work on this matter is more than done.)

As far as identification. Pretty boring really. I'm not the boss of all this, just the night supervisor. I never found the girl. I never got rich. Follow me.

[lunarmoth]

Well I think you should put more effort into finding the right girl. It's tragic that someone as luminously gifted as yourself remains alone in this world, jerking off in public.

I believe you're giving me some kind of complicated choice, based on your desire for conclusive evidence right here, right now (it would take up a lot of space as well as hours to spell it all out)

If I fail I should take my pseudonymous penname from the headline (a masthead is not the same thing) although I didn't put it up there to begin with - my loyal sponsor and footman, the lower case gentleman and guru-killer did that on my behalf. He was hoping I might drop in and defend the title and the excerpts he chose for their shock value without asking me -- but I was delayed by old people, arrived late and disheveled, and "didnt do well at Rigorous Intuition" - his very words.

So you're saying: since I wont supply you with debunkable evidence to back up guruilla's provocative headline, I should fold up my Kalashnikov and slither off to a less "rigorous" forum ..

Makes lots of sense. Is this how you always talk to girls? I'm seeing the wounded vanity but I'm just not feeling the rigor.

[lunarmoth]

To be a bit more clear, brekin: you are talking about potentially libelous material at this forum. You think the title: "Leonard Cohen, operative? (Ann Diamond material)" is potentially libelous whereas "Leonard Cohen, Creepy Dude" passes the test. I think you base that on the idea that "creepy dude" is a description based on a personal opinion (not mine btw) whereas "operative" is a statement of fact that can presumably be proven or disproven. I think that's why guruilla cleverly added a ?

Which makes it a question, not a statement of fact.

I won't keep repeating this, but guruilla created that title and should be the one to change it, if it's determined to be libelous

As I understand it, I am allowed to tell my personal story. If others are named, then I have to be careful of making damaging statements about them which can't be substantiated. But no one can deny me the right to write about my experiences. People can ignore, dismiss, or question that they really happened - and people have done this especially after reading parts of The Man Next Door.

I feel on the whole it's better to occupy a space on the fringes of reality when telling the truth, because much of what goes in life is extraordinary if we allow it to be, and story telling is often about the extraordinary. I'm the storyteller in this situation. Guruilla or rather Jasun was the interviewer who got me to tell my story on his podcast. He made a special effort to get it "straight" knowing I had a tendency to get mired in details. He acted like a coach or trainer and it worked because I was ready to present it in a relatively logical and responsible way which he supported by listening closely and commenting brilliantly. But that was after (as guruilla) he had already posted the inflammatory excerpts here.

Guruilla later came to question whether certain parts of the book could be hallucinations or distortions brought on by trauma. That's an interesting question that could be explored although I wasn't ready back in October. Also, material that surfaces through trauma shouldn't be considered "false" just because it's emotionally charged
I don't do drugs but I think high levels of stress and emotional anguish can cause us to experience the world with heightened sensitivity and to perceive things differently than we would in our normal conscious state (which is really just another kind of trance).

In our interview, Jasun did some mild cross-examination of some of my stories and details. By the end he seemed persuaded that I was pretty rational though describing things that must have seemed a little iffy. However, Jasun is a "liminalist" and has had his own share of strangeness

In the interview I didnt only talk about my personal experiences. I cited facts, matters of historical record and, in a way, built a case for Leonard Cohen having lived a double life, with two careers - one of them visible, the other not. For anyone who ever fell under the spell of Cohen's public persona, that's an intriguing concept.

So Jasun was to some extent won over to my point of view simply by allowing it or enabling it to come out. Guruilla was not. Guruilla had already created this thread, and started a discussion in digital print form. Its not "print" but it's close to print. It's definitely not audio or a two-way conversation face to face or Skyped from a toilet in Greece. It's more of a free for all and naturally I felt slightly exposed and even betrayed but I agreed to let it roll on.

As an ex - journalist I'm very aware of how powerful elites control our media and limit discussion of topics like this one. That's not a "conspiracy theory" - I've experienced it first hand. I think one effect this control is having is to keep us in an infantile state and isolated from one another. This is how they want us.

This forum is where issues of libel have surfaced and I'm sensitive to those issues. It's not the first time. I don't know how to resolve these issues without a legal opinion from someone knowledgeable. If it's a question of who is responsible for posting potentially libelous material I think the responsibility falls on the person who created the forum, the admins, and the people posting.

Although I'm the source of the stories or "rumours," I took some care in writing The Man Next Door so that I wouldn't get sued for false accusations. I'm fairly sure Leonard has had a legal adviser go through it for libellous content. Since i'm selling very few copies and doing nothing to publicize the book, it's hardly worth it to sue me.

This forum is another platform altogether. Over to you.

[lunarmoth]

Tapitsbo: you asked about the possibility some of what I heard back in 1980 e.g from Ken Hertz in Montreal, was somehow planted or corrupted. What I recall was his state of fear and obsession at gaining access to dangerous information that no one believed in. In a way he was like people who escaped from Polish concentration camps and ran back to their village to warn their neighbors but were treated as if insane. There were almost no points of reference in 1980 because no one knew Cameron's work was part of a much larger secret program, involving large numbers of children. That's still an unmentionable fact in Canada.

I think there was all kinds of corruption and dissimulation, as you say, even back then. I think people considered ways of getting back at the system or the people in control, or even one another i.e. other 'victims' as we would now call them - through blackmail or other kinds of coercion, seduction, deception. I think it all fed on a world of petty crime, drug dealing, pedophilia etc --

Ken, for example, had notebooks in which he recorded all conversations he had with people he knew in the neighbourhood. One of his conversational habits was to list names of people and ask if you knew them. If you said yes to one he would grill you for details on the person. He also had a photographic memory - something they tried to develop in MKULTRA kids.

I think he saw himself fitting into a wider network where information could be traded or sold. It was unspeakably bizarre and irritating - but people made excuses for him. In fact he'd been robbed of his childhood. His mother remarried and when she died she left Ken hundreds of audio tapes of herself and her second husband having sex.

All this strangeness may in fact be traceable to programs going on at the Allan Memorial under Dr. CAMERON

It was a kind of crucible and some good art came out of it

https://youtu.be/Dkyiu3GZ8eQ