Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby coffin_dodger » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:58 am

Balto:
Why do I get the feeling this entire website was created just to misdirect anyone who begins to see through the illusion?


I suppose it's dependent on which illusion one is 'seeing through'. They are multitude and multi-layered and have been built over centuries, culminating in the clusterfuck we now exist in. Many great shocks are coming for a great deal of people - how we individually and collectively handle those shocks and in what 'state of mind' we receive them is crucial.

Calm and collected is obviously preferable to frantic and confused.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Elvis » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:55 am

Lord Balto wrote:Why do I get the feeling this entire website was created just to misdirect anyone who begins to see through the illusion?



This website? Rigorous Intuition?
"Frankly, I don't think it's a good idea but the sums proposed are enormous."
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:10 pm

Looks like we are entering a new phase of this operation:

"Who'll love the devil?...
Who'll sing his song?...
Who will love the devil and his song?...
I'll love the devil!...
I'll sing his song!...
I will love the devil and his song!...
Who'll love the devil?...
Who'll kiss his tongue?...
Who will kiss the devil on his tongue?...
I'll love the devil!...
I'll kiss his tongue!...
I will kiss the devil on his tongue!...
Who'll love the devil?...
Who'll sing his song?...
I will love the devil and his song!...
Who'll love the devil?...
Who'll kiss his tongue?...
I will kiss the devil on his tongue!...

Who'll love the devil?...
Who'll sing his song?...
I WILL LOVE THE DEVIL AND SING HIS SONG!..."


(Because context is everything, and it was getting pretty quiet around here. "Still and Sunday-like")
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:39 pm

lunarmoth » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:10 pm wrote:Looks like we are entering a new phase of this operation.


We're really not.

I do appreciate your contribution to the running joke about RI being "suspiciously slow" on Sundays, though.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:03 pm

Me so confused. Do we need to change the name of this thread to Rigorous Intuition, Operation?
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:35 pm

guruilla wrote:Me so confused. Do we need to change the name of this thread to Rigorous Intuition, Operation?


Why don't we tackle one lost cause at a time?

Image
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:40 pm

R.I.P. Dave McGowan

Who'd like to be next?
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:17 pm

guruilla » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:03 pm wrote:Me so confused. Do we need to change the name of this thread to Rigorous Intuition, Operation?



guruilla
the short answer is "yes" -- we all need to change going forward and it is time we embraced our shadow.
and "no" -- not the whole site, just this thread.

this thread is basically over, it is complete, it has come full circle and i'll tell you why.

if that's okay with you...
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:38 am

Guruilla
Let me begin by saying this has been a day of dealing with some chronically irrational people. Of course I agreed to do this. But I'm tired. Being tired I also have a certain clarity of mind because I'm not tripping on my own thoughts and impulses. Today I've see how hopelessly extreme and sadly obsessive people can be, even when they're just flailing around in tiny worlds of their making. Then they turn on their TV and see Belgium in lockdown without realizing how much of this is fake and how it's dragging us forward into a time when this might be normal everyday life and our little obsessions will shrivel away and we'll just be staring at the Devil 24/7

I had a small heart attack when I came across this today: http://montrealgazette.com/entertainmen ... -last-wife
This deserves a story of it's own but I'll just skip it for now.

Years ago I was attached to justice so I wrote a little book I didn't really want people to read, unless they were ready to go into shock when they got to the end. I also posted some entries on a blog about the underside of fame, the missions, the deaths and coincidental discoveries. I was trying to see the funny side. I've always felt mysteriously overwhelmed by the Absurd. I thought everyone felt like that.

Long story short, and fasting forward, we come to last August. You asked me if we could talk about Leonard Cohen, and it ran for 6 hours and could have gone longer. Then you posted the worst sections from my little self-published book here and started a discussion. You didnt ask permission. You exceeded Fair Use. I didn't know why but iit didn't seem to matter. I thanked the universe for acting through you. Suddenly it was all about me and it didn't feel real and I didnt care. I had crossed a threshold, from invisibility to -- .

I think porn stars must feel like that when they get splashed across a screen and start collecting semen. And later there's a numbness. But then, they ask for it. I sort of asked for it, by writing my side of the story in the first place.

Of course I liked it. We have to mention that when men are present. On a deeper level it felt like rebirth. That's undeniable. It was like the balance shifting and the scales of justice swinging and the blindness was blinding. And then there was the exciting sense of trailblazing transgression. I stand by that. I'm all in favour of swinging axes and toppling statues and singing songs of progress and unity. But after washing dirty laundry in public is, comes the time to put it away.

We could have waited til LC was dead but since we didn't, there's another Act to come and I think we're going to see it very soon.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:14 pm

Ps. Guruilla
Looking over our early emails (August 22 - 26) - the dates tell a story.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:11 pm

@lunarmoth

This thread has been a difficult one for me because it mixes up personal interaction with professional commitment, i.e., the commitment to get to the truth of the subject matter, vs. the desire to be compassionate in my responses to you. This is always the case to some degree, but much more so here (it is similar, in fact, to how I am upsetting family members now by delving into family history: imagine if one of them were to start posting here!).

My impression of what’s occurred at this thread, while perhaps not as different as that of, say, brekin, is still quite different from yours. I was thinking earlier that it was closer to a hazing ritual than a real cross-examination (for you I mean). I agree that this is lamentable, but even hazing rituals may have their uses if the community that performs them is worth belonging to. I happen to think RI is, and while I’ve seen some policing going on here (at other threads), I haven’t seen any evidence that it stems from an internal authority or agenda, but only from the usual sort of kneejerk reactions and ideology-blindness that happen in any open discussion of sensitive subject matter.

As you know, stated for the record, during our six-hour conversation I found you to be a credible witness, and still do. But if I had first met you at this thread, based on many of your responses here, I would not have. That’s what I meant by the hazing ritual: to face the skepticism and even the scorn of strangers while you try and give testimony about things you may know in your bones to be true, and to stay calm and reasonable, is really the acid test, one that we are all going to have to face if we are willing to stare the devil in the eye and speak our truth on That Day.

That kind of adversity is valuable, even necessary. Individuation doesn’t happen because we feel like it (we never do); it happens because we have no other way forward save through the gauntlet of immense social, psychological, and spiritual pressure, both inner and outer.

While I don’t think you’ve made any enemies at this thread, it’s probably safe to say you have yet to make any allies. Yet there are potential allies here. This has probably been the least productive or collaborative (or warm) thread I've participated in at RI. I don’t think it’s surprising that a survivor of MKULTRA would find it triggering to share her story with supposedly rigorous researchers of such material and then find that they are more interested in nitpicking and goading. But, on the other hand, surely it can’t be surprising for you that people are deeply resistant and reactive to such material, when it is coming from someone who has experienced it directly ~ in other words, who is communicating something much deeper and more distraught that mere intellectual information? Or that the very thing that ought to illicit a compassionate response (your severe psychic trauma) calls forth instead the reverse.

On the one hand, this could be viewed, at least potentially, as evidence for the veracity of your claims; on the other hand, and unfortunately, it can be seen to undermine them, because a person who is reactive and who argues more emotionally than rationally (or even intuitively, if it’s at the cost of logic) is all too easy to dismiss for those who are unconsciously struggling to do so (i.e., to keep their own traumas from bubbling up). Like I say, it’s a gauntlet; or even a crucible.

That’s what I see happening here, and in the world at large; it may be the Devil, but if so He is the best and most essential Ally we have. The only one ruthlessly honest enough to tell us what we refuse to hear. As you said, time to own the shadow.

I haven’t addressed any of the specifics of your last post (about your experience of being exposed, etc.) because it didn’t feel that real (accurate) to me. The feeling of suddenly being thrust into the lights of a porn shoot, and all that, because of my intervention. Henry Makow gets a LOT more hits than I ever have, and his sort of exposure comes a lot closer to sexual exploitation. So I think maybe you are conflating an internal experience with an external one.

If I missed something, I am sure you will let me know. :wink:
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby tapitsbo » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:30 pm

Hope the Act to come leaves all parties unharmed.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby nashvillebrook » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:35 pm

Damn, I have no idea what brought here just now. I've been blogging on political stuff non-stop for weeks and needed a break, maybe? But something made me open a window and check this thread and I feel like I just walked into the middle of divorce proceedings.

I'd just like to say...that lunarmoth does have an ally in me, and that I also agree with what guruilla says about the difficulty of believing the totality of the story just given the material posted here. I read the Cold War book and listed to the podcast, oh, about 3 times. I can tell from their work that both lunar and guru are top shelf minds, and caring individuals. They're not trying to put one over on anyone. There's no payoff, or benefit that I can see for either of them. They're just working through the material b/c MKULTRA and all the rest is supposed to be something we're interested in here. No? These are truly fascinating narratives, and there's a wealth of new data points. Folks can ignore them if they choose. But impugning the integrity of the person who brings the information directly to you seems in particular bad form.

I can also see how someone who has been a fan of LC would be like "oh no she didn't," with bringing this material to light. It's unflattering. But, the way I see it, in the context of the whole story, LC is a victim too. Maybe, instead of attacking (or hazing) lunarmoth, we could dig deeper into the clues provided and maybe come up with some new connections that actually shed some light on the subject instead of generating so much heat.

There's a troubling sexist dynamic throughout this thread. If it were a guy telling the story of his experiences with a famous woman, I seriously doubt there would be all this negging. Likewise, the more the negative banter goes unchallenged, and the more lunar signals her exasperation, the worse it all gets. the discourse isn't operating on the level of exchanging information. it's operating on the level of coercion, which is particularly nasty given the subject matter we're dealing with here.

Lunar, AD...presented her story in memoir form because that's how the story happened to her. Fuck this shit about having to apologize for presenting the information in this way. It doesn't have to be sanitized into a course outline or a powerpoint presentation so as not to offend male sensibilities, and calm their little nerves. This story happened in the context of the lives lived, and that's how the story should be told.

It takes an amazing amount of courage to do what Ann did, throughout her whole life. People who hide behind avatars and screen names to hurl insults at her can't take that away from her. She'll always be more powerful and more courageous than you.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:45 pm

Hazing ritual? You do those around here?
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:01 pm

lunarmoth » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:45 pm wrote:Hazing ritual? You do those around here?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazing

If I wasnt so flippant and jaded I'd be shocked and disappointed
What happened? Did you just unconsciously blurt out a secret of this board?
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