Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:22 pm

I am not sure it is fair to try and discredit a witness because she believes something you do not, i.e., that dreams can have genuine "psychic" content. I know from my own experience that they can & do, but that's a separate issue. Man Next Door is a memoir, not a presentation of evidence. If I'd written it I would also have included significant dreams.

Then there is also the question of whether dreams can be generated or influenced via technology of whatever sort. Directed energy weapons do appear to be a reality (I know of someone who has witnessed them working first-hand; Adam Gorightly claims to have felt their effects). Here's a list of some of the "symptoms":

Chilling of Skin/ Instant Coldness - Generalized or Localized
Thermal heating, nighttime, severe night sweats
Thermal heating, daytime, discernible "microwave hot spots" on skull
Intense Itching
Benign or Malignant Tumors
Ringing in Ears
Body Manipulation
Induced Imagery/Thoughts
Induced Sleep
Seizures
Sensation of Blunt Trauma to Head
Induced Smells
Coughing up Blood
Sensation of Electric Current Running through the Body
Dehydration
Sudden onset asthma
Irregular Heartbeat
Hyperactive bladder, sudden incontinence
Sensation of Objects being Forced into various areas of the Body
Deterioration of Cognitive Abilities
Jaw or Tooth Pain
Holograms
Severe facial and glandular swelling
Sleep Deprivation
Dizziness or Loss of Balance
Blackouts or loss of consciousness
Severe disorientation while driving
Lesions on Internal Organs
Sudden Rashes
Sudden appearance of large burn marks
Dream Manipulation
Memory Loss
Thought Monitoring/Manipulation
Electronic Rape
Metallic Taste in Mouth
Thyroid Problems
Electroshocks
Nausea
Tingling
Extreme Fatigue
Nosebleeds
Topical & Internal Burning
Genital Manipulation
Numbness
Vision Loss/Impairment
Hair Loss


(They got me with that last one, those bastards)

kmartlu: John Hammond is indeed a key link in the chain, IMO.

Hammond was instrumental in sparking or furthering numerous musical careers, including those of Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, Benny Goodman, Charlie Christian, Billie Holiday, Count Basie, Teddy Wilson, Big Joe Turner, Pete Seeger, Babatunde Olatunji, Aretha Franklin, George Benson, Freddie Green, Leonard Cohen, Arthur Russell, Jim Copp, Asha Puthli and Stevie Ray Vaughan. He is also largely responsible for the revival of delta blues artist Robert Johnson's music.

Hammond was christened John Henry Hammond, Jr., although both his father and grandfather shared the same name. He was the youngest child and only son of John Henry Hammond. His father attended Yale University, graduating with a law degree from Columbia Law School. His grandfather was Civil War General John Henry Hammond, who married Sophia Vernon Wolfe. His father was a brother of Ogden H. Hammond, ambassador to Spain, and uncle to politician Millicent Fenwick. Despite the family fortune from his mother's side of the family, his father worked to provide for his family and maintain the family fortune. He worked in various jobs "as a banker, lawyer, and railroad executive".[1]

Hammond's mother was the former Emily Vanderbilt Sloane, one of three daughters of William Douglas Sloane and Emily Thorn Vanderbilt. John H. Hammond, Sr. and Emily Sloane were wed on April 5, 1899. They also had four daughters: Emily, Adele, Rachel, and Alice, who married musician Benny Goodman in 1942.

Born in New York to great wealth as the great-grandson of William Henry Vanderbilt, Hammond showed interest in music from an early age. At age four he began studying the piano, only to switch to the violin at age eight. He was steered toward classical music by his mother, but was more interested in the music sung and played by the servants, many of whom were black. He was known to go down to his basement to listen to the upbeat music in the servant's quarters. He loved Sir Harry Lauder's "Roamin' in the Gloamin'". While he was in the basement, the rest of his family in the greater part of the five-story mansion would listen to "the great opera tenor Enrico Caruso, as well as to standard classics by Beethoven, Brahms, and Mozart".

Hammond became interested in social reform at a young age. His mother had a large interest in social reform as a means to give back some of her fortune to the community. She often found solace in religion. Hammond shared her desire to help the community with his privilege.

....

J. Edgar Hoover, FBI director, investigated Hammond's link to the Communist Party. Due to the various benefits and fund-raisers that Hammond hosted for the popular front, his name was often listed in The Daily Worker, a communist newspaper. Furthermore, his name often appeared on the letterheads of left-wing organizations for which he was a donor or member. However, Hammond was not a communist.

I'm not sure if some people questioning Diamond's allegations about Cohen have the full back story, regarding the CIA's decades long involvement in creating & backing leftist publications, poets, artists, and movements. My own family was part of it (Not the CIA, but Fabians); there is a long history of aristocrats being involved in "leftist" social reform. Gee, I wonder why? Guilty conscious, or something else?

In that larger context, an unknown poet in 1959 meets Jacob Rothschild in Hampstead, is "sent" to Hydra where he is photographed by LIFE magazine (part of CIA's Op. Mockingbird, am I repeating myself yet?) among a Bohemian group of poets (inc a black guy, nice progressive touch), curses the house of a famous painter who is married to the ex-wife of Rothschild, the house burns down the next day, Cohen hops over to Cuba two weeks before the revolution peaks, gets arrested by the Cubans as a suspected CIA agent (& is photographed), magically 'slips away' from custody in the 'confusion,' joins the Israeli army for the Yom Kippur war and hangs out with a notorious mass murderer, talks in interview in 1965 for a national TV show about him (when he was still mostly unknown) about how he is interested in war & killing, starts giving military salutes on stage, goes to NY and hangs out with the Warhol crowd, signs with John Hammond with only a few songs under his belt, sings about being a "most important spy," and so on, and so forth, I mean come on guys. Is this RI? Are we really going to start talking about "coincidences" here???

Isn't it time we moved past the IF and started getting to the how and why?
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby tapitsbo » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:48 pm

A cross-reading of the last two posts would encourage me to posit that ceremonious sages such as Cohen are positioned just right for the purposes of imprinting e.g. intuitions that blossom into beliefs about Dream Babies in sensitively receptive souls; once the sages' wonderfully workable ability to shape the suggestible had been metered and noted, they could be inserted in various scenarios without themselves necessarily knowing every detail of deeper meta-plays being perspired over in the background.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:22 pm

Geez, I guess some people can get some bedroom eyes going by playing Suzanne or Bird on the Wire, but Cohen always seemed like what you played for the girl who wanted you to read her poetry and not the girl who wanted you to... well fill in the blank. I mean I like Cohen's music, but he's no Cat Stevens with the ladies, but if people want to grind it out to Everybody Knows, then I guess whatever helps.

This below by identity is something that I have to agree with 100% and didn't want to touch it when I encountered it so far because it touches another "sensitive area" on R.I. of paranormal proclivities and sympathies and I'm already in the True Believer dog house and didn't want to seem even more of a conspiracy apostate. (Which is insanely funny, because I'm a self defined parapsychology nut and conspiracy buff.) Funny, how I'm both seen as radically conservative and a nay sayer on this thread. But sometimes though logic is the most advanced form of rigorous intuition and Diamond's psychic coincidences with Cohen so far in the book don't seem to not give one confidence in a straight take (which yeah happens in memoirs) but its another road bump for me. And not because I don't think such things are outside the realm of the possible but that Diamonds and Cohens early "training" could cause such a thing is another dramatic node that seems more too good to be true Holly-weird plotting.

But like, one niggling thing I haven't gotten to it in the book (if it is explained) but how do we know that the infamous picture of the McGuill subject is Cohen? Because Diamond recognizes his nose? I'm hoping there is more than that. So far, all we have is Cohen asking Diamond (mysteriously leading of course) if she's ever taken LSD in a flotation tank in which he said he did it once and loved it. How do we know he didn't do this with John Lilly and a dolphin? One character in the book, and even if he is real, he's a character, has gone through the files of McGuil showing how a lot of people he knows are in there. Did anybody make copies of those files?

guruilla has some good instances of Cohen (bay of pigs/six days war) seeming to be an operative, and that could be the case, but it could also be him playing the revolutionary. A lot of singer/songwriters flirted with politics because so much going on during that time was politicized and it was also a good way to get their music out there. Interesting stuff, though that should be examined. I just think a little restraint is called for. I've often thought William Burroughs had to be CIA with his interests, background, output and teflon like ability to evade punishment from the law, but throwing down he is one calls for a little more tangibles.

identity wrote:I am all for investigating meaningful coincidences/synchronicities (one might, in fact, say that I have eked a career of sorts out of the phenomenon), but investing just-barely-synchronistic or even absolute non-coincidences with Cosmic Significance does no one any favours. If one is presenting material of already questionable veracity/factuality (as Ann Diamond does regarding LC), to mix it up with dreams/portents (one's own and others'), and very loose or even non-existent synchronistic (yet Cosmically Significant!) linkages only serves to weaken the reliability of one's testimony.

Pasted below are excerpts from The Man Next Door, with comments within [ ].

On the night of October 9 [1979], John Lennon’s birthday [in what way is this significant?], I had one of
my dreams that were not “dreams.” In this dream I saw Leonard seated
next to his Japanese Roshi. I had never met the Roshi, but later
recognized him in photographs as the brown-robed, round-faced monk
in my dream. He and Leonard appeared as Light Beings holding a Light
Baby made from the luminous webbing that connected all three of them.
Along with this image came a message, spoken with great authority,
which I wrote down although it made no sense to me.
[Could that be because, it being a dream––even if "not a dream"––it need not make any sense whatsoever,
nor refer to anything outside the ephemeral reality of the dream itself?]

"TWO COLOSSAL ENERGIES OF LIGHT TRIED TO CONVERGE FOR
THE THIRD MILENNIUM, BUT WERE FORCED APART BY
THE THIRD WORLD COAGULATION."

The Iranian revolution was in the news and not long after I
dreamed of an army of angry Muslims carrying portraits of their spiritual
leader Ayatollah Khoumeini. In this dream, the Virgin Mary, in flowing
blue robes, marched alongside the Iranian women in black, chanting
slogans, fist raised in solidarity. The Third World did seem to be
coagulating – or rather, events were polarizing towards war. Who were
the two energies of light? I guessed they were Leonard and Roshi. But
who was the baby?

In New York, at the time, although I didn’t know it, John Lennon
and Mick Jagger had been meeting regularly to plan a new Peace
initiative, a mass movement that would reunite and recharge the sixties
generation. Meanwhile, the military industrial complex was preparing to
unveil its new Star Wars program, aiming at the militarization of space.
I pondered the possible meanings of this dream for some time
afterward, before deciding to act on it in December. I decided I would
go find Leonard in Europe.
[Would not any dream of a Cosmic Destiny involving LC have been sufficient to send Ann
back to Leonard, wherever he might happen to be? In what way does she herself figure in this dream, btw, so that by going to find Leonard she is "acting on the dream"?]

I was not in contact with him or any of his
friends at the time, and had no inkling of his tour schedule. I did not
know what country he was performing in, how long the tour would last,
or even how to find out these things. Hazel might know, but I was not
about to phone her for that information. Instead, I decided to trust my
intuition. Some inner voice was telling me to fly to England in early
December. Acting on the advice of my friend Annu, who read my coffee
grounds one day and told me to fly to London on December 4, I bought
a cheap ticket on Laker Airways which operated between New York and
London.

[...]

Flying to London made absolutely no sense except that
I felt a compulsion to decipher the message in the dream, which had
seemed so momentous, even though it was phrased in the past tense. It
was as if the events referred to had already happened. In that case, how
could I hope to change them? Who were the “two colossal energies of
light?” Apparently, the message referred to Roshi and Leonard. Why
were they holding that baby, composed of the same luminous material? I
felt I was about to discover the meaning of my own life. On the plane I
sat next to a blond American boy who was spending Christmas in
Germany. I told him where I was going and why and he said I might be
crazy, but I was fascinating.


On the morning of December 6 I was in London’s Victoria Station,
hoping to find a ticket agent who would tell me where to look for
Leonard Cohen.

[...]

December 6, the anniversary of the Rolling Stones’ disastrous
Altamont concert in which a fan was stabbed to death by Hell’s Angels.
On that day in history, but ten years later [1989], the Montreal Massacre would
occur as the Rolling Stones were playing a concert in Montreal
[First, the massacre occurred between 5:10 and 5:30 PM––not the time a rock concert would usually be taking place––and in any case, the Stones were actually playing in Indianapolis on Dec. 6th; they only played in Montreal on December 13th and 14th, so I fail utterly to see how a concert by the Rolling Stones on a completely different day can have anything meaningful to do with either the Montreal Massacre or events in her own life ten years earlier on Dec. 6th, 1979] and 14 young women would be shot by a crazed young man who believed feminists were taking over the world.

On December 6, 1980, Mark David Chapman, who felt he was
being guided by voices telling him to go looking for John Lennon [whom he actually shot on Dec. 8th],
would have just arrived in New York [how is when he arrived in NYC meaningful in any way?], where––like me––he checked into
the YMCA [when did she check into that YMCA? She doesn't say in the book, and, again, even if she did at some point, how is it relevant here?]. He would stalk John Lennon outside his home at the Dakota Residence, where Rosemary’s Baby had been shot some years before.

Since two of these events were still in the future, I did not feel that
day was anything special [hint: it wasn't!]. Nor did I know that two months earlier on the
night of October 9-10, when I was jolted from sleep by my dream of
Leonard and the Roshi, these two were in fact meeting in Europe for the
first few days of the tour that would later be named after “Field
Commander Cohen.”

Since I was not a Beatles’ fan I had no idea that John Lennon had
celebrated his 39th birthday – and his son Sean’s fourth – with Yoko
Ono and friends at the Tavern on the Green in New York City on
October 9. Even if I had known Lennon was born on October 9, I
would never have connected him to my dream of the “two colossal
energies” holding the mysterious baby which I wrote down in my
journal on October 10.
[Neither would I, but for some reason she feels it's significant enough to make the connection here; why? What exactly does Lennon's 39th birthday celebration at Tavern on the Green have to do with her dream, besides the fact that they both probably occurred within 24 hours of each other (as did billions of other dreams and events on the planet)?]

Years later, these coincidences strike me as odd, or even
mysteriously meaningful but at the time, as I told the blond Ameican
boy sitting next to me from New York to London, I was merely driven
by curiosity to find out what lay in store for me if I suspended normal
behaviour and ordinary consciousness for a while.


I hadn’t seen
this moment coming. I stayed on the bus with Leonard and two 16-year
old Polish sisters, who had materialized that morning. Leonard sat up
front and chatted with the two girls, who looked to be identical twins.
He said they were young travellers from behind the Iron Curtain who
came to the concert and had asked for a ride into London. I had no
plan, other than to reconnect with my lesbian friends in London at the
Hotel Maree before they took off for India.

The bus came to a final stop at a posh hotel near Hyde Park. I
unloaded my bag, and followed Leonard inside and the two Polish girls
came with us. He motioned me to wait, and said he would be right down
after he helped the two girls check in. After the three of them
disappeared into the elevator along with a bellhop, I sat down in the
lobby with my bag and waited. Ten minutes passed, and no sign of
Leonard. He was taking his time up there with those girls. I was thinking
about my mission. Somehow, over the seven days, I had been too
involved in my strange inner drama, too caught up in the excitement of
the tour, or just too frightened to get through to Leonard that our
relationship was very important, blessed not only by a mysterious Indian
guru who had appeared in a Himalayan cave, but also by the Roshi who
appeared in my dream, offering me a baby. Furthermore, I had meant to
assure him that all I wanted was a normal life. I didn’t want riches, not
even fame. I just wanted to complete my mission. I wanted the two
colossal energies of light to come together so the Baby could be born.
And save the world.


"Makyo" just about sums it up. (Did Roshi not ever bring that up with her?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makyo

edit: link added
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:55 pm

A memoir is not an argument. It is a narrative. And narratives often have lives of their own. Its also possible that the writer of the memoir is more forgiving of the subject than some of her readers, due to having been immersed in the world where all these strange events took place. Or appeared to take place.

As for Leonard's having been in MKULTRA: he was, according to survivor Kenneth Hertz. He also told his former agent and her mother that he was in MKULTRA. He was a Cameron subject during the years when Cameron was running MKULTRA subproject 68 at McGill, using drugs, hypnosis, and sensory isolation to create Manchurian candidates. After which he travelled to Havana just at the time MKULTRA/CIA spy master Allen Dulles had organized an invasion and there was a CIA plan to poison Castro -- Leonard wrote a song about that. He also wrote poems novels and songs featuring Nazi doctors and pedophile psychiatrists -

How much proof do you want? It's easy to provide, if that is our purpose here: to build a case against one singer who was just one of many.

But thats not my purpose.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:32 pm

guruilla, prepare for a private communication from a primary player in a few moments.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:39 pm

brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:32 pm wrote:guruilla, prepare for a private communication from a primary player in a few moments.

:shock:

Is that a threat?

:lol:
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:43 pm

guruilla wrote:
brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:32 pm wrote:guruilla, prepare for a private communication from a primary player in a few moments.

:shock:

Is that a threat?

:lol:


That has to be one of the funniest R.I. response ever. No, and it isn't a direct communication but a passed on one. Curious of your response, you can PM me, I just sent it. I didn't ask for permission to publish so if you talk about it here please don't name names. And don't worry, if you see men in black following you it is probably for other reasons then this topic. That is a joke.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:47 pm

brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:22 pm wrote:How do we know he didn't do this with John Lilly and a dolphin?

Uh, John C. Lily is implicated in the program, AFAIK.

brekin wrote:guruilla has some good instances of Cohen (bay of pigs/six days war) seeming to be an operative, and that could be the case, but it could also be him playing the revolutionary. A lot of singer/songwriters flirted with politics because so much going on during that time was politicized and it was also a good way to get their music out there.

If LC was "playing the revolutionary," the question still remains whose revolutionary team was he on, ie, who was backing him to do so, and who was backing the backers? Unless you are suggesting he just gallivanted around on his own whims as a way to promote himself, happened to show up at the right place at the right time, all out of some uncanny intuition and supernatural good luck, and that his connections to Rothschilds et al. was just an entirely unrelated coincidence? Also, we need to factor in that LC was vocally anti-revolution if/when he talked protesters out of the desire to protest in the 1970s, according to Diamond's accounts. It's possible he had a change of heart and became a covert fan of Ronald Reagan only later; it's also possible he was just playing the revolutionary poet as a cloak for other activities.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:51 pm

brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:43 pm wrote:
guruilla wrote:
brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:32 pm wrote:guruilla, prepare for a private communication from a primary player in a few moments.

:shock:

Is that a threat?

:lol:


That has to be one of the funniest R.I. response ever. No, and it isn't a direct communication but a passed on one. Curious of your response, you can PM me, I just sent it. I didn't ask for permission to publish so if you talk about it here please don't name names. And don't worry, if you see men in black following you it is probably for other reasons then this topic. That is a joke.

OK, I read it, thanks. I didn't bother to try and contact this person because, based on what AD had said about her, there wasn't much point. The correspondence you sent confirms that. It's exactly what someone would say if AD's version were true ~ or if it was untrue.

Funny how that works, innit?
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:13 pm

guruilla » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:51 pm wrote:
brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:43 pm wrote:
guruilla wrote:
brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:32 pm wrote:guruilla, prepare for a private communication from a primary player in a few moments.

:shock:

Is that a threat?

:lol:


That has to be one of the funniest R.I. response ever. No, and it isn't a direct communication but a passed on one. Curious of your response, you can PM me, I just sent it. I didn't ask for permission to publish so if you talk about it here please don't name names. And don't worry, if you see men in black following you it is probably for other reasons then this topic. That is a joke.

OK, I read it, thanks. I didn't bother to try and contact this person because, based on what AD had said about her, there wasn't much point. The correspondence you sent confirms that. It's exactly what someone would say if AD's version were true ~ or if it was untrue.

Funny how that works, innit?


:party: This is getting funny. We just discount other people's credibility (sound familiar?) because it counteracts AD's? The problem is while we can adopt AD's claims temporarily, to test, we can't adopt her thinking, because then we've already decided she is the authority on what happened, when there are a lot of perspectives. And the perspective that things didn't take place at all the way she described (and we are talking small things right now) from a key person hurts the supposed big things. And not even bothering to consider other data points from key people makes me believe that perhaps people want to believe that Cohen is an operative (fan or not fan irrelevant) to fit a larger belief system they have constructed.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby identity » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:26 pm

guruilla » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:22 am

I am not sure it is fair to try and discredit a witness because she believes something you do not, i.e., that dreams can have genuine "psychic" content. I know from my own experience that they can & do, but that's a separate issue


I am not a prosecutor and have no interest in attempting to discredit anyone, and I know as well as anyone that there can be meaningful content in dreams; but that does not mean that every dream––even or especially those with very dramatic informational or feeling content––is equally meaningful or prophetic, or that one's subsequent interpretation of it is a correct or useful one. Delusion/self-deception is always a strong possibility, especially when hormones/romantic love/limerence may be part of the equation.

I am agnostic wrt the claims she makes about LC, but it really makes no difference where I stand on that because I have no interest in Cohen's music/writing whatsoever. The reason I brought up the point I did at all is that, in my estimation, she does a good enough job discrediting herself by finding seemingly meaningful patterns in the web of wild associations she makes between dreams, persons, and events (some, like the Rolling Stones concert in Montreal, based on erroneous information). Trust me, I know from decades of experience that there are often meaningful patterns and correlations to be found in seemingly unrelated phenomena, but the case here seems, to me, very weak. If I had written the book, and wanted my readers to take my claims regarding LC seriously, I would have excised any such weak apparent synchronicities, and also have discussed at greater length the possibility of my own (romantic) self-deception (especially if Zen practice and ruthlessly honest self-examination were part of my life, as I would expect them to be in the case of Ann, given her involvement with Zen and Roshi [unless her presence at Mt. Baldy, again, was really all about The LC/AD Cosmic Destiny-Interwovenness Blessed By Roshi and Babaji with Lightwoven Saviour Baby as by-product]).
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:35 pm

brekin wrote:We just discount other people's credibility (sound familiar?) because it counteracts AD's? The problem is while we can adopt AD's claims temporarily, to test, we can't adopt her thinking, because then we've already decided she is the authority on what happened, when there are a lot of perspectives. And the perspective that things didn't take place at all the way she described (and we are talking small things right now) from a key person hurts the supposed big things. And not even bothering to consider other data points from key people makes me believe that perhaps people want to believe that Cohen is an operative (fan or not fan irrelevant) to fit a larger belief system they have constructed.

Not following your logic here. If LC is an operative, then he is part of an operation, ergo, he would have been surrounded by operatives throughout his career, ergo, anyone who is implicated in that operation will deny the claims that LC was an operative. (And most of those who weren't won't know; hence the opportunity of an anomaly such as AD, or Kelley Lynch)

I base my trust in AD's account on a) having spoken to her and satisfied myself that she is neither lying nor deluded. b) the accumulated evidence that substantiates her version. If her version is accurate, then there is no point in talking to many of the players named, because they are the same parties claiming that AD is a crazy stalker who never knew LC, something I have already satisfied myself is not true and in fact, malicious slander.

If I were writing a book on this, I would have to dig deeper, admittedly, if only to satisfy those, like brekin, who might consider it questionable not to speak to characters named in AD's account and hear their version of things. I am glad I am not writing a book, because I do not enjoy being lied to.

As a more general point, AD's hypothetical reasons for lying about any of this are amorphous and unconvincing (such as brekin's suggestion of crass opportunism, or one raised by others about wanting revenge); again, I trust to sufficient degree at this point in my own judgment about people to feel confident this is not the case. On the other hand, LC or any other involved parties' reasons for lying are not only plain and simple, they are unavoidable.

Operatives lie for a living and in fact, live a professional lie.

Brekin is either more audacious or more naive than me (or both) when it comes to wanting to approach such possible operatives directly and ask, Hey dude, is it true?

I would talk to LC, tho, if he'd hear me, since, of all the players, he might have the power, and even desire, to choose to break that lifelong spell. But it's probably safe to say that's not going to happen anytime soon.
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:55 pm

guruilla wrote:
I would talk to LC, tho, if he'd hear me, since, of all the players, he might have the power, and even desire, to choose to break that lifelong spell. But it's probably safe to say that's not going to happen anytime soon.


Set him free, guruilla! Set him free!


"Waiting For The Miracle"

Leonard Cohen

Baby, I've been waiting,
I've been waiting night and day.
I didn't see the time,
I waited half my life away.
There were lots of invitations
and I know you sent me some,
but I was waiting
for the miracle, for the miracle to come.
I know you really loved me.
but, you see, my hands were tied.
I know it must have hurt you,
it must have hurt your pride
to have to stand beneath my window
with your bugle and your drum,
and me I'm up there waiting
for the miracle, for the miracle to come.

Ah I don't believe you'd like it,
You wouldn't like it here.
There ain't no entertainment
and the judgements are severe.
The Maestro says it's Mozart
but it sounds like bubble gum
when you're waiting
for the miracle, for the miracle to come.

Waiting for the miracle
There's nothing left to do.
I haven't been this happy
since the end of World War II.

Nothing left to do
when you know that you've been taken.
Nothing left to do
when you're begging for a crumb
Nothing left to do
when you've got to go on waiting
waiting for the miracle to come.

I dreamed about you, baby.
It was just the other night.
Most of you was naked
Ah but some of you was light.
The sands of time were falling
from your fingers and your thumb,
and you were waiting
for the miracle, for the miracle to come

Ah baby, let's get married,
we've been alone too long.
Let's be alone together.
Let's see if we're that strong.
Yeah let's do something crazy,
something absolutely wrong
while we're waiting
for the miracle, for the miracle to come.

Nothing left to do ...

When you've fallen on the highway
and you're lying in the rain,
and they ask you how you're doing
of course you'll say you can't complain --
If you're squeezed for information,
that's when you've got to play it dumb:
You just say you're out there waiting
for the miracle, for the miracle to come.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:14 pm

brekin » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:55 pm wrote:Set him free, guruilla! Set him free!

:lol:

Touche, double whopper with fries.
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby zangtang » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:24 pm

cracking song, grommit - wonder what it sounds like.

no really - will truffle over to youtube directly...but lovely er....meter?
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