Putin's Troll Factories

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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby Elvis » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:42 am

Maybe it was only 70%. Even at 51%, Assad commanded a bigger share of the vote than Trump did in the U.S. By that measure, Assad is more legitimate than Trump. By any measure, Assad is the legitimate, constitutional president of Syria. You can believe U.S. propaganda if you like. Personally, I'm not buying it any more than I did in 2003.


Jerky » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:55 am wrote:
Elvis » 24 Apr 2018 13:36 wrote:
Syria's tyrant


The "tyrant" who was re-elected with 78% of the vote in an election judged fair by international election monitors.

Imperialist sympathizers never tire of slapping labels like "brutal dictator" on leaders who don't toe the neoliberal line.


To be fair, it was a little more complicated than that, though, wasn't it.

Wikipedia:

Because of the Syrian Civil War which began in March 2011, Syria has the largest refugee population in the world and voting for refugees in certain foreign countries began at Syrian embassies several days before voting in Syria.[1] Domestic and foreign-based Syrian opposition groups boycotted the election and the vote did not take place in large parts of Syria under rebel control.[1][2][3] The areas under Kurdish militia control also did not allow voting due to the refusal of the government to recognize their claim for regional autonomy, though some people traveled to government–controlled areas to vote.[4]

Some rebel groups vowed to disrupt the elections in any way possible, including bombing and shelling polling stations and government-controlled areas.[5][6][7][8] Another statement, issued by the Ajnad al-Sham Islamic Union, the Sham Corps, the Army of Mujahedeen and the Islamic Front, said they would not attack voters but warned people to stay at home "in case the Syrian government did"; there were 50 reported deaths from the shelling by the rebels.[9]

Bashar al-Assad was sworn in for his third seven-year term on July 16, 2014 in the presidential palace in Damascus.[10] The Gulf Cooperation Council, the European Union and the United States dismissed the election as illegitimate.[11][12][13][14] Members of this coalition have been condemned by supporters of Assad for supposedly precipitating the civil war through what they claim is the invasion of Syria which is illegal under international law, the UN charter and for providing material and financial support for the terrorist groups.[15][16][17][18][19][20] Attempts to hold an election under the circumstances of a civil war were criticized by UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon and it was widely reported that the elections lacked independent election monitoring.[21][22] An international delegation from more than 30 countries, led by the head of the Islamic Consultative Assembly of Iran's Committee on National Security, issued a statement claiming the election "happened in its constitutional time and date in a transparent democratic way", was "free and fair" and held in a "democratic environment, contrary to Western propaganda".[23][24]
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby American Dream » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:18 pm

Trolling is in the eye of the beholder and I'm not calling you one. Since we are a group board, group dynamics are an essential part of what goes on here. While you maintain a generally mild demeanor and are less inclined to personal attack than many, your presence here can not be considered apart from those of varied shades of gray who jump on board to take your "side".

The theme constantly comes back to engagement, the claim to want discussion with me. I post a great deal of substantive comment as articles and on this theme especially, I'm often content to let it go at that. I feel that this sort of approach is better for the board, to be quite honest.

I am quite within my rights to engage with whom I choose, when I choose- provided I obey the other posted guidelines. Just as is true for everyone else.



Elvis » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:05 am wrote:
But you've never addressed in any depth my responses, which include much more than just words. I've presented a ton of persuasive evidence that you choose to simply shrug off without any counterpoint. That's your right, just please don't call me a troll for responding to posted articles.
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby Jerky » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:06 pm

What about if it was 30%? Or 25%? Or 15%?

Elvis » 24 Apr 2018 15:42 wrote:Maybe it was only 70%. Even at 51%, Assad commanded a bigger share of the vote than Trump did in the U.S. By that measure, Assad is more legitimate than Trump. By any measure, Assad is the legitimate, constitutional president of Syria. You can believe U.S. propaganda if you like. Personally, I'm not buying it any more than I did in 2003.


Jerky » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:55 am wrote:
Elvis » 24 Apr 2018 13:36 wrote:
Syria's tyrant


The "tyrant" who was re-elected with 78% of the vote in an election judged fair by international election monitors.

Imperialist sympathizers never tire of slapping labels like "brutal dictator" on leaders who don't toe the neoliberal line.


To be fair, it was a little more complicated than that, though, wasn't it.

Wikipedia:

Because of the Syrian Civil War which began in March 2011, Syria has the largest refugee population in the world and voting for refugees in certain foreign countries began at Syrian embassies several days before voting in Syria.[1] Domestic and foreign-based Syrian opposition groups boycotted the election and the vote did not take place in large parts of Syria under rebel control.[1][2][3] The areas under Kurdish militia control also did not allow voting due to the refusal of the government to recognize their claim for regional autonomy, though some people traveled to government–controlled areas to vote.[4]

Some rebel groups vowed to disrupt the elections in any way possible, including bombing and shelling polling stations and government-controlled areas.[5][6][7][8] Another statement, issued by the Ajnad al-Sham Islamic Union, the Sham Corps, the Army of Mujahedeen and the Islamic Front, said they would not attack voters but warned people to stay at home "in case the Syrian government did"; there were 50 reported deaths from the shelling by the rebels.[9]

Bashar al-Assad was sworn in for his third seven-year term on July 16, 2014 in the presidential palace in Damascus.[10] The Gulf Cooperation Council, the European Union and the United States dismissed the election as illegitimate.[11][12][13][14] Members of this coalition have been condemned by supporters of Assad for supposedly precipitating the civil war through what they claim is the invasion of Syria which is illegal under international law, the UN charter and for providing material and financial support for the terrorist groups.[15][16][17][18][19][20] Attempts to hold an election under the circumstances of a civil war were criticized by UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon and it was widely reported that the elections lacked independent election monitoring.[21][22] An international delegation from more than 30 countries, led by the head of the Islamic Consultative Assembly of Iran's Committee on National Security, issued a statement claiming the election "happened in its constitutional time and date in a transparent democratic way", was "free and fair" and held in a "democratic environment, contrary to Western propaganda".[23][24]
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:20 pm

Jerky » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:06 pm wrote:What about if it was 30%? Or 25%? Or 15%?



Are you drawing those percentages from a source, or out of the ether? Let's see the source for those figures.
Last edited by Belligerent Savant on Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby Jerky » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:20 pm

I got them from exactly the same place Elvis got his.

J.
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:28 pm

.

According to Wikipedia -- the same source you cited above -- it was 88%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_pr ... tion,_2014


An international delegation from more than 30 countries, led by the head of the Islamic Consultative Assembly of Iran's Committee on National Security, issued a statement claiming the election "happened in its constitutional time and date in a transparent democratic way", was "free and fair" and held in a "democratic environment..."

Nominee: Bashar al-Assad
Party: Ba'ath Party
Popular vote: 10,319,723
Percentage: 88.7%

Nominee: Hassan al-Nouri
Party: NIACS
Popular vote: 500,279
Percentage: 4.3%
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby Jerky » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:33 pm

I think you're confused, BS. I'm referring to Elvis' hypothetical "Maybe it was only 70%. Even at 51%".

Hence my "What if?"

Also, you also seem to have missed the rather important implications of the paragraphs from that wikipedia page that I excerpted, above.

Hope this helps!

J.
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:39 pm

.

Anything can be true, is that it?

I didn't miss the content. I got it. There are other sources besides Wikipedia that corroborate the results of the popular vote.

Dig, and ye shall find.
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby Jerky » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:50 pm

Belligerent Savant » 24 Apr 2018 18:39 wrote:.

Anything can be true, is that it?


No, that's not it.

I think it's pretty clear what I was doing: Pointing out that Elvis was high-balling Assad's level of support without any accompanying evidence except results from an election that were conducted in the middle of a hot war, where voters were under the watchful eye of Assad's military, and that were determined to be fair by exactly ONE pro-Assad, pro-Baathist organization, by offering up some alternative possible percentages pulled from the exact same place that he pulled his... ie out of thin air.

It's really not that complicated. Asking me for "sources" on that makes you look kind of foolish, to be honest.

J.
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:10 pm

.

Uh-huh.

The election results are in line with reporting from those that have spent time in Syria, with Syrian civilians, documenting and reporting on sentiment, free of Western propaganda.

By all means, share any boots-on-the-ground reporting that corraborates the version you're presenting here.
(Bonus points if you're able to source it without relying on Western MSM!)
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:17 pm

but we can use eastern MSM?
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:28 pm

.
Elections are tampered with folks -- I think we've all established that well enough by now. Internationally and domestically, both by external and internal factions. Happens here, happens elsewhere.

Did Assad win the popular vote by 88%? It's certainly plausible the margin may have been closer than those results indicate.

But civilian sentiment in Syria offers perspectives markedly different than what we're told here in the States.

Here's an example:

Carla Ortiz:

29:18
I mean right now it looks like Assad is winning and people are getting to be able to take back their country a little bit, and right away, they do this gas attack, so then the United States starts bombing the crap out of them. This is just unbelievable and when we tell the truth about it they're gonna call you a conspiracy theorist. Well the thing is that I dare anybody to call me a conspiracy theorist and come along with proof.
You know the footage I have, and I can back any single thing that I'm saying because I have real footage, number one; number two, I arrived in Syria for the first time in February 2016 -- the government of Syria had control only over 35% of the country the rest of the country was taken by jihadists or armed groups.
There's no space, there is no space for extremism in Syria. This is one of the reasons why Syria was always hated by some of the neighboring countries, because what people don't know is Syria is a secular state , women are protected by the Constitution there; they cannot be forced to be covered by religion nor by society; minorities are protected also much more than any other [Country in the region].
Not only that but the vice-president, and I bet nobody knows this, the vice-president of Syria is a woman, the president of the Parliament in Syria is a woman, the first judge in all of the Middle East as a woman was Syrian, and 30% of the ministries in Syria are led by women. By law, most of the principals of high school are led also by women.
That's why you can see me when I'm reporting what I'm saying I am with a t-shirt, if whether it is tight clothes or not, I am free to be however I can be. You see the reports of these two famous reporters, I don't want to smear them, from CNN, she was on the ground completely covered in Black, you could only see her eyes. This reporter was covered up in Syria and saying she was there, but I was in the area where it was already liberated from the terrorists, okay? She was in the area protected by the terrorists, you know, and asking the world for the freedom of these people, which, the freedom of these people means the imposition of fundamentalism and Sharia law.
The most important thing is that people don't know that Assad made up this law in 2006, when he discovered that some girls that were in the borders of the extremist countries were being forced by the parents to stay at home. He made this law that every single Syrian woman shall finish high school by law, otherwise she and the father will go to prison. So this was the best option to protect the women and this caused a revolution in Saudi Arabia, where women were asking for the same rights as in Syria, they were asking, why can't we all get an education or no Haram.
33:22
In the Middle East, it is a hard and complicated position for a woman. Where are all the women in the world, where all the Liberals in the world, where are all the gay and lesbians around the world standing for the right of Syrians? Syrians won't judge you or take you to prison if you're gay of course because of the society is decided by the Constitution.
Now are they gonna call me an Assad apologist? No, guess what, I don't care about Assad. Istand by the people and what the people of Syria right now want whether we like it or not it is Assad to stay in power, because they would choose him over anyother terrorists because they don't want this fundamentalism and they want to live in a country that coexist togetherin peace the way they've done for all these years.
34:34
Who are we to impose the democracy that we think is perfect that it's not even working for us and who are we to demand a change of regime because it's gonna be okay for our personal interests of the Western policy and finally we don't have to agree we don't have to like Assad we need to respect the people of Syria and we need to let them take the decision they want to take. In the last election in 2013 which was an open election and overseen by the U.S., Assad won with 78% or 82%.
It probably hurts our interests the pipelines the whole a cold war that we still have with Russia it maybe does but we've seen it -- is it right or wrong? Only the Syrians have the right to decide and so what people don't understand isif we get rid of Assad something's gonna replace him. We don't have a replacement for Assad, just like we don't have a replacement in Libya. And now Libya is a failed state, it's a haven for terrorists and there's open slave markets now, so that's what the CIA in the United States is gonna do to Syria, and the people of Syria are saying: no we don't want that, Assad is actually our leader and we'll decide who our leader is and the CIA in the United States Israel and Saudi Arabia have a different idea of who's supposed to run Syria and that's exactly what's going on and that's what they don't want us to say.

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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby Jerky » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:03 pm

"Those who've spent time in Syria"... like Russian mercenaries? How about the White Helmets?

I watched the Jimmy Dore video Elvis posted, this despite Dore having by now long established his useful idiot bonafides. I noted with interest that the lady who produced the video from Syria seems to think it's reasonable to assume that the White Helmets had the motive, opportunity and wherewithal to "stage" a "fake" gas attack on a civilian population, but she never considered the possibility that maybe forces loyal to the Assad regime would had the motive, opportunity and wherewithal to plant an ISIS flag next to a tiny stenciled sign denoting a bombed out building in the middle of nowhere, with no electricity, to be "official White Helmet HQ".

Which do YOU think would be easier to pull off, BS?

J.

Belligerent Savant » 24 Apr 2018 19:10 wrote:.

Uh-huh.

The election results are in line with reporting from those that have spent time in Syria, with Syrian civilians, documenting and reporting on sentiment, free of Western propaganda.

By all means, share any boots-on-the-ground reporting that corraborates the version you're presenting here.
(Bonus points if you're able to source it without relying on Western MSM!)
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby Belligerent Savant » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:21 pm

.

If you are of the opinion that the White Helmets are a legit outfit and are there for humanitarian causes (rather than furthering Imperialist causes/US govt propaganda efforts), there is nothing further to discuss here.

Carry on.

(I'm tickled that you now identify Carla Ortiz -- and surely anyone else reporting directly from Syria that counters the official propaganda narratives of the US govt -- as a 'russian mercenary'. That cast net keeps expanding, huh)
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Re: Putin's Troll Factories

Postby DrEvil » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:37 pm

AD wrote in response to Elvis:
While you maintain a generally mild demeanor and are less inclined to personal attack than many, your presence here can not be considered apart from those of varied shades of gray who jump on board to take your "side".


Ignoring everything else, this is an incredibly poor argument. It's nothing but guilt by association. Using this logic you can dismiss everyone who disagrees with you on something if just one of those people are less than perfectly civil about it.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
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