A well regulated militia

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby General Patton » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:27 pm

https://medium.com/@AviWoolf/gun-contro ... a90833a35e

Few might know this, but until the 20th century, the right — nay, the duty — to bear arms was just as sacred a right in Europe as it was in the United States. France considered it one of the rights won by the Revolution, where free citizens cannot be denied their right of self-defense by the evil nobility or the government. In Great Britain, purchase of arms was extremely easy — again, based on the Common Law idea of a free citizen’s rights.

Nor was this an exclusively “right-wing” idea. Yes, classical liberals were big on it, but traditional aristocratic conservatives were certainly not enthusiastic on the idea of giving the “lower sort” so much firepower. To the contrary, it was left-wing movements, both socialist and anarchist, who saw the people bearing arms in a militia as an important guarantee against tyranny. So thoroughly ingrained was this idea among socialists, that many even in the Bolshevik movement preferred such a militia over a standing army which might bring back “Bonapartism” (i.e., a military coup).

As for gun control being a tyrannical weapon — yes, until very recently, governments or people in charge explicitly disarmed the people in order to keep them compliant. This is true regardless of whether they were knights and lords keeping down the peasantry, democracies fearing “troublesome” minorities (often on a racist basis), or autocracies in Russia and Turkey (or modern dictatorships to this day). That the governments in question would likely win most fights against rebellions is beside the point — wars are bloody, messy and costly and worth avoiding if possible. The belief that an armed people can deter or at least be a focal point of resistance to tyranny is a belief shared by those same tyrants.

...

But again, that’s missing the key point, once a mainstay of the left: a people about to be crushed have the right to resist — to exact a cost in blood, even if they ultimately lose. The point of the armed populace was not that every revolt would be successful — even the most rabid pro-gun people in the US would acknowledge that — but that it would cost. Yes, all the ghetto and camp revolts were crushed, but some of the mechanism was slowed, and at least some SS people got a dirt nap instead of living out their lives in peace in the Eastern Bloc or in the west after ludicrously short sentences (or when they belonged in a home, not a jail). A few thousand here, a few thousand there did manage to escape and live beyond the war.
...
Which brings us back to today. As we’ve established, armed revolt would not have prevented the Holocaust. But the threats against which citizens arm themselves today — criminals, drug cartels, terrorist organizations, mass shooters — are not the Wehrmacht. They are not a millions-strong armed force with devastating weapons of war. They possess neither the training, nor equipment, nor the territory to be thus. Most gun attacks involve at most a few individuals. Against this, even a pistol-armed citizen with some training can be useful — after all, a Waffen SS unit will not be coming in after a successful thwarting. So the comparison has little value for either side.
штрафбат вперед
User avatar
General Patton
 
Posts: 959
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:57 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby Twyla LaSarc » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:16 pm

Another wrench in the process of summing up the culture of (at least) the midwest is migration. Definiitely a self-selecting phenomena that is throwing off any thought of rational political balance in the flyover.

Anyone with half a brain and no family land or money, who aspires to something more than living in the closet of one's choice, tends to leave sooner or later. The only suicide I have heard of from amongst my peers is that of an amazingly cool classmate who stayed and tried to change the place. Fat lot of good that did him in the end.
“The Radium Water Worked Fine until His Jaw Came Off”
User avatar
Twyla LaSarc
 
Posts: 1040
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:50 pm
Location: On the 8th hole
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:19 pm

Six States with Highest Level of Gun Regulation and Firearms Homicide Rate per 100,000
California 4.2
Connecticut 2.3
Massachusetts 1.6
New Jersey 3.1
New York 2.6

Six States with Lowest Level of Gun Regulation and Firearms Homicide Rate per 100,000
Alabama 6.7
Arizona 4.9
Kentucky 3.3
Louisiana 9.9
Mississippi 7.2
Wyoming 1.4

The average firearms homicide death rate in the six states with the most regulation is 2.3 per 100,000 residents. In the six states with the least it is 5.6. Those numbers are from the latest 10 year period released by the CDC (2004-2013). Death certificates must be submitted to the CDC, so the numbers are highly accurate.

I did not include all manners of intent, which would include accidental and suicide, or the numbers would be even more obvious (Ex: Louisiana 18.8 versus Massachusetts 3.4). Bottom line, gun regulations work. There will always be anomalies such as Chicago and Wyoming, but evidence is clear.
User avatar
Iamwhomiam
 
Posts: 6572
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:47 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby PufPuf93 » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:05 pm

Iamwhomiam » Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:19 am wrote:
Six States with Highest Level of Gun Regulation and Firearms Homicide Rate per 100,000
California 4.2
Connecticut 2.3
Massachusetts 1.6
New Jersey 3.1
New York 2.6

Six States with Lowest Level of Gun Regulation and Firearms Homicide Rate per 100,000
Alabama 6.7
Arizona 4.9
Kentucky 3.3
Louisiana 9.9
Mississippi 7.2
Wyoming 1.4

The average firearms homicide death rate in the six states with the most regulation is 2.3 per 100,000 residents. In the six states with the least it is 5.6. Those numbers are from the latest 10 year period released by the CDC (2004-2013). Death certificates must be submitted to the CDC, so the numbers are highly accurate.

I did not include all manners of intent, which would include accidental and suicide, or the numbers would be even more obvious (Ex: Louisiana 18.8 versus Massachusetts 3.4). Bottom line, gun regulations work. There will always be anomalies such as Chicago and Wyoming, but evidence is clear.


Are the averages for the two groups population weighted?

Seems that the top group of states with the lower average firearms homicide rate have larger populations, more urban residents, higher average education and income, and are more "blue" or liberal states.

One could wager a rural redneck is more likely to own a firearm and shoot someone than an educated and economically blessed urban liberal.

I am of mixed opinion about firearm regulation. Likely the best approach to address firearm problems is indirect; rather to to change the world view of individuals in society rather than force by regulation.
User avatar
PufPuf93
 
Posts: 1884
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:29 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby General Patton » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:25 pm

PufPuf93 » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:05 pm wrote:
Are the averages for the two groups population weighted?

Seems that the top group of states with the lower average firearms homicide rate have larger populations, more urban residents, higher average education and income, and are more "blue" or liberal states.

One could wager a rural redneck is more likely to own a firearm and shoot someone than an educated and economically blessed urban liberal.

I am of mixed opinion about firearm regulation. Likely the best approach to address firearm problems is indirect; rather to to change the world view of individuals in society rather than force by regulation.


That's not the gun homicide rate, that's gun ownership to gun homicide rate. If it was straight gun homicide adjusted for population DC and Maryland would be at the very top. Neither are strongholds of rural redneck Republicans. Special mention to Chicago that has mastered the art of creative accounting to keep Illinois out of the top spots:

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/May-2014/Chicago-crime-rates/
The change stunned officers. Current and former veteran detectives who reviewed the Groves case at Chicago’s request were just as incredulous. Says a retired high-level detective, “How can you be tied to a chair and gagged, with no clothes on, and that’s a [noncriminal] death investigation?” (He, like most of the nearly 40 police sources interviewed for this story, declined to be identified by name, citing fears of disciplinary action or other retribution.)

Was it just a coincidence, some wondered, that the reclassification occurred less than two weeks before the end of the year, when the city of Chicago’s final homicide numbers for 2013 would be tallied? “They essentially wiped away one of the murders in the city, which is crazy,” says a police insider. “But that’s the kind of shit that’s going on.”
штрафбат вперед
User avatar
General Patton
 
Posts: 959
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:57 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby 82_28 » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:34 pm

Bear in mind you would have to drive quite a distance in WY to find someone to shoot. WY is empty.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
User avatar
82_28
 
Posts: 11194
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:34 am
Location: North of Queen Anne
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:10 pm

Google the first line, "Six States with Lowest Level of Gun Regulation and Firearms Homicide Rate per 100,000" or go directly to the CDC to download their firearm mortality stats. The other reporting agency that maintains homicide records is the FBI.
User avatar
Iamwhomiam
 
Posts: 6572
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:47 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby SonicG » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:17 am

General Patton » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:27 am wrote:
https://medium.com/@AviWoolf/gun-contro ... a90833a35e

Which brings us back to today. As we’ve established, armed revolt would not have prevented the Holocaust. But the threats against which citizens arm themselves today — criminals, drug cartels, terrorist organizations, mass shooters — are not the Wehrmacht. They are not a millions-strong armed force with devastating weapons of war. They possess neither the training, nor equipment, nor the territory to be thus. Most gun attacks involve at most a few individuals. Against this, even a pistol-armed citizen with some training can be useful — after all, a Waffen SS unit will not be coming in after a successful thwarting. So the comparison has little value for either side.


Yeah, and well, those "threats" should and can be diffused by other means. Drug cartels? Who is arming themselves against them? And they are not well armed? Seems like a call for a more vigilante justice as opposed to any social justice....yawn. Looking at other stuff by that guy, it is easy to see his allegiance...
"a poiminint tidal wave in a notion of dynamite"
User avatar
SonicG
 
Posts: 1279
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:29 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby General Patton » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:59 am

SonicG » Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:17 pm wrote:
General Patton » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:27 am wrote:
https://medium.com/@AviWoolf/gun-contro ... a90833a35e

Which brings us back to today. As we’ve established, armed revolt would not have prevented the Holocaust. But the threats against which citizens arm themselves today — criminals, drug cartels, terrorist organizations, mass shooters — are not the Wehrmacht. They are not a millions-strong armed force with devastating weapons of war. They possess neither the training, nor equipment, nor the territory to be thus. Most gun attacks involve at most a few individuals. Against this, even a pistol-armed citizen with some training can be useful — after all, a Waffen SS unit will not be coming in after a successful thwarting. So the comparison has little value for either side.


Yeah, and well, those "threats" should and can be diffused by other means. Drug cartels? Who is arming themselves against them? And they are not well armed? Seems like a call for a more vigilante justice as opposed to any social justice....yawn. Looking at other stuff by that guy, it is easy to see his allegiance...


Social justice is going to stop drug cartels?
штрафбат вперед
User avatar
General Patton
 
Posts: 959
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:57 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby SonicG » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:13 am

Drug use is a social problem, n'est-ce pas? Or should we just steel ourselves for an endless future of drug trafficking combined with major pharma getting people hooked on opiates and then forcing them to buy in the streets? Deep ties between banks, pharma, cartels and politicians (especially in the third world) won't be affected at all by whether an American citizen has guns or not...
"a poiminint tidal wave in a notion of dynamite"
User avatar
SonicG
 
Posts: 1279
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:29 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby General Patton » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:46 am

SonicG » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:13 am wrote:Drug use is a social problem, n'est-ce pas? Or should we just steel ourselves for an endless future of drug trafficking combined with major pharma getting people hooked on opiates and then forcing them to buy in the streets? Deep ties between banks, pharma, cartels and politicians (especially in the third world) won't be affected at all by whether an American citizen has guns or not...


Drug cartels are now making more profit off of avocados than drugs. They use farmers for slave labor. How does legalizing drugs change this?

http://www.vocativ.com/underworld/crime/avocado/
n Mexico, the avocado is called aguacate. It has been a staple food here for thousands of years. It’s also Michoacán’s principal export: 72 percent of all Mexican avocado plantations are located in the state. More than 80 percent of Michoacán’s avocados are exported to the United States—the bulk of them of the fatty Hass variety. In the latter half of 2012 and the early part of 2013, the U.S. imported nearly $1 billion worth of avocados from this state. Not surprisingly, a common nickname for the fruit is oro verde, green gold, because it yields more cash than any other crop—including marijuana.


Oh, and I could raise the question of just what happens to the people who die without any means to defend themselves while we wait for drugs to be legalized, but I believe cocaine and heroin will be legalized any week now.
штрафбат вперед
User avatar
General Patton
 
Posts: 959
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:57 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby Harvey » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:37 am

SonicG » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:13 am wrote:Drug use is a social problem, n'est-ce pas?


Drug use is not only a social good, it's a social necessity. Tea, coffee, sugar, alcohol, nicotine (Drug=consciousness altering substance).

Drug abuse is a social problem, probably more accurately an economic lever.

The drug problem is a crime problem. Therefore the drug problem is a prohibition effect.

Also re. Patton, abuse of labour is an effect of capital, not drug agriculture. Therefore, slavery is an economic effect.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4165
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby SonicG » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:52 am

Well, it is isn't going to happen tomorrow so why bother trying...I'll just sit here with my guns loaded so no one takes my stuff until I'm dead...I would never just argue for the legalization of heroin and cocaine as some miracle measure but there obviously had to be some major reworking of (illegal) drug policy together with an effort to truly eradicate the causes as opposed to trying to wage war on the cartels...Trying to say that they would still exist without drugs, just avocados, is a pretty absurd reduction of the whole situation.
"a poiminint tidal wave in a notion of dynamite"
User avatar
SonicG
 
Posts: 1279
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:29 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby Harvey » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:56 am

SonicG » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:52 am wrote:I'll just sit here with my guns loaded so no one takes my stuff until I'm dead...


Maybe then, stuff is the real problem.

I sit here with stuff but no gun. No one is taking or has ever taken my stuff. Perhaps then the problem is not do I have a gun or not, but why people value stuff so much where you are, that they will take it from you if you do not have a gun.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


Eden Ahbez
User avatar
Harvey
 
Posts: 4165
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 4:49 am
Blog: View Blog (20)

Re: A well regulated militia

Postby SonicG » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:19 am

Harvey » Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:56 pm wrote:
SonicG » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:52 am wrote:I'll just sit here with my guns loaded so no one takes my stuff until I'm dead...


Maybe then, stuff is the real problem.

I sit here with stuff but no gun. No one is taking or has ever taken my stuff. Perhaps then the problem is not do I have a gun or not, but why people value stuff so much where you are, that they will take it from you if you do not have a gun.


Sorry, I forgot my <sarcasm> tags...Totally agree with you. Fetishistic consumption functions to separate us from our true desires...
"a poiminint tidal wave in a notion of dynamite"
User avatar
SonicG
 
Posts: 1279
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:29 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 40 guests