Segregation: A Modest Proposal

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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:42 am

JackRiddler wrote:
tapitsbo » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:32 pm wrote:What makes it so important for you to question discussion of it happening at all?


Hey, it's page 14 of this thread. Have it as long as you like.


It's only one question, you don't have to answer it or anything.
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:03 am

tapitsbo » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:32 pm wrote:The cops getting let off for murder is a bit like Syrian "moderate rebels" getting off for the same, IMHO. Yes racism against blacks is real (the idea that race is a European construct is real too, up to a point) but then again the proportionately more frequent black-on-white violence is subject to a media blackout lately.


Wow. I don't know which media you're exposed to, that you've detected a blackout on crime stories. It's not the case with the tabloids or the local news over here, I must say. And are black people (so identified by social consensus) who commit violence against white people (so identified by social consensus) not being arrested, tried, imprisoned -- and this at higher rates than when the other way around?
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:05 am

I was getting my idea of a blackout from things like the asymmetry between coverage of different terrorists/random shooters/etc. across the West. Maybe I'm getting my ideas from reading media like The Guardian which I need to look at practically daily to find out what "party line" is going to be normalized among polite folks who spazz out should one deviate a millimetre from it.

It's not possible for me to speak to an asymmetry in sentencing for violence although I'm not sure if something like Rotherham counts as violence to you. Or maybe that was just a made up right-wing psy-op? :rofl2

There's definitely an asymmetry between group representation. On the other hand, I've actually met non-white people who were against people of their own background the way usually only whites are though.

I don't really have a beef with people who are some kind of racial "other". It's more the bizarre attitudes of other white people that lead me to do things like post what I'm typing right now.

It seems like your tabloid exposure is greater than mine. Their narrative has zero legitimacy anyways and I'm guessing it's in line with Murdoch style bullshit, in any case.

Thanks for the rhetorical lessons though, you're good at it.

You're confirming my suspicion that it's important for you to shift discussion away from the segregation meme.

What to lose from actual solidarity across different groups? Either include whites or don't be surprised when they start acting in their own interests.

And no, the sneaky groups/orders/fraternities of "Western elites" aren't in the interests of 99 percent of white people or anyone else for that matter.
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:07 am

tapitsbo » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:05 am wrote:I was getting my idea of a blackout from things like the asymmetry between coverage of different terrorists/random shooters/etc. across the West. Maybe I'm getting my ideas from reading media like The Guardian which I need to look at practically daily to find out what "party line" is going to be normalized among polite folks who spazz out should one deviate a millimetre from it.


Where are you? What does the Guardian have to do with how media is consumed in the United States?

You're confirming my suspicion that it's important for you to shift discussion away from the segregation meme.


I was given this mission by Tavistock, Soros and Bilderberg. That's one theory. The other is that I wandered in to this thread and responded to the bullshit as I saw it.

What to lose from actual solidarity across different groups? Either include whites or don't be surprised when they start acting in their own interests.


The problem with "white" people (a signifier for the non-racialized majority in Anglo-America, mostly working class) has always been that so many of them are successfully conned into imagining they have "own" interests as "white" people.

Oh, but wait: They've been excluded by some student club in Toronto and their Facebook page. (Have you ever been excluded in real life as a white person, by the way? From actual privileges, I mean?)

The PTB historically and today still gain a lot more from promoting simple white supremacy (as with the entire Republican Party at this point) than from your mostly imaginary scenario of playing on racial division.

And no, the sneaky groups/orders/fraternities of "Western elites" aren't in the interests of 99 percent of white people or anyone else for that matter.


So you need to think, otherwise there'd be others more victimized than you, which would be terrible! You might have a part in this system!
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:35 am

And how have the PTB reacted to the idea that each group should represent themselves in a decentralized, mutually recognized fashion? They have been pretty violently against it.

The official policy of "white supremacy" (which is slapped on any attempt to speak for themselves by white people who were assimilated in North America and cut off from any meaningful previous identity) was indeed real but it is no longer real. "Quebecois" is an ethnic group that has political representation. "Anglo" is not a coherent group in the same way - it mostly refers to people who were governed by the English. The American melting pot does indeed likewise come from white supremacy but it's left an awful lot of people with precious little identity in its wake. Would you rather segregate them out into their own parochial, inevitably fascist in-group or include them with the rest of the country if not the human race?

White people's "own" interests can only be gauged by a sober look at how other groups represent themselves - which is usually that they have a group interest, often one that is much richer and more valuable than a simple victim-narrative (as academic leftist identity politics boils cultures down into in a 21st century melting pot of its own.) Like I said, my issue is not with the "racialized" students but rather with white people who "can't think in groups" as I heard somebody say about themselves the other day. All of this bizarre academic stuff is cheered on by white people ultimately drawing on the bizarre legacy of Protestantism in particular (it's obvious to me that formerly Protestant countries are the only ones where the self-hatred is so intense. I know there are people who would travel to Greece from North America to lecture people there about how they're evil racists. I'm not about to try it though lol.)

Throughout my life a very large proportion of the people I've known have been non-white and it's struck me for a long time now that they were raised with much, much less stupid belief systems than the PC, post-Protestant mindset that was the default for me.

Most of the planet seems to be able to "think in groups"! I don't notice whites who work against their own people doing much good for other groups anyhow, especially the markedly less privileged ones.

It would be awfully nice if these "group interests" weren't pitted against each other, as TPTB do indeed encourage. Why wouldn't you be against the divide and conquer tactics? It's not impossible to trace their lineage in part to very well-connected intellectuals.

I'm pretty sure "white" is not a signifier for what you're saying it is, anymore. Maybe forty years ago. Now people who were colonized by the Soviet project, for instance, are considered guilty of white privilege, not entirely without reason but definitely in a way that is absurd in its application.

I am 100% sure you aren't working for TPTB literally but are instead enjoying contempt for someone you see as beneath you as per your tabloid comment.

Notice how I'm actually rejecting the idea that being a victim is good?

Why do you object to people calling out the segregation? Like I said its only effect will be to make whites more cohesive and hostile.

Of course I am a cog in the system, you seem a lot more well greased in that regard. Bravo.

Feel free to call out bullshit, as you see it. I will respond unless I'm banned. The thread is about ethnic/racial segregation, why do you (apparently although you haven't spelt it out) support it?
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby Joao » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:00 am

trolling.

7/10, I lol'ed at "anyhow" but am substracting a point for overplaying it toward the end.
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:22 am

tl;dr: the segregation is more than just segregation

yet is it not worthy of comment. lol... Cities... will create harmony between all classes and peoples of this earth :thumbsup
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby Luther Blissett » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:48 am

I believe that in almost any meeting wherein black and brown activists (especially the more radical projects) participate, I've witnessed firsthand them being talked down to, talked over, their opinions and experiences minimized, ignored, not given a chance to speak. I've almost certainly been guilty of it myself, especially in my teens and twenties, probably because I was in a room filled with mostly people like me who had the free leisure time to engage in organization and activism. Even though my heart was in the right place and I thought I was "working with" everyone and giving opinions that I thought "helped" or "mattered", what I was really doing was minimizing experiences. I think that's what this all comes down to.

I don't think organizing is easy for oppressed groups in this country. As a matter of fact, I know it is extremely difficult. One project of which I am a part, without giving away too much, is aimed at one particularly racist act, one which even the posters in this thread would be against. This is a real life quality of life / public health issue that only affects people in poverty - in this particular case, African Americans, latinos (mostly Dominican), whites, and Vietnamese. Based on the nature of the activism, we need to build consensus around some of the actions, and cannot get people in poverty to all come to a meeting at the same time. You just can't do it. And even though it happens less with this group, it's still really bad when you watch people for whom this is not a life-or-death situation talk over other people, usually black, as if they know what's better for them. I mean sometimes they might because they've had some experiences with organizing or fighting power, but still - we've got to listen.

It's best to work together but after having one's experiences minimized and being talked over or ignored in every meeting, it's got to wear on you after awhile. I already know they're aiming squarely at the power elite like I am, and based on my experiences I have to understand not wanting to have their experiences minimized or to be passed over in meetings for the fifteenth time. It's just what we privileged people do when we're in a room together as the dominant cultural force.
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:05 am

Most of the planet seems to be able to "think in groups"! I don't notice whites who work against their own people doing much good for other groups anyhow, especially the markedly less privileged ones.


What do you expect from race traitors? Many of these whites don't even know that the other whites are "their own people"! They lack proper race consciousness, they think they're Americans or citizens of the world, or maybe just individuals who don't belong to the white people. This is unlike everyone else. Other than white people in America, every nation, ethnicity and group in the world is tribal, self-interested, aggressive, united, closed and hateful of outsiders. They "think in groups," constructively working in their own interests. They do not think in racial categories, like in North America, but, you know, in groups. This is human nature. Only Protestant whites lack it, which is why I guess they're at the bottom of the racial hierarchy? Or on their way, certainly.

These self-handicapping Protestant whites, who bought into liberal ideas of humanity and civilization and feminism! You see what happens? White people are now being excluded from meetings of non-white students in Toronto. This is the equivalent of segregation. It's just like Jim Crow. The white people have been too good for the world, and look what they get in return. Okay, when they meet as "white" people they don't get the same kind of state violence in response. In fact sometimes state infiltrators might take part in their groups for years, sometimes the local police will even be legit members.

But at the same time, do you know what's worse? Liberals label them! It really hurts because these liberals think they're so smart! They say mean things about the good white people like tapitsbo, who work for their own people. The liberals aren't at all polite. They summarize the ideas of the good white people like tapitsbo using a terrible rhetoric of contempt on the Internet. This alienates the poor white people, who would otherwise be all kumbaya. Those liberal leftists, they're the real problem, because they don't like rural white people, and say mean and sarcastic things, and are thus responsible for racism. No one would be a racist if liberals weren't labeling them as such. The system would be totally race neutral and cheap homeloans would flow to all.

Also, the liberals don't condemn the segregation practiced by some students in Toronto, which really only serves the interests of the PTB. The PTB are laughing because the black people for some reason are organizing themselves, all by themselves, and this provokes white people into being racist. If only black people wouldn't organize themselves and make all this noise as black people! If only they weren't always out in the open instead of hiding. Then white people wouldn't be provoked. Why can't we all get along?!
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby American Dream » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:08 am

The "white" nationalist argument- even in its most dissembling forms- just rings hollow to me.
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby General Patton » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:31 pm

Luther Blissett » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:48 am wrote:I believe that in almost any meeting wherein black and brown activists (especially the more radical projects) participate, I've witnessed firsthand them being talked down to, talked over, their opinions and experiences minimized, ignored, not given a chance to speak. I've almost certainly been guilty of it myself, especially in my teens and twenties, probably because I was in a room filled with mostly people like me who had the free leisure time to engage in organization and activism. Even though my heart was in the right place and I thought I was "working with" everyone and giving opinions that I thought "helped" or "mattered", what I was really doing was minimizing experiences. I think that's what this all comes down to.


The paternalistic white activist is the other target of this thread. White activists who don't practice what they preach and live in whiter neighborhoods than white nationalists. "Diversity and equality for everyone, just stay the fuck out of my neighborhood."

I don't think organizing is easy for oppressed groups in this country. As a matter of fact, I know it is extremely difficult. One project of which I am a part, without giving away too much, is aimed at one particularly racist act, one which even the posters in this thread would be against. This is a real life quality of life / public health issue that only affects people in poverty - in this particular case, African Americans, latinos (mostly Dominican), whites, and Vietnamese. Based on the nature of the activism, we need to build consensus around some of the actions, and cannot get people in poverty to all come to a meeting at the same time. You just can't do it. And even though it happens less with this group, it's still really bad when you watch people for whom this is not a life-or-death situation talk over other people, usually black, as if they know what's better for them. I mean sometimes they might because they've had some experiences with organizing or fighting power, but still - we've got to listen.


On a relative scale, it could be much harder to organize. Though as a general rule if you are oppressed it is hard to organize. My general critique of activism is that it's actions are often counter-productive to their stated goal, or at least non-productive. This doesn't apply to all activism but particularly to the symbolic and abstract kind that typically features drum circles and the like. These events are usually overwhelmingly white and done for the cameras as much as anything else. Contrast John Llewellyn Lewis or Cesar Chavez's work to the following...:
Image

Now I know someone will jump in here and say "Strawman!" but honestly I see this silly shit happening all of the time on the news. It's a great way to get attention. Actual activism doesn't get on CNN. The symbolic/abstract focused groups aren't good at capitalizing on attention received, except perhaps in padding their activist street-cred. But it is a great way to vent frustration without meaningful change.

It's best to work together but after having one's experiences minimized and being talked over or ignored in every meeting, it's got to wear on you after awhile. I already know they're aiming squarely at the power elite like I am, and based on my experiences I have to understand not wanting to have their experiences minimized or to be passed over in meetings for the fifteenth time. It's just what we privileged people do when we're in a room together as the dominant cultural force.


A group that cannot practice any discrimination at all in who it lets in is wide open to infiltrators and easily derailed.
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby Luther Blissett » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:23 pm

It sounds like we're in agreement on a number of points then. You've mentioned the white activists who live self-segregated in white communities but I don't think I have much if any experience working with people who live in areas like that on activism so I can't speak on that. I imagine I would find it personally offensive and would perceive some class issues. You mentioned someone by name upthread but I didn't know who that was.

Yeah, drum circles, puppet theater, etc. We had a real puppet problem here for awhile but I haven't seen a puppet in awhile.

I know that quite a few of my own projects have been nonproductive. Including one currently. Trying though.
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:25 pm

tapitsbo » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:05 am wrote:
You're confirming my suspicion that it's important for you to shift discussion away from the segregation meme.


Great detective work, yes.

Lost some coffee out my nose when I read this.
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:50 pm

"No Arabs in the lobby please, we want to feel safe"

Incredibly offensive in a multicultural society, no? And more to the point there would be pushback by the targeted group and rightfully so. When it's said about whites the situation isn't exactly equivalent, but the whites feel self-righteous moral vindication at their exclusion.

Activists that feel talked down to can self-aggregate into their own groups. Getting funded by the fees at a publically funded university where whites area minority and have been accused of violence or terrorism for trying to start their own student groups is setting a strange precedent. What's the endgame here? (sorry for the atrocious buzzword)

And JackRiddler obviously your rant is sarcastic and exaggerated but the general gist of it is accurate, isn't it? There's a spectrum from wanting to get along to open hostility and once you go a certain ways along it you can expect pushback. "Oh those embarrassing white people who won't just roll over and die so my vision of historical progress can be validated and I don't have to feel so embarrassed".

It's interesting that you think I feel everyone can get along - I don't. But who are white progressives really helping, anyways? Besides making themselves money as academics on the basis of other people's victimhood.

As to AD's comment, note that since the start of this thread i've been arguing against the white nationalist conceit that whites need their own state in North America. Group representation isn't nationalism or else we would be talking about all kinds of nationalisms in this context.

I have never been to a meeting of white people in my life. This forum was a big part of making me think about this stuff though. I used to read AD's copy and pastes in complete earnest not questioning a word. Now obviously I have my doubts about the narrative.
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Re: Segregation: A Modest Proposal

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:27 pm

tapitsbo » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:50 pm wrote:And JackRiddler obviously your rant is sarcastic and exaggerated but the general gist of it is accurate, isn't it?


We can agree that as a summary of your stated views it is highly accurate, and for this admission you have my thanks.

There's a spectrum from wanting to get along to open hostility and once you go a certain ways along it you can expect pushback. "Oh those embarrassing white people who won't just roll over and die so my vision of historical progress can be validated and I don't have to feel so embarrassed".


Yes, these are exactly the stakes: everyone who is not white to your eyes, including the race traitors in the midst of your (imaginary) white nation, are working toward the death of white people as such. That is what black people are doing when they meet on their own to discuss racism. Any "white" response to this threat is understandable.

It's interesting that you think I feel everyone can get along - I don't. But who are white progressives really helping, anyways? Besides making themselves money as academics on the basis of other people's victimhood.


That is ignorant in too many ways to count, such as the equivalence of "white progressives" with "academics." As for the latter, do you have any idea what academics make, or how? 59% are adjuncts, with employment conditions a cut above the gastronomy sector. Making controversial statements (or even statements that fucked-up crackers such as yourself consider "controversial") is dangerous to them. And yet many often go ahead and do it anyway, for no reason other than that believe what they say -- just like you, supposedly.

As for the tenured minority, they're already as high as they can go. All tenure means is they can speak with a relative lack of fear. By making "controversial" statements they don't rise any further, or sell more books (since barely anyone sells books, with exceptions numbering maybe 1 in 400), or get a bonus for making PR for the univesity. None of that. Perhaps you are thinking of the income models enjoyed by media pundits, like the Glenn Beck whom you sound just like, or by whores pimping PR in the corporate sector, or by the fake academics with the private think tanks.

It is of course also incredibly ignorant with respect to what drives people to organize against racism, as if predatory banking, slumlords and gentrification, low wages, pervasive discrimination, the war on drugs, differential justice, mass incarceration and frequent policing-by-murder would go ignored by the Freedmen, if only those white liberal academics and outside agitators would stop putting ideas in their heads!

As to AD's comment, note that since the start of this thread i've been arguing against the white nationalist conceit that whites need their own state in North America.


That's mighty white of you, tapitsbo. (And never mind that "whites" have their own states, all of them, by property ownership.) Just for the record, I will add that I'm totally against cannibalism.

I have never been to a meeting of white people in my life.


Excuse me, do you qualify as what in this society is called a white person? Then certainly you are lying, or engaging in an incredible act of self-delusion. I suppose you mean you have never been to an meeting of white supremacists who meet with the explicit purpose of advancing white supremacy? Such a shame you are now gradually being forced to do that by reading about uppity black students in Toronto!

This forum was a big part of making me think about this stuff though. I used to read AD's copy and pastes in complete earnest not questioning a word. Now obviously I have my doubts about the narrative.


Sure, AD provoked you into your new racist consciousness. By the way, I'm sure he's really raking it in, posting articles here to encourage others' victimhood. It's a great fucking business model.

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