Palestine

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Re: Palestine

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:59 am

Arab nations reject any Trump Israeli-Palestinian plan not on '67 lines
It is widely believed that Trump’s plan would allow Israel to retain all of its West Bank settlements, where some 430,000 of its citizens live.

16h
October 30, 2019 11:45

U.S. President Donald Trump speaks during a bilateral meeting on the sidelines of the 74th session of the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) in New York City, New York, U.S., September 25, 2019. (photo credit: REUTERS)
Arab nations have rejected any Israeli-Palestinian peace plan not based on the pre-1967 lines, as US special envoy Jared Kushner visited Israel and Saudi Arabia in advance of the publication of US President Donald Trump's Deal of the Century to resolve the conflict.

In an interview with Channel 13 Tuesday night, Kushner said that the Trump peace plan offered Israel regional opportunities and was important for its security.

“Having peace with the Palestinians is a critical step if they want to have long-term security in the region,” said Kushner. He is Trump’s son-in-law and the lead envoy on the plan.
On Monday at the UN Security Council, one Arab country after the other alluded to the plan, as they made statements in support of a two-state solution, which rests in part on the regional support of moderate Arab nations.

Earlier this year, Kushner stated that the plan would part from past initiatives, including the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, endorse by the Arab League. It offered Israel normalized ties in exchange for a two-state solutions at the 1967 lines with minimal, undefined territorial swaps.

It is widely believed that Trump’s plan would allow Israel to retain all 0f its West Bank settlements, where some 430,000 of its citizens live.

Kushner told Channel 13 that both Israelis and Palestinians would need to make compromises, but he gave no more specifics during the interview.
Latest articles from Jpost

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At the Security Council in New York, Jordan, Egypt, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, the Arab League and the Organization of Islamic Cooperation all spoke of the importance of a two-state solution at the '67 line, and of a peace plan that would fall in line with past international understandings. All of Israel’s government since the Six Day War have rejected a return to the pre-1967 lines, which were considered to be suicidal borders.

Saudi Ambassador to the UN Abdullah al-Mouallimi told the council that the Palestinian people were suffering under one of the most “heinous forms of occupation in our modern history.”

The Saudi envoy continued: "We believe that the Palestinian question is the key for the stability of the region. Any solution must be based on the two-state solution in line with international terms of reference and the Arab Peace Initiative of 2002, which calls for establishing a Palestinian state with the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital," al-Mouallimi said.

Bahrain's Ambassador Jamal Fares Alrowaiei similarly told the UNSC that his country also favored a solution based on the pre-1967 lines.

In June, his country hosted a US-led economic workshop that focused on financial solutions for the Palestinians.

On Monday, Alrowaiei said that, “a just comprehensive and lasting peace in the region cannot be achieved without resolving the Palestinian question and without granting the Palestinian people its legitimate right, similarly to other peoples, to establish its independent state along the borders of 1967 with east Jerusalem as capital, in line with the Arab Peace Initiative and relative international solutions.”

The "kingdom will spare no effort to ensure the development and the prosperity of the Palestinian people," he said, adding that "the international community must also assume its responsibilities and compel Israel to implement all relevant international resolutions."
https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conf ... nes-606241
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Palestine

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:20 pm

.


Harvey » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:01 am wrote:
according to the internationally agreed definition of genocide, Israel has been engaged in genocide since its foundation "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part" an intention implicit from the earliest Zionist writings, long before the dispossession or murder of 750,000 Palestinians in 1948 and everything which has happened since.

This site tracks all deaths and injuries from 2008 to date. The figures are sobering: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties ... fatalities

5520 Palestinians killed by Israel in that time

111,228 injured by Israel in that time.






Belligerent Savant » Thu May 24, 2018 12:13 am wrote:.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/05/ ... a-massacre



PROPAGANDA 101: HOW TO DEFEND A MASSACRE

An introductory course in massaging your crimes and dehumanizing your enemies…

If you are a human being, as you probably are, you might think it would be difficult to explain away the massacre of several dozen people. And you might think that it would be difficult to get justifications for mass murder printed in one of the world’s leading newspapers. You would, however, be mistaken. Propaganda defending murder is both simple to produce and alarmingly common in major media outlets.

In order to understand how people can defend acts that should shock the conscience, today we’re going to examine and dissect a particularly galling example. Last week, 60 Palestinians were killed, and 1700 wounded (including being permanently disabled) by the Israeli military during the Nakba protest, when Palestinians attempted to breach the fortified wall surrounding Gaza. Much of the news coverage in the New York Times was already disturbingly one-sided, and the paper ran a front-page story on how Palestinians’ deaths made Israelis feel (they “hoped every bullet was justified”) while suggesting that Gazans exploit their own suffering for “political” ends (it’s a place “where private pain is often paraded for political causes”). But yesterday, the paper topped itself, running an op-ed from Jewish Journal editor Shmuel Rosner entitled “Israel Needs to Protect Its Borders. By Whatever Means Necessary.”

Rosner fully justifies the massacre, with no apologies, regret, or second thoughts. He believes the killing of these Palestinians was correct, and that they deserved to die. Now you might, as I do, think this attitude is so self-evidently barbaric that even to debate it is to surrender a little bit of one’s humanity. But Rosner’s position is not a fringe one, and the good liberals at the New York Times consider it within the boundaries of reasonable discourse, so unfortunately we have not yet achieved the kind of world in which such thinking is “self-evidently” immoral. (This reflects very badly on all of us.)
I’d like, then, to go through Rosner’s argument paragraph by paragraph, to show how he constructs his defense of murder, why it might be persuasive to people, and why it fails and should horrify everyone.

Let’s begin:

ROSNER: It is customary to adopt an apologetic tone when scores of people have been killed, as they were this week in Gaza. But I will avoid this sanctimonious instinct and declare coldly: Israel had a clear objective when it was shooting, sometimes to kill, well-organized “demonstrators” near the border. Israel was determined to prevent these people — some of whom are believed to have been armed, most apparently encouraged by their radical government — from crossing the fence separating Israel from Gaza. That objective was achieved.

A few notes about what Rosner does here. First, he says that while it would be “customary” to sound apologetic about a massacre, he will avoid the “instinct” to be “sanctimonious” and admit that Israel had a “clear objective,” which it “achieved.” I put these words in quotes because each serves a particular function: “customary” makes it sound as if regret over deaths is mere arbitrary tradition rather than a humane reaction to suffering, “instinct” suggests that being saddened by suffering is irrational sentimentality, to be contrasted with cool reason. “Sanctimonious” suggests that feeling bad when your country murders people is mere self-interested virtue-signaling instead of the basic response of a moral human being. “Achieving objectives” is bureaucratic language, business language, a softer way to describe Israel’s actions that sounds rational (far more so than “shooting people through the neck,” which is what actually happened). We see, then, that in propaganda, as many words as possible should be carefully shaded in order to leave the impression that one is simply being reasonable and cool-headed, as opposed to the touchy-feely saps who cry when they see people being shot.

Propaganda Suggestion #1: You are not ideological, you are just following Reason where it leads you. Those who disagree with you are soft, irrational, emotional, feminine.

Elsewhere, we see other manipulative rhetorical tactics: “demonstrators” in quotes, and phrases like “believed to have been armed” and “apparently encouraged by their radical government.” “Apparently” and “believed to” are good ways to avoid having to present actual evidence; it doesn’t matter whether something was true if it was “believed to have been true.” “Radical” is another good propaganda word: You don’t actually have to analyze whether the other party has sound claims under moral principle and international law. It’s enough to say that they are “radical.” It’s an empty term, though: Radical just means “far away from mainstream orthodoxy.” If mainstream orthodoxy turns out to be horrendous, the radicals are correct. (The Radical Republicans, for instance, were vindicated by history.)

Propaganda Suggestion #2: You are being undermined and assaulted by radicals. It is said that the radicals are violent. It is believed that they are deranged and must be stopped.

ROSNER: Of course, the death of humans is never a happy occasion. Still, I feel no need to engage in ingénue mourning. Guarding the border was more important than avoiding killing, and guarding the border is what Israel did successfully.

“Ingénue”: grief is weakness, femininity, naïveté. Grief makes you a little French girl. Notice that the effects here are not achieved through arguments, but through subtle subconscious word association. Then, a false dichotomy: Either you believe in guarding the border, or you believe in “avoiding killing.” But there is no actual explanation of why those who crossed the border couldn’t have been arrested. Imagine if our own Border Patrol simply started shooting everyone in the head the moment they crossed into the United States. I dearly hope we would instantly recognize that “Well, guarding the border was more important than avoiding killing” would be no defense at all. In fact, Rosner’s op-ed is terrifying because the New York Times is presenting as reasonable an argument that, if accepted, could easily be used to justify the mass killing of undocumented people trying to cross into the United States. “Security” is so powerful and vague an idea that it can be used to justify absolutely anything.

ROSNER: Why so many thousands of Gazans decided to approach that fence, even though they were warned that such acts would be lethal, is beyond comprehension. Excuses and explanations are many: The event was declared a “march of return,” supposedly an attempt by Palestinian refugees to return to their places of origin within Israel; it was tied in many news reports to the opening of the American embassy in Jerusalem; it was explained by referring to undesirable living conditions in Gaza and the lack of prospects for improvement; it was explained as related to intra-Palestinian political conflict and to the need of Hamas, the terrorist group that runs Gaza, to divert the attention from its many failures. All of those things may have some degree of validity, but they don’t explain why people joined these demonstrations.

Gazans’ actions are apparently “beyond comprehension.” This single phrase is worth dwelling on. One step in dehumanizing people is setting them beyond our capacity to empathize with, whether it’s “animal” gang members or those with a “disease of the Arab mind.” Once people are placed “beyond reason,” then violence against them is easier to justify, because it’s The Only Language They Can Possibly Understand. This is constantly happening with Palestinians and Arabs generally: They are treated as unfathomable and fanatical, irrational monomaniacs without human complexity. Notably, Rosner sees his lack of comprehension as a sign of Gazans’ failure to be comprehensible rather than his own failure to comprehend them. Usually, motives are not totally inscrutable when we exercise empathy, as everyone is human, but propaganda is constantly attempting to portray the Enemy as fundamentally different from us, unreasoning brutes and barbarians who do not have sophisticated reasons for what they do.

Propaganda Suggestion #3: The enemy is not reasonable like you. They cannot be understood, for their motives are not rational. They are dark, violent, terrifying, deranged, You only have two options: Kill or be killed. Any killing you do is therefore necessary by definition.

We can also note, in this paragraph, a bit of nakedly fallacious reasoning: From the fact that there were several causes of the Palestinian protests, Rosner concludes that they are inexplicable and that the proffered causes must be “excuses.” Then there’s his statement that none of the listed factors “explain why people joined these demonstrations.” Unlivable conditions in Gaza combined with the anniversary of Palestinians’ expulsion from their ancestral land certainly seems enough to me, but those things make Palestinians sound quite rational so naturally they can’t be accepted as explanations.


More at link.
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Re: Palestine

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:12 pm

.

Belongs here as well.

Harvey » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:48 am wrote:
Roger Water's reposte is compelling:



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Re: Palestine

Postby Iamwhomiam » Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:52 pm

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Re: Palestine

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon May 17, 2021 2:09 pm

.

Harvey » Mon May 17, 2021 7:07 am wrote:
www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/05/what-is-left-for-palestine/

What is Left for Palestine?

May 17, 2021 by Craig Murray

Western media and politicians are now firmly coalesced around the Israeli government narrative. Israel is unwillingly fighting a war of self-defence in Gaza after hostilities were commenced by aggressive Hamas military attack. The storming of Al Aqsa mosque, the shooting at people in prayer, the right wing mobs attacking East Jerusalem, the Krystallnacht style destruction of Palestinian businesses and lynching of Arab Israelis, none of that ever happened at all. What happened was that Hamas launched a missile war and Israel was obliged, ever so reluctantly, to exercise its right of self defence, with enormous care not to hit civilians, except that, entirely accidentally, the IDF has killed a couple of hundred civilians including scores of children.

Palestinians die in the passive tense in western media. The media always says they “have died”; they were never “killed”, and there is virtually never any attribution of the death. By contrast, Israelis are active tense “killed by Hamas” or “killed by missile strikes”. Look out for this journalistic sophistry – once you see it, you can’t unsee it.

I used to be a firm opponent of missile strikes from Gaza. My view was firstly, that they cannot be militarily targeted so constitute an attack on civilians, secondly that they were a gift to Israeli propaganda, and thirdly that they were militarily ineffective. All of those remain true, and yet my view has changed and I find myself celebrating the fact that Hamas has, against all odds, managed to acquire more and better missiles. Part of that change of view is that I have come to see that there is no such thing as an innocent adult coloniser. But the bigger part is that I cannot see what on earth else the Palestinians are supposed to do.

Western politicians obviously believe that the Palestinians should accept apartheid quietly, and should have the good grace silently to wither away. The ultra-venal leaders of the majority of Arab states also wish the Palestinians would just die and allow them to enjoy the lavish personal benefits of their new alliances with Israel. It is absolutely plain there is no political process of any kind in train to alleviate the Palestinian plight, that even those “liberal” western politicians who floated the idea of a “two state solution” meant, at best, internationally recognised apartheid and bantustans. Joe Biden manages the remarkable feat of being still more zionist than Donald Trump.

Were I a Palestinian, I should undoubtedly have concluded that for an entire nation to turn the other cheek to a power which is seriously intent on genocide, is not a viable policy. Military resistance may seem hopeless, but sometimes to attempt to live with a shout of defiance and an effort to fight is the only dignified option remaining to a human.

It was a beautiful day in Glasgow yesterday for the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Committee demo, and it was great to be able to meet up again with so many magnificent and public-spirited people. It was an especially young crowd, which was excellent, and I was able to meet many Palestinians who drew comfort from the public support at a traumatic time.

Watching Mick Napier very much in charge of events, I was struck by the thought that there are so many really excellent and altruistic people who put their heart and entire lives into good causes for very little credit. Mick has been involved with SPSC as long as I can remember, has won important court victories in Scotland against ridiculous definitions of anti-semitism, and I have seen him at vigils on cold wet nights with a dozen people there. It made me realise how many Mick Napiers I have had the great privilege to know. We must not take the good-hearted for granted.
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Re: Palestine

Postby conniption » Fri May 21, 2021 10:08 am

John Pilger Interview: Israel is a LYING MACHINE, Palestine Has The Right to Resist!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49Ly1wZSxnw
May 19, 2021
Going Underground on RT
On this episode of Going Underground, we speak to legendary journalist and filmmaker John Pilger. He discusses why Palestine is still the issue in 2021, the Israeli aerial bombardment of Gaza which has claimed hundreds of lives, displaced over 50,000 and claimed the lives of over 63 children, the EU, US and UK role in the Israeli bombardment of Gaza, Palestine’s legal right to resist and Hamas as a part of a resistance provoked by Israeli occupation, the ‘media boycott’ of Gaza and why the mainstream media’s ‘both sides’ assertions are false, the entrenching Israeli illegal occupation of Palestine, the US-led campaign against China and the likelihood of war breaking out, China’s rise and memory of its ‘century of humiliation’ of dominance by imperialist powers, the persecution of Julian Assange and much more!
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Re: Palestine

Postby Harvey » Fri May 21, 2021 1:20 pm

Pilger has always been great at highlighting the essential capriciousness and venality of western culture in general. On the specifics he is equally good, as witnessed by his very many films and books over the years.

All of the films can be watched here: http://johnpilger.com/filmography
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Re: Palestine

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:03 pm

Image
https://x.com/aaronjmate/status/1710597 ... 37559?s=20

Killing of civilians by any side in any scenario is never justifiable.

Most reporting on this recent escalation will largely ignore the blood on the hands of Israel.
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Re: Palestine

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sat Oct 07, 2023 9:53 pm

@TheEyes2022

… For fuck sake, take a breath people. Keep the past 4 years in focus. How has this happened? Who could it possibly benefit? A few observations.

* Are people dying needlessly today? Yes, and it's horrific. Disgusting. Civilians should never suffer. I've seen more footage from Israel in the last hour than I've seen throughout the entirety of the Ukraine conflict. The footage has been ultra-effective from a 'divide and conquer' perspective. There's a reason for that.

* I've seen no such coverage of the inhumane and barbaric treatment of the Palestinan people that has been going on for decades at the hands of the Israelis. Palestinian men, women and children slaughtered in cold blood continuously. Treated worse than animals. There's a reason for that.

* The same people who rightly share their outrage at the murder of innocent Israelis, will delight at Israel's retaliations which will kill an untold number of Palestinian civilians. Rank hypocrisy. No life is worth more than another. It's all tragic.

* There's an outpouring of anti-muslim rhetoric. Our governments help fund and train Islamic fundamentalists when it fucking suits them. Think Syria. They also have close ties to some of the most brutal regimes on Earth. Think Saudi Arabia.

* Ukrainian fascists slaughtered ethnic Russians in the Donbas since 2014, but I saw no such hysteria among people. No outcry, because the media wasn't all over it. It was largely hidden from us. A massively different reaction if a Ukrainian cilvilian is killed by Russians. There was a reason for that.

* The Israeli government subjected its people to one of the most brutal covid-vaccination campaigns on planet Earth. They are murderous criminals for that reason alone. Are they too, not the enemy of ordinary Israeli people? Like our governments are our enemies?

* My takeaway from this. Something is not right. The following days will shed light on what has happened/or been allowed to happen here. I have a feeling that 9/11 style plot holes will appear as time goes on. War, confusion, strife and carnage benefit at tiny % of people on this planet. It's 2023. The same people who masked you up could have a hand in this. Questions need asking. At the same time there are reports of Ukrainian soldiers surrendering en masse to Russians.

Anyway, as always, civilians suffer. If this offends anyone, apologies, but we have to be fucking realistic here. Just look at Twitter today. Signing out.

https://x.com/TheEyes2022/status/171065 ... 67490?s=20
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Re: Palestine

Postby Grizzly » Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:01 am

Image
“The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it.”

― Joseph mengele
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Re: Palestine

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:08 pm

I wholeheartedly support Ukraine's right to defend its territory against Russian occupation.
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Re: Palestine

Postby Grizzly » Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:25 pm

I wholeheartedly support the current thing!
“The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it.”

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Re: Palestine

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:10 pm

What a fucking horror already, and much worse to come.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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Re: Palestine

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:57 pm

Image

Why does the complete non-response of Israel forces to the initial attack give me such a feeling of deja vu?
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Re: Palestine

Postby stickdog99 » Mon Oct 09, 2023 5:09 pm

https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/isr ... d-skirmish

The irruption in Israel caught many of us off guard. But to some extents it was a long-expected flashpoint escalation meant to begin the denouement of the Ukrainian conflict, by taking heat off from it.

There are many circulating accounts of all the things that seem “off” about Hamas’ attack, so I won’t recount every single point here as most of you have likely read them in multiple places; things like the very implausible breach of Israel’s high tech gates and defenses, to the unprecedented failures of Mossad and Shin Bet, to Netanyahu’s eerily scripted invocation of ‘Pearl Harbor’, which is very telling considering that Pearl Harbor was also a falseflag attack with the purpose of bringing the U.S. into WW2.

Image

Recall that Hamas was partly or entirely created by Israel—a fact confessed to by several high ranking Israeli officials—as a counterweight to the PLO, the dominant political group at the time. So it’s not out of the question that a group created by Israel and Western intelligence outfits can potentially still be under their control or at least infiltrated to the extent of being ‘steered’ into creating certain needed falseflags which could benefit Israel as a whole. This is supported by new evidence reportedly coming out that Hamas was using Ukrainian-supplied weaponry, which would indicate a fairly standard Western intel weapons pipeline a la the Contras, et al.

...

One of the most commonly utilized methods for a ‘strong man’ leader to assert his strength, win back support, and consolidate power is to foment some type of conflict which can be used to create “emergency” restrictions on opponents, suppression of political speech, etc. This is obviously a widely used tactic—most recently by Zelensky—and doesn’t need much explanation.

One can easily imagine how an embattled Netanyahu would seek to stir up a conflict to redirect patriotism and wreathe himself in “glory” by destroying Hamas once and for all, which would secure his power and legacy for all time.

Extrapolating this out, there could have been a convergence of mutually beneficial incentives. Knowing Netanyahu’s situation, the U.S./UK may have decided to work out a mutual deal by which multiple birds are killed with one stone. Netanyahu gets his power consolidation and glory, while U.S./UK get to potentially wage a war to weaken the now unstoppably ascendant Iran.

That brings us to the next big motivation. One of the chief reasons for this sudden flare up may be to instigate a much larger conflagration in order to fatally weaken Iran, which has been gaining inordinate geopolitical power lately. This isn’t mere speculation, but is now being openly hinted at in a variety of ways by the West.

Firstly the new bombshell that “Iran helped plan” this Hamas attack:

Image

...

And the slow rising chorus of Western politicians threatening Iran directly:

Image

...

If you’ll recall, the West has been chafing to clip Iran’s wings for the past year like never before. That’s because Iran has been getting increasingly dominant in the region, particularly following all the recent rapprochements, and as a result of how instrumental it’s been in the various energy wars and geopolitically—helping Russia in Ukraine, etc. Iran’s stock has risen enormously, and it was becoming far too large a threat.

Furthermore, recall the Syria theater has slowly begun activating lately as well, partly owing to the Ukrainian war, as a U.S. vector to weaken and divide Russian efforts. But also because Iran has been making headway there as well, with Israeli strikes being less effective and less frequent, while U.S. troops and bases have been under increased attack from Iranian proxies.

Assad, meanwhile, has likewise been growing in strength, jet-setting around the globe, making new deals. He met the Saudi minister for the first time since 2011, visited China for the first time since 2004, and other such feats.

Viewed from this holistic lens, we can infer that the U.S. hegemon may want to embroil the Middle East in a large conflict in order to weaken their increasingly strengthening adversaries.

...
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