Is Rigor compatible with Intuition?

[slimmouse]

Consciousness, or is that Mind?

I always balk when I hear the mind equated with consciousness; to me it's almost the opposite, mind is the least conscious part of us, just a program built on language and memory, really. It's that Logorific/Scientific viewpoint again.

Hi Gurrilla

I tried to distinguish Mind from brain.

To me at least, those are two different things.

For me, the brain fascilitates the hologram ( through the fourier tranform (sp?) process), within which the individuals mind/ Consciousness operates.

And of course we shouldnt forget the nervous system, which allows the the further function of the senses.

About which the ancients knew a thing or two, Hologram style

[guruilla]

Still not sure on what you or anyone means by "mind." If it's being used as a synonym for consciousness, why not just say consciousness?

Brain as center of consciousness is a relatively recent and localized view of how the body works, neurons being in the heart and intestines also apparently, and more holistic teachings positing consciousness in all the organs and the blood also, which tallies with recent quantum interpretations about electrons having spin, i.e., awareness.

Point being, where is this "mind" if not in the total body? Huxley posited a Mind at Large, an updated version of Godhead. Where'd that idea come from?

It's a hierarchical term/model. Probably relates to genital organization! No page at wiki for that litle Freudian nugget, this is from Prisoner of Infinity:

One result of the closing down of the child’s senses is what Freud called “genital organization,” which is when the life force becomes trapped inside, and limited to an association with, the genitals. In a larger sense, the erotic, sensual, body awareness is imprisoned in a matrix made up of early patterns of trauma and loss, patterns which have been woven together into a de-eroticized ego identity.

fn: “The turning point of the development is the subordination of all sexual partial-instincts to the primacy of the genitals, and thereby the subjection of sexuality to the function of reproduction. Originally it is a diffused sexual life, one which consists of independent activities of single partial instincts which strive towards organic gratification.”
Freud, “XXI. Development of the Libido and Sexual Organizations,” is in the 15th paragraph.

[BrandonD]

Still not sure on what you or anyone means by "mind." If it's being used as a synonym for consciousness, why not just say consciousness?

Brain as center of consciousness is a relatively recent and localized view of how the body works, neurons being in the heart and intestines also apparently, and more holistic teachings positing consciousness in all the organs and the blood also, which tallies with recent quantum interpretations about electrons having spin, i.e., awareness.

Point being, where is this "mind" if not in the total body? Huxley posited a Mind at Large, an updated version of Godhead. Where'd that idea come from?

From my point of view, both the body and the mind are distinct phenomena that are themselves existing within awareness. So like 2 stones sitting within a bag, the body does not exist within the mind and the mind does not exist within the body, something larger contains them both.

Inert material instruments cannot verify the primacy of of a perception that itself encompasses both the body and the mind, but living individuals can easily do so.

I think part of the confusion is that the body and mind are correlated to one another in a way that our senses cannot readily perceive, like two balloons moving along in tandem because they are tied to a child's hand, but the child herself is walking behind a wall.

We cannot reconcile the apparent body/mind dilemma because of this hidden assumption that one must exist within the other.

When I think of the strange way we perceive our world I picture a man with his head down, standing on the deck of a boat. He wonders if he is standing at the front or back of the boat, and so the captain slides a TV up to his feet, its screen showing the grainy black and white footage of a surveillance camera pointed at him. The picture is inconclusive.

I think I just accidentally rewrote Plato's allegory.

(edit: it just occurred to me that this "total body" that you are referring to might be the same "awareness" that I am referring to. As long as the total body includes the entirety of both the physical and mental worlds)

[guruilla]

Hmmm. Well you skipped the part about genital organization which I think is the most interesting avenue here. I think we tend to assume the existence of something called mind at such a basic, pre-verbal level that we never really question that assumption. If by mind we mean consciousness, then why not say so. If by mind we mean thinking, then why not say that? What is mind apart from thinking? And if mind is synonymous with thinking (rather than some discreet entity or organ that "thinks") then what is thinking/mind? Where does it come from?

Another thought (!) experiment: strip language away and what becomes of "mind"?

If mind as we are discussing it is built out of language then wouldn't that make it a "foreign installation," to use a term from elsewhere? I know some people think in images, and animals probably do also, but again, how's that different from consciousness and a function of the body?

On the other hand, when people talk about the psyche they almost invariably interchange it with "mind." The psyche is not the mind, the psyche is the soul. Mind as I understand it (and acc to Jungian/Kalshedian psychology) is something like a shattered fragment of the psyche that has taken dominance over the organism, a guardian or demiurgos that prevents the full body-psyche marriage from occurring (embodiment), as a result of trauma. In other words, what we call mind is more like a wound in awareness (the total body-psyche) than a feature of it.

Not sure how this relates to the OP, but sure it does somehow.

Oh, and this is how it relates to genital organization, which is also a splitting and compartmentalization of the life force as the result of trauma. This is all covered in Prisoner, in which Strieber, due to early trauma, turns his life force into a weapon ~ the mind/pen ~ and uses it to create a false reality or crucial fiction to preside over. Based on Strieber's example, I think this is how audience cults are made; maybe it's how our entire culture has come to be...?

[slimmouse]

Hey Gurilla thanks for the interesting reply.

I will readily confess to being largely, almost completely ignorant about Freud and Co. From the little Ive read and heard , I do prefer Jung.

Your post also got me to thinking that maybe the Mind is some kind of halfway house on the road to Consciousness, incorporating the nervous system as it does?

Cue music..... on a dark desert highway

On edit, Hi Brandon

[guruilla]

Heh, halfway house, on the road to sobriety/rehabilitation?

I think that could relate to how the ego forms as a necessary protection in our early years
so the psyche can gradually embody in a strange and hostile environment
due to excess hostility/trauma, the mind-identity that develops becomes a prison rather than a chrysalis: a suit of armor/mask that never comes off.
So we get stuck inside the halfway house.
Liminoids.

[slimmouse]

So, youre definitely inside the glass is half empty camp then?

[guruilla]

Yeah, and moving towards full emptiness!

[slimmouse]

Yeah, and moving towards full emptiness!

Oh, so its you thats filling my cup

[guruilla]

Yeah, and moving towards full emptiness!

Oh, so its you thats filling my cup

& now with all this yin-yang talk you got me guessing your gender.

[BrandonD]

Hmmm. Well you skipped the part about genital organization which I think is the most interesting avenue here. I think we tend to assume the existence of something called mind at such a basic, pre-verbal level that we never really question that assumption. If by mind we mean consciousness, then why not say so. If by mind we mean thinking, then why not say that? What is mind apart from thinking? And if mind is synonymous with thinking (rather than some discreet entity or organ that "thinks") then what is thinking/mind? Where does it come from?

Another thought (!) experiment: strip language away and what becomes of "mind"?

If mind as we are discussing it is built out of language then wouldn't that make it a "foreign installation," to use a term from elsewhere? I know some people think in images, and animals probably do also, but again, how's that different from consciousness and a function of the body?

On the other hand, when people talk about the psyche they almost invariably interchange it with "mind." The psyche is not the mind, the psyche is the soul. Mind as I understand it (and acc to Jungian/Kalshedian psychology) is something like a shattered fragment of the psyche that has taken dominance over the organism, a guardian or demiurgos that prevents the full body-psyche marriage from occurring (embodiment), as a result of trauma. In other words, what we call mind is more like a wound in awareness (the total body-psyche) than a feature of it.

Not sure how this relates to the OP, but sure it does somehow.

Oh, and this is how it relates to genital organization, which is also a splitting and compartmentalization of the life force as the result of trauma. This is all covered in Prisoner, in which Strieber, due to early trauma, turns his life force into a weapon ~ the mind/pen ~ and uses it to create a false reality or crucial fiction to preside over. Based on Strieber's example, I think this is how audience cults are made; maybe it's how our entire culture has come to be...?

Thank you for the comments. I might personally define the mind as something like "a complex within awareness composed entirely of language", and this definitely gives the impression of a foreign installation, just like you mentioned. From my perspective consciousness is greater than the mind in the hierarchy, because it also contains non-verbal awareness and perceptions. Though now I think I like the term you used "psyche" much better, it has an old-world romance about it.

I did kind of skip the "genital organization" subject because this seems specifically relevant to the discipline of psychoanalysis, a subject which I don't consider myself informed enough about to have a valid opinion. That area is still a bit murky to me, but you've presented it in an interesting way and certainly have my attention.

[guruilla]

I did kind of skip the "genital organization" subject because this seems specifically relevant to the discipline of psychoanalysis, a subject which I don't consider myself informed enough about to have a valid opinion. That area is still a bit murky to me, but you've presented it in an interesting way and certainly have my attention.

Just saw this now. Was thinking about GO recently, in terms of the de-pathologizing of divergent forms of sexuality (see gender thread) and how it can be viewed as both a good thing and a bad thing. Good because even the most conventional/socially endorsed forms of sexual expression may well be pathologies in the deeper context of the trauma-constructed identity self, GO, etc; we are so far from simply expressing our sexuality for procreative purposes. But this is going pretty far off topic, just that it intersects with other discussions at this forum.

As do the ways in which the push towards "postgenderism" would seem to go hand in hand with surgically removing our intuitive/instinctive faculties.

[tapitsbo]

Why pathologize these forms of expression instead of just letting them individuate or interact? I guess diagnosing it is part of that - they offer a challenge to each other as they form and co-exist

[DrEvil]

... Brain as center of consciousness is a relatively recent and localized view of how the body works, neurons being in the heart and intestines also apparently, and more holistic teachings positing consciousness in all the organs and the blood also, which tallies with recent quantum interpretations about electrons having spin, i.e., awareness. ...

It's been known for almost a century that electrons have spin. There's nothing controversial about that, so I'm curious what you mean by "recent quantum interpretations about electrons having spin, i.e., awareness."

[guruilla]

The recent part is interpreting spin as self-awareness; I'll find the quote when i get the chance.