Which gender are you?

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Which gender are you?

Female
8
14%
Male
37
66%
Alchemical Androgyne
5
9%
None of your business
3
5%
It's complicated
1
2%
Other
2
4%
 
Total votes : 56

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby American Dream » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:26 pm

http://briarpatchmagazine.com/articles/ ... amera-lens

Refocusing the Camera Lens

BY EVELYN DESHANE • JAN 19, 2016


Image
Debi Jackson’s speech about her child, AJ, went viral in 2014.

In 2014, a video of Debi Jackson addressing a large audience in Kansas City went viral. Jackson spoke about her initial confusion in relation to her child’s gender presentation. After Googling AJ’s behaviour, Jackson came across the possibility that her child was a transgender girl. Jackson then took AJ to a pediatrician and made an appointment with a child psychologist. But, as she tells the audience, what finally allowed her to accept her child as her daughter was AJ asking, “Mom, you know I’m really a girl, right?”

Jackson’s video made the rounds on LGBTQ platforms like Glaad.org, The Advocate, and Pasadena Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG), but it also had a wider audience through Huffington Post and on Facebook. It’s not the only widely shared video that features the story of a transgender child, though. A local Ohio news website ran a similar story about a young girl named Zay; I Am Jazz premiered on TLC; and Jacob’s Journey aired on NBC. There is no doubt that the new trope in transgender storytelling, be it in news media, documentaries, or reality TV, features a transgender child (usually with cisgender parents looming in the background) – but rarely do those stories benefit the child.

These narratives travel a familiar arc: parents think their child is “confused”; then they become concerned; finally, sometimes suddenly, they accept their child. As poet and professor Cat Fitzpatrick notes, these stories are “100 per cent about the parents, so that the kid and her desires and choices figure only [as] something for them to negotiate or overcome (with the help of doctors!).” These are stories constructed for a cisgender audience within a framework that privileges the heteronormative, nuclear concept of the family, but they are also part of a wider range of heteronormative assumptions about what constitutes queer success.

Transgender cultural critic Jack Halberstam has pointed out that, just as gay and lesbian successes have been measured by the fight for gay marriage, trans people’s success stories only count when they conform to white, able-bodied, cisgender, heteronormative standards. These standards of success are a smokescreen that distracts from more imperative queer social justice issues like poverty, housing, and HIV/AIDS. Halberstam, like many other trans authors, knows there is no room for solidarity when those in the trans community are forced to spend time vying for approval outside of it.

The narrative trope of the transgender child also assumes – indeed, commands – that being trans means both knowing you are trans when you are quite young and transitioning when you are young. This expectation obscures the fact that medical transition isn’t possible for many trans people, nor is it even necessary, and in some instances, it is not even wanted. By framing a successful (medical) gender transition through cisgender standards of what one gender should look like, the future for a trans child, teen, or adult denied these medical interventions disappears. Without more examples of what being transgender without surgery means, there is no option – and, often, no sense of hope – for many transgender youth.

In late December 2014, transgender teenager Leelah Alcorn committed suicide by jumping in front of a moving truck after her parents refused to let her transition and insisted that she instead go to conversion therapy. In her suicide note, she wrote that delaying her transition until after she was out of her parents’ house was a fate just as bad as death. Zander Mahaffey, a trans teen boy, also took his life for similar reasons.

Since Alcorn’s death, there has been an overwhelming focus on transgender youth, including videos like those about Debi Jackson and AJ. Many comments around the video seem to echo similar sentiments: If Leelah’s mother had been like Debi Jackson, Leelah might still be alive. Comments like these not only embed the lives and survival of trans children into cisgender parents’ expectations and acceptance, they ignore the fact that our current culture links the revelation of gender identity with immediate physical changes that are always vetted through cisgender standards of what it means to be one gender or another. These assumptions promote a narrow idea of what a body (and life) should look like.

YouTube videos like Debi Jackson’s, and the reality TV shows about transgender youth, are conversations between cis parents and cis audiences. While these stories can be encouraging, they cannot be the only ones we tell. To deconstruct these narratives, we need to challenge the importance of parental (and cisgender) approval, and support trans youth talking to other trans youth so they can determine what success means for themselves. After all, if children really are our future, why is it that we only measure them through the lens of adults’ assumptions?

Evelyn Deshane has appeared in Plenitude Magazine and the Rusty Toque, and is forthcoming in Tesseracts 19: Superhero Universe. Evelyn (pronounced Eve-a-lyn) received an MA from Trent University and is currently studying for a PhD at Waterloo University. For more information, see http://www.evedeshane.wordpress.com/
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby American Dream » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:23 pm

"In the “women’s communities,” transsexual existence is particularly threatening to white middle class lesbian-feminists because it exposes not only the unreliableness of the body as a source of their identities and politics, but also the fallacy of women’s universal experiences and oppressions. These valid criticisms against feminist identity politics have been made by women of color and working class women all along, and white middle-class women have traditionally dismissed them by arguing that they are patriarchal attempts to trivialize women’s oppression and bring down feminism…"

-Emi Koyama, Whose Feminism is it Anyway? The Unspoken Racism of the Transgender Inclusion Debate
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Sounder » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:24 pm

In this vid some social scientists from Norway argue that there is no difference between boys and girls other than genitalia.

They assert that biology plays no essential role.

The vid shows clearly how some absurdities can become articles of faith that are totally immune to penetration for this PC mindset.


All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby brekin » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:35 pm

Don't know if this case has been brought up. Saw this on television years ago and it was really heart breaking. There was also a book that came out about him, and then he killed himself some years ago. His twin brother who didn't have the reassignment surgery and the gender indoctrination also took his own life, so one can't say he took his own life because of his own ordeal, but it no doubt definitely contributed.

Not in the wiki but from what I remember from the television special was that as an adult he confronted the doctor that botched his circumscision with a gun, intent on possibly killing him, but the doctor burst into tears and said that he knew that he would someday be confronted by him and what he had done. He felt bad for the doctor and let him live.

Image

David Reimer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_ReimerDavid Reimer

Born Bruce Peter Reimer
August 22, 1965
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Died May 4, 2004 (aged 38)

Relatives Brian Henry Reimer (identical twin, deceased)
David Peter Reimer (August 22, 1965 – May 4, 2004) was a Canadian man born biologically male but raised female following medical advice and intervention after his penis was accidentally destroyed during a botched circumcision in infancy.[1]

Psychologist John Money oversaw the case and reported the reassignment as successful and as evidence that gender identity is primarily learned. Academic sexologist Milton Diamond later reported that Reimer failed to identify as female since the age of 9 to 11,[2] and transitioned to living as a male at age 15. Well known in medical circles for years anonymously as the "John/Joan" case, Reimer later went public with his story to help discourage similar medical practices. He later committed suicide after suffering years of severe depression, financial instability, and a troubled marriage.[3]


History[edit]
David Reimer was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba. He was originally named Bruce, and his identical twin was named Brian. At the age of six months, after concern was raised about how both of them urinated, the boys were diagnosed with phimosis. They were referred for circumcision at the age of seven months. On April 27, 1966, a urologist performed the operation using the unconventional method of cauterization,[4][5] but the procedure did not go as doctors had planned, and Bruce's penis was burned beyond surgical repair. The doctors chose not to operate on Brian, whose phimosis soon cleared without surgical intervention.[6]

The parents, concerned about their son's prospects for future happiness and sexual function without a penis, took him to Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore to see John Money, a psychologist who was developing a reputation as a pioneer in the field of sexual development and gender identity, based on his work with intersex patients. Money was a prominent proponent of the "theory of Gender Neutrality"—that gender identity developed primarily as a result of social learning from early childhood and that it could be changed with the appropriate behavioral interventions. The Reimers had seen Money being interviewed on the Canadian news program This Hour Has Seven Days, during which he discussed his theories about gender. He and physicians working with young children born with abnormal genitalia believed that a penis could not be replaced but that a functional vagina could be constructed surgically, claiming that Reimer would be more likely to achieve successful, functional sexual maturation as a girl than as a boy.[4] For Money, a case where identical twin boys were involved where one could be raised as a girl provided a perfect test of his theories.[7][8]

Money and the Hopkins team persuaded the baby's parents that sex reassignment surgery would be in Reimer's best interest. At the age of 22 months, baby Bruce underwent an orchidectomy, in which his testes were surgically removed. He was reassigned to be raised as female and given the name Brenda. Psychological support for the reassignment and surgery was provided by John Money, who continued to see Reimer annually for about a decade for consultations and to assess the outcome. This reassignment was considered an especially valid test case of the social learning concept of gender identity for two reasons: First, Reimer's identical twin brother, Brian, made an ideal control because the brothers shared genes, family environments, and the intrauterine environment. Second, this was reputed to be the first reassignment and reconstruction performed on a male infant who had no abnormality of prenatal or early postnatal sexual differentiation.

Reimer said that Dr. Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements", with David playing the bottom role. Reimer said that, as a child, he had to get "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks". Reimer said that Dr. Money forced David, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. Reimer said that Dr. Money also forced the children to take their "clothes off" and engage in "genital inspections". On at "least one occasion", Reimer said that Dr. Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities. Dr. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".[4]

For several years, Money reported on Reimer's progress as the "John/Joan case", describing apparently successful female gender development and using this case to support the feasibility of sex reassignment and surgical reconstruction even in non-intersex cases. Money wrote, "The child's behavior is so clearly that of an active little girl and so different from the boyish ways of her twin brother." Notes by a former student at Money's lab state that, during the follow-up visits, which occurred only once a year, Reimer's parents routinely lied to lab staff about the success of the procedure. The twin brother, Brian, later developed schizophrenia.[8]

Reimer had experienced the visits to Baltimore as traumatic rather than therapeutic, and when Dr. Money started pressuring the family to bring him in for surgery during which a vagina would be constructed, the family discontinued the follow-up visits. From 22 months into his teenaged years, Reimer urinated through a hole that surgeons had placed in the abdomen. Estrogen was given during adolescence to induce breast development.

His case came to international attention in 1997 when he told his story to Milton Diamond, an academic sexologist who persuaded Reimer to allow him to report the outcome in order to dissuade physicians from treating other infants similarly.[2] Soon after, Reimer went public with his story, and John Colapinto published a widely disseminated and influential account in Rolling Stone magazine in December 1997.[9]

This was later expanded into a full-length book As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl,[4] in which Colapinto described how—contrary to Money's reports—when living as Brenda, Reimer did not identify as a girl. He was ostracized and bullied by peers, and neither frilly dresses (which he was forced to wear during frigid Winnipeg winters)[10] nor female hormones made him feel female. By the age of 13, Reimer was experiencing suicidal depression, and he told his parents he would take his own life if they made him see John Money again. Finally on March 14th, 1980, Reimer's parents told him the truth about his gender reassignment, following advice from Reimer's endocrinologist and psychiatrist. At 14, having been informed of his past by his father, Reimer decided to assume a male gender identity, calling himself David. By 1987, Reimer had undergone treatment to reverse the reassignment, including testosterone injections, a double mastectomy, and two phalloplasty operations. On September 22, 1990, he married Jane Fontaine and became a stepfather to her three children.[citation needed]

Death[edit]
In addition to his difficult lifelong relationship with his parents, Reimer had to deal with unemployment and the death of his brother Brian from an overdose of antidepressants on July 1, 2002. On May 2, 2004, his wife Jane told him she wanted to separate. On the morning of May 4, 2004, Reimer drove to a grocery store's parking lot and took his own life by shooting himself in the head with a sawed-off shotgun.[11] He was 38 years old.[3]

Legacy[edit]
For the first thirty years after Dr. Money's initial report that the reassignment had been a success, Dr. Money's view of the malleability of gender became the dominant viewpoint among physicians and doctors, reassuring them that sexual reassignment was the correct decision in certain instances, resulting in thousands of sexual reassignments.[12]

The report and subsequent book about Reimer influenced several medical practices, reputations, and even current understanding of the biology of gender. The case accelerated the decline of sex reassignment and surgery for unambiguous XY infants with micropenis, various other rare congenital malformations, or penile loss in infancy.[12]

David Reimer has often been mentioned by Intactivists, who use him as an example of what could happen to a man if his parents decide to circumcise him at birth, and the effect it can have on him throughout his life. Only a few years after David Reimers birth, Canada began taking a stance against infant circumcision, and it is now uncommon there.[13]

Colapinto's book described unpleasant childhood therapy sessions, implying that Money had ignored or concealed the developing evidence that Reimer's reassignment to female was not going well. Money's defenders have suggested that some of the allegations about the therapy sessions may have been the result of false memory syndrome and that the family was not honest with researchers.[14]

The case has also been treated by Judith Butler in her 2004 book Undoing Gender, which examines gender, sex, psychoanalysis, and the medical treatment of intersex people. The case of Reimer is used to re-examine Butler's theory of performativity that she originally explored in Gender Trouble.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby American Dream » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:55 pm

A horrible case but one that has very little direct connection to any/all of the people I know living lives of/for Queer Liberation.

That said, Dr. John Money should be a subject of deep inquiry- if for nothing else being a kind of (institutionally connected) mad scientist toying with human lives in nonconsensual medical experiments that echo the worst sorts of Nazi brutality...
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby tapitsbo » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:56 pm

gentrified
genderfried
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby brekin » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:59 pm

American Dream » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:55 pm wrote:A horrible case but one that has very little direct connection to any/all of the people I know living lives of/for Queer Liberation.

That said, Dr. John Money should be a subject of deep inquiry- if for nothing else being a kind of (institutionally connected) mad scientist toying with human lives in nonconsensual medical experiments that echo the worst sorts of Nazi brutality...


Really? I think it points to what the experience is like for someone who feels like or identifies with a different gender (and perhaps who they are sexually attracted to) than what everyone is conditioning them to be. The turmoil and confusion David experienced I imagine is what many gay or transgender youth experience. Many people even feel like it was an accident they were born a certain sex. For David his accident happened after birth, but society, his family, his modified body and costume were all continually determining a role he was supposed to play while he believed otherwise. I think it also tangentially speaks to/informs the debate whether being gay or straight is biologically determined or learned and shows how little we still know. If anything, it is about subscribing to ideologies that maim people on all sides of the gender and sexual identities.

And it was consensual in that he was a minor and the parents gave consent. Money was just a implementer of the ideology, that "gender is between the ears, and sex is between the legs". I agree his methods are seemingly crude now, but if he believed this theory then I believe he was probably genuine in wanting David to adjust as well as he could. And if he could help David, who had a male twin as a control, then he could potentially helped thousands, millions of others from suffering needlessly. The tragedy is not that Money just experimented with David and failed, but that he pulled out all the stops to prove the theory right for years with traumatic indoctrination, a social lie, hormones, and surgery. Many people subscribe to the very same idea that gender is just determined by society/learned but they don't have a couple with an infant that has had his penis removed at the door. What is scary is that if Money believed that, and continued to do so with what was happening with David over the years, what chance do people who believe but never have to implement this ideology?

To me this is a real classic tragedy, because everyone involved, the circumcision surgeon using the latest technology, the psychologist using the latest research, the concerned parents, David, were all most likely trying to do what they thought was right and best for everyone at the time.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby American Dream » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:09 am

I do have biases in this as I think the hegemony of the gender binary is itself a big problem and that kids are systematically abused and manipulated by people with more social power (i.e. adults). I'm also not remembering fully all the details of this particular case.

That said, I have the distinct impression that John Money used little kids to test out his own pet theories about the mutability of gender identity, not necessarily caring much at all whether it was actually good for them or not.

This makes me think of the notorious South African military abuser known as "Dr. Shock"- Aubrey Levin and his nonconsensual experiments oriented towards changing gender and sexuality. All of that in turn makes me think of the deepest, darkest sorts of medical abuses from the Nazi death camps.

I don't have a positive impression of Dr. Money at all- definitely am for autonomous gender liberation.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby brekin » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:09 am

American Dream » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:09 pm wrote:I do have biases in this as I think the hegemony of the gender binary is itself a big problem and that kids are systematically abused and manipulated by people with more social power (i.e. adults). I'm also not remembering fully all the details of this particular case.
That said, I have the distinct impression that John Money used little kids to test out his own pet theories about the mutability of gender identity, not necessarily caring much at all whether it was actually good for them or not.
This makes me think of the notorious South African military abuser known as "Dr. Shock"- Aubrey Levin and his nonconsensual experiments oriented towards changing gender and sexuality. All of that in turn makes me think of the deepest, darkest sorts of medical abuses from the Nazi death camps.
I don't have a positive impression of Dr. Money at all- definitely am for autonomous gender liberation.


Mostly agreed, and this is probably more of a quibble, but I think Money's pet theories were probably seen as progressive for the time and perhaps still are in some circles. And the thing with liberation is, not only are you liberating away from something, but liberating towards something. So the perennial question is, do you know where are you going to? Money himself was saying forget about what nature had planned, we are going to liberate you from biology as destiny and you (the family in this case deciding for David) get a second chance/choice. I'm all for autonomous gender liberation to, but again in this case, the person can't make the decision for themselves because they are 1. an infant 2. their male sex organ is permanently gone. So, circumstances had already dictated some terms and as in most all current societies having a penis makes you a male and not having one makes you a female the supposed trajectory of David's life would be to go through life as a "not really a male or almost female" (I think from the television special I recall the adult David had a penis transplant or procedure where he could have intercourse with his wife, but that could be wishful thinking). And if (holding to the theory again that gender is learned) they decided to let David make the decision himself when he was older, then the decision would already be made, because they would have had to raise and socialize him as one gender anyways (He grew up as Brenda). It would be great if gender classification wasn't so binary, but I think David's case illustrates that, that is a hard road to blaze alone. So sure, Money could be a Mengele rat bastard like the others, and I haven't delved too deeply into the story to know for sure, but imho it is a little too tidy to just explain away this really tragic and unique situation by putting the blame solely on him as a sadistic crank in a white lab coat.

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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby American Dream » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:20 am

Yeah- NAMBLA and other such paedophile advocacy groups tried to get a free pass under the liberation tide of the early 70's,is my first thought. So if Dr. Money tried too, it would not not be so surprising.

I've seen some families of transgender kids speak and can not fault the parents who support their kids for their efforts.

I do think the crisis of gender conformity is questionable, am less interested in the need to fit in to a world where the binary is hegemonic and more into the idea of queering our sensibilities a bit more. So perhaps I've copped an attitude about John Money but hey this is RI, so it might be ok to look for the questionable and/or nefarious in people with some social/institutional power.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby jakell » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:09 am

American Dream » Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:20 am wrote:Yeah- NAMBLA and other such paedophile advocacy groups tried to get a free pass under the liberation tide of the early 70's,is my first thought. So if Dr. Money tried too, it would not not be so surprising.

I've seen some families of transgender kids speak and can not fault the parents who support their kids for their efforts.

I do think the crisis of gender conformity is questionable, am less interested in the need to fit in to a world where the binary is hegemonic and more into the idea of queering our sensibilities a bit more. So perhaps I've copped an attitude about John Money but hey this is RI, so it might be ok to look for the questionable and/or nefarious in people with some social/institutional power.



'Queering our sensibilities' eh? I reckon you've outdone yourself with that one.
I think I'll give it a pass until I understand what it means.

Going back to that gender conformity 'crisis'. Is it the conformity you find questionable, or the resistance to it?
..or, which would be my own angle, the suggestion that there is a 'crisis'.


ETA: Did you mean querying? that would make more sense. It's just that you have use the word 'queer' quite a lot in odd contexts, so this sort of seemed par for you.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Sounder » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:27 am

Being that my male status is mixed with a fare share of 'feminine' traits, I am supportive of gender fluidity.

Still as one example in the vid posted above showed; Women tend to like the company of others when under stress, while men tend to like to be alone when under stress. Also in more developed countries where gender choice is more open, the sexes express themselves through stereotypical occupations even more than in the less developed countries.

The Norwegian social scientists seem quite absolutist and faith based in their theory that all is nurture, with nature becoming a mere appendage to be cut off.

The folk here that seem to believe this sort of thing, at least by implications of their associations do best to ignore the issue.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby jakell » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:31 am

Sounder » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:27 pm wrote:Being that my male status is mixed with a fare share of 'feminine' traits, I am supportive of gender fluidity.

Still as one example in the vid posted above showed; Women tend to like the company of others when under stress, while men tend to like to be alone when under stress. Also in more developed countries where gender choice is more open, the sexes express themselves through stereotypical occupations even more than in the less developed countries.

The Norwegian social scientists seem quite absolutist and faith based in their theory that all is nurture, with nature becoming a mere appendage to be cut off.

The folk here that seem to believe this sort of thing, at least by implications of their associations do best to ignore the issue.


Seems that Greta Garbo was a trailblazer in this respect.

Was the line about cutting off appendages intentional BTW?
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Sounder » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:59 am

Was the line about cutting off appendages intentional BTW?


About a second after coming into my head the thought gained intentionality.
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Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Project Willow » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:31 pm

On cultural and medical responses to intersex conditions see the work of Alice Dreger:

http://alicedreger.com/sex_and_gender

There may be some food for thought in this smattering of ideas:

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